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I'm sorry Janus, but this is wrong. If we assume that Yoda goes into this fight with the intent to kill (like he did with Sidious), he will butcher Dooku.

No, it's not. In the Episode III novelisation, Dooku notes that he knows each weakness of the form itself. Even though Yoda's amazing skill makes him head and shoulders above any other Ataru user, Dooku still recognizes the form. I'm not saying he's a better fighter than Yoda, but he's one of the few who could hope to contend with him.

You're also totally ignoring something about the same passage in Dark Rendezvous:

Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground[...]

Page 315.

This is a clear indicator of Dooku's level of fighting at this point. The narration describes only Mace Windu as a possible equal on neutral ground with no advantages either way. Yoda is obviously implied, since he's better than Mace, but I brought this point up because of your assertion that Dooku is somehow less than Mace.

You should also note too that Dooku had chances to kill Yoda twice before Yoda had even begun to fight, and yet he did not. Yoda himself notes it. Dooku fears Yoda because he knows he will never surpass him, and he loves him even though he has essentially betrayed him. But to assume that this fear would override common sense in a pitched Versus battle every single time would be like claiming that in every single fight Luke Skywalker's going to go apeshit and knock Vader around like a pinata.

Dooku is noted as a peer of Mace Windu, who is quite frankly a prodigy among Jedi Masters. I don't think either one of them could stomp Yoda unless they could make him work his wind out (Since Yoda does push his body more than anyone else using the Force. In all his major fights, he becomes exhausted quickly and breathes hard.) But the idea that Yoda stomps him with no effort is silly. It's important to note that during the first part of their duel on Vjun, Dooku is baiting Yoda, not trying to annihilate him. He did a similar thing with Skywalker.

So, what do we know from Dark Rendezvous? Yoda and Dooku aren't really that close in power. Ventress even tries to persuade Dooku to attack Darth Sidious from Vjun -- using dark side power and his CIS armies -- but Dooku was too afraid to (he also expressed the same fear in Labyrinth of Evil).

I seem to recall Dooku being uncertain of his chances for destroying Sidious who is firmly entrenched as the chancellor and has the loyalty of the Republic and its winning army. I don't blame him for not wanting to chance it, since he could stand to lose everything. Dooku never does anything without a contingency plan, in case we've learned nothing from his antics. In AotC, he has one. Dark Rendezvous. Even RotS (Though it wasn't his best, obviously).

Dooku being afraid he might lose doesn't strike me as clear that he would lose. Mace Windu certainly didn't have any major problems putting Sidious on his ass, and he's Dooku's peer by deed and by the words of the novel you cite. Yoda fought an uphill battle with Sidious who, to his credit, managed to keep the green guy at bay while on that tiny center pod. But even then Sidious was saved by a rail on a pod and not by superior saber mastery or Force usage, since Yoda WTFpwned his Sith Lightning and chucked his pod back at him like it was a toy.

I realize I'll probably be buried in a bunch of Sidious-stroking information gleaned from all sorts of sources but the movies themselves citing his uberness and how he's the best thing since Xendor to happen to the dark side, but I've made my point.

Stark wrote:Did he really just say 'Dooku recognises Yoda's fighting style, thus they are equal fighters'?

I expected this to happen. Escape, excuse me if I don't address every single detail tonight, but it's late and I should really be winding down for the night.

I beg your pardon? Janus, tell me that you aren't quoting Count Dooku himself on the issue, and expect it to hold any water. Dooku -- legendary for hubris and arrogance -- and the exact quote was that he knew the weaknesses of "Ataru and it's ridiculous acrobatics". He obviously has no respect for the form -- despite the fact that it's user made him flee from battle twice; both on Separatist strongholds and one in a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force.

Sidious has a lot to say about Anakin's abilities and powers which everyone gobbles up, but if Dooku says anything he's apparently full of shit? Interesting how that works...

1. You assume that Dooku's statement is false.
2. You say he was forced to retreat by Ataru twice. You gloss over the details and fail to recognize the following: that the first time Dooku took his leave, he realized he could not take the time to defeat Yoda while the Republic was attacking Geonosis. This is called being smart. Even if he defeated Yoda that day, the battle would have been too hard earned, and then Mace or fifty clone troopers would have jumped him and his coup would be over. He's not so arrogant and stupid as to ruin his idealistic plan just to sate his ego. The incident on Vjun was broken off by Dooku because Anakin and Obi-Wan were infiltrating the castle and he would likely not be able to contend with all three when the time came. Again, he acted in prudence. He was not forced down by Yoda's Ataru mastery; nothing ever indicates such. In AotC film, Yoda's saber blitz does nothing to penetrate Dooku's defenses. If anything, Dooku shows the ability to keep up with Yoda unlike anyone else save maybe Sidious. And there's still that nagging suspicion that Yoda disarmed Sidious since the Sith Lord's suddenly missing a saber less than two minutes into their duel.
3. You also gloss over the fact that Dooku's been sparring with Yoda since before Mace Windu was a twinkle in his mother's eye, and his apprentice Qui-Gon was also a master in Ataru. To say he was unfamiliar with its purpose and use is folly. To say he was beaten by it is clearly false. And to assume that he does not know it enough to defeat it is worse. Makashi is the duellist' form, and its expertise is lightsaber fighting, period.

...Your point? General Grievous recognized all seven forms and managed to somewhat duplicate Vaapad (which is proven to be deadlier than Makashi itself). Does that mean he is suddenly able to outduel Mace or Dooku? I should think not, since Obi-Wan readily destroyed him in combat.

Poor comparison. Grievous was not a Force-sensitive combatant, but a hastily trained killing machine who operated best when he either attacked from secrecy or with shock troops supporting him. When he was alone against Jedi, he oftentimes got his just desserts. But if you expect me to believe that Grievous' dabbling in forms somehow compares with Dooku's saber mastery and his experience with other forms, you're sadly mistaken. The two operate nothing alike, and Grievous does not have the expertise, Force capability, and experience the former Jedi does.

No, Janus, he can't contend with him. We've already proven that Yoda has never fought Dooku on terms that he is looking to kill him or to take him out of the fight permenantly.

Actually, this is wrong. Yoda does say in Dark Rendezvous at one point that he loves Dooku enough to know he has to destroy him. And even then, Dooku can contest with him. It's only when Dooku notices that Anakin and Obi-Wan are very close via the holoscreens that he plays his trump card.

And the quote refers to that Mace might be the only one as his equal, not that he is perhaps Mace's equal.

Perhaps you should read it again:

Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground[...]

Page 315.

That's a source as valid as anything written about Shatterpoint and Vaapad claiming that on neutral ground, Mace Windu is perhaps his only equal among the Jedi. Reread that sentence at least three times before you reply, please. Shatterpoint and Dark Rendezvous are both C-canon, and the point stands.

Furthermore, Vaapad in and of itself is stated to be the "deadliest form" and given its nature against darksiders, it would be in Mace's favor.

Vaapad is noted as "deadliest of all" by Yoda briefly in his conversation with Palpatine, although he notes also that it is inherently dangerous. Yoda's meaning is a bit ambiguous; he says its a powerful form, but unstable. However, since Yoda's never even practiced Vaapad, I can't exactly call him an expert. Vaapad is noted for its blinding speed and straddling the darkness without succumbing to it and this combined with Mace's shatterpoint makes him perhaps the best Jedi fighter in the Order next to Yoda and Dooku despite his young age.

However, there's nothing to support that Vaapad is better than Makashi overall. I believe that Mace's physical strength plays more to his favor than anything else, really, since he's a damn tank. However, Dooku's level of blade mastery is up there, and c-canon sources that call Vaapad "deadly" also call the creator a potential equal for the only living Makashi master.

So I really don't see where you think Mace can just smash Dooku. It's not like Dooku's going to get kicked on his ass and then be stupid enough to keep frying his own face.

Dooku certainly isn't superior to Mace in bladework.

1. On-screen depiction of his fighting shows otherwise. Movie canon >>>>> c-canon.
2. Even c-canon supports that Dooku is on Mace's level as of DR. Yoda cannot floor him easily, and no fight between them ever comes to conclusion since both battles were broken up beforehand. As for two Magnaguards waylaying Mace, BFD. Supervillains love cannonfodder, but that doesn't mean they can't fight when they need to. You citing that he let his droids distract Mace doesn't take away from his proven abilities; it simply reinforces how much you're willing to grab at to disprove his abilities. You compliment him with one word and slander him with another.

Dooku was tempted by Yoda to return to the light side. I never denied that Dooku didn't reciprocate Yoda's feelings, but the bottom line is that when it came down to a fight, Dooku sought to kill Yoda, whereas Yoda didn't seek to do the same.

This is wrong. Reread the battle. Yoda says he will destroy him shortly after that, out of love for him.

...Am I to assume then, that the disparity between Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos is likewise very slim? Even though no one wanted to screw with Ragnos on his death-bed, by all means, your logic still applies here. Dooku fears Yoda for a reason. It's an acknowledgement of superiority. The circumstances of the fight itself serve to show how far they are in power.

You seem to be full of poor comparisons lately.

Neither Naga Sadow, nor Ludo Kressh or the others of the Sith High Council so much as raised a blade to Ragnos for his century long reign. He was noted both in narration and by sources as the strongest of the strong in that era, and even before his spirit the two Sith lords bowed. This is in a society where if one can kill the other, he does so, through treachery or through combat.

You are comparing this with Dooku's respect for Yoda on a subconscious level (How he still refers to him as master) and how Dooku thinks about how much Yoda did for him to help him remain humble and how he wanted to save him from himself, and Dooku feared Sidious' jealousy, but he also feared that he was lost and that he could never return. So he struck at Yoda, meaning to kill him, and yet for all his chances, he never did. Even when he had the time to manage two attacks on Yoda (the first of which the jedi master is not even noted as being able to sense or move from) he doesn't kill his master.

And yet he still combats him twice and manages to keep pace with Yoda who can beat Mace Windu. Yoda who can beat Sidious. Yoda who can bitchsmack just about anybody so long as they're knee-level.

I don't see these two scenarios being alike, I'm sorry.

Comparing Dooku to Windu is pointless, especially in terms of a fight. Whilst both are prodigies, Windu ultimately wields the deadlier form and -- along with his ability to detect weaknesses - Vaapad's special properties allow it to negate dark side advantages.

1. Windu's form is noted as being deadly, yet c-canon notes that they are for all intents and purposes at least equals. Taking place after Shatterpoint chronologically and written afterwords, DR places a conditional "perhaps" besides Mace, btw. Keep that in mind. And shatterpoint and his "superconductor loop" don't make him superior to every Sith he fights; Dooku doesn't give in to the Dark Side and hack away like some moron. Likewise, Dooku wouldn't be so stupid as to try and shock Mace to death. It's not like Dooku doesn't know Mace Windu and didn't fight him before.

Who said it was effortless? I said that Yoda would butcher him. Not take a shit on him. But the fact remains, they aren't near-equals like you try to portray.

Dooku is not Yoda's near-equal in wisdom and Force-mastery, I agree. But in saber mastery, he can hold his own. I believe ultimately Yoda may prevail in any neutral ground, pitched battle. However, I disagree with your assertion that Yoda would "butcher" him. This is unproven nonsense.

Really, because I could have swore that Dooku professed he will enjoy killing Yoda.

Like I said, reread the passage again, Escape. Dooku is grinning and goading Yoda on to use the Dark Side as he backsteps and deflects blows. This is now what someone does who's out to kill quick and easy. Nerfing his only two potshots also doesn't fit that criteria. Here's something you hadn't considered- subconsciously, Dooku's bluffing, and he loves his master too much to really give in and kill him. Even Yoda notes that Dooku is not lost at this point and good remains, and Dooku nearly is redeemed if he hadn't seen Skywalker and blown an artery.

Yoda breathes hard only once (and it was likely a sigh, unless you have a source that confirms exhaustion, in which case I'll concede the point) during his fight with Dooku in AotC. I don't recall him ever doing so with Sidious.

Did you actually watch that fight more than once? Yoda was breathing hard every single time they parted. He was like an asthmatic running the mile while tugging a grand piano on his back. I didn't see Yoda breath as heavy fighting Sidious, but then Sidious was disarmed in what? Two minutes? And then when Yoda fell down for the first time in the fight, he was down and out. He was not only way too far down to make a comeback, he could barely move. Obi-Wan gets choked and thrown across a room and crushed with a walkway and he's in better shape than Yoda after a duel.

You would, wouldn't you? That particular topic almost annoys me as much as suggesting that Yoda and Dooku are close -- despite on hand evidence contradicting it. Janus, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku. You need to accept it.

I've never been so sure as to why you must constantly fight me and get upset because I don't worship Sidious. It's not like I don't like the character- far from it. I just don't buy into his fanboy cult like everyone else does these days. Sidious in the movies is not the most impressive Sith Lord of all time. He certainly doesn't outduel anyone save three Jedi who couldn't defend themselves with two minutes' prep and he doesn't outperform any Sith Lord like Kun, Nihilus, etc. You can soak up all these obscure, half-assed quotes about how uber he is that are ratified by movie-centric secondary sources, but it doesn't move me. DE Sidious may be VERY strong, and I don't doubt that. DE Sidious is probably able to use the Force to rip Yoda's balls off. But as of RotS? He's a chump among greats. You need to either accept this, or agree to disagree because I am not going to be swayed by your hot-headed banter.

In Labyrinth of Evil, when Dooku discovers that the Jedi are hunting Sidious down, he has a moment where he realizes that this information could unearth the Sith Lord's identity and destroy him. He was the one who informed Sidious that the Jedi now had the means to expose him.

Yet for a second, he "imagines the power that could be his" if he didn't tell Sidious. Then he goes ahead and tells him anyway, because he's Sidious's *****.

And he's that way for a damn reason.

Oh, right, I'm sure that Dooku's motivations to protect Sidious had everything to do with him being inferior in lightsaber and Force combat and nothing to do with the grand plan they had to rule the galaxy in an idealistic, post-Republic society. Yes, it had everything to do with his capabilities against Sidious and nothing to do with his political machinations. Considering Dooku is described as "Machiavellian", I don't see how you can assume otherwise, but if this is all you have, fly with it.

Do you even have a canon source that shows clearly Dooku has sparred with Sidious and lost? Or shows that Sidious is superior in saber mastery to Yoda and Mace Windu, the former of whom Dooku can contend with, the latter of whom is his equal?

Didn't think so. All you have are bias and conjectures.

Dooku stood to lose everything before. He risked death on Geonosis. He risked death on Vjun. He risked death with Skywalker and Obi-Wan in Labyrinth of Evil (Anakin nearly crushes him by collapsing a ceiling onto him). Hell, Darth "treachery is the way of the Sith" Tyranus stood to lose everything by associating with Sidious in the first place.

Don't try to pass it off that he was willing to kill Sidious but didn't do so because he "might not" win. He didn't do it because he knew he couldn't.


It amuses me how much your bias shows through when this argument comes up. You literally lose yourself in it.

Escape, you again argue against the proven facts and make your own assertions and conjectures as the gospel truth.

Fact: Dooku is Machiavellian and a political idealist who wants to use Sidious' machinations and his own ideas to make a new society.

Fact: Dooku does not take any chances if he doesn't have to. He has backup plans. At Geonosis, he had a backup plan. At Vjun, he had a backup plan. In LOE, he had a backup plan. He's still be alive if he hadn't put his faith in Sidious, which was his greatest mistake.

Conjecture: Dooku didn't kill or betray Sidious in a complex war situation which could jeopardize the goals he betrayed the Jedi Order for, murdered his best friend for, and lived in exile for three years, ergo he couldn't hold a candle to him in personal combat.

See the difference? Dooku doesn't become a pussy cat in combat simply because he serves Sidious. Hell, Maul served Sidious and respected his wisdom and powers and he nearly tagged the Dark Lord.

And, curious, for some reason, Darth "Treachery is the way of the Sith" Tyranus never tries to betray his master, even when he is in a position to ruin his plans.

It's because really, Dooku is more a dark jedi than he ever was a Sith Lord. He fell into the Sith because he grew disgusted with the Jedi and thought Sidious could answer his prayers, but when it comes down to it, Dooku is less of a Sith than anyone else who held the title. But that's neither here nor there; if you don't respect him because he didn't backstab Sidious, good for you. It has no bearing no this debate.

Yes, but tell me why -- if Dooku fears Sidious -- Sidious doesn't fear Dooku? Surely there must be a reason, Janus.

Dooku fears Sidious as he fears the unknown. He never says or thinks that Sidious is his better in combat. He certainly doesn't herald Sidious as a lightsaber master; he cites Jedi who have skills as opposed to fellow Sith. Dooku needs Sidious in order to make his dream come true.

But really, Sidious doesn't fear Dooku? Sidious didn't fear Mace or Yoda either. Look where that got him.

Janus... this is bullshit and you know it. Mace wields the "deadlier" form (confirmed in Shatterpoint). Mace's Vaapad negates dark side advantages (confirmed in the RotS novelization). Dooku fled from Mace and used Magnaguards to keep him distracted. I don't doubt that they're peers in terms of ability, but Vaapad will take whatever Sith-inspired advantage that Dooku has and completely destroy it.

Ugh, this again.

1. The form is noted as "deadliest" by Yoda, who does not even practice it. This quote is third-person C-canon. DR, which takes place later, has narration which cites Mace as a potential equal to Dooku on neutral grounds. This is a narration c-canon quote. Last I checked, narration was "God's eye" POV, while third person is subject to personal failings. You stated as much yourself about Dooku's views on Ataru. Somehow, Yoda is the expert at Vaapad which he doesn't even practice while Dooku must be some saber ignoramus when his master and his apprentice both mastered the form. And I'm sure Qui-Gon just pulled that saber form out of his ass, because all Dooku taught him was how to pluck his eyebrows.
2. Mace's Vaapad allows him to channel his own darkness and to redirect others'. This does ****-all in a situation where someone's not hurling lightning at him or going apeshit using the darkside. One thing you fail to notice about Dooku is that he doesn't have to rely on the darkside to fuel his already formidable lightsaber duelling skills; he has already honed them to perfection. Dooku doesn't give in to the dark side to fight Yoda on Geonosis; hell, he didn't even break a sweat. What makes you think Vaapad will "omfg cruch him!!111"?
3. Dooku let his goons delay Mace. Woot. Vader lets his stormtroopers attack Luke. OMFG... he could never ever beat him!!!!1111 It's proof, I swear!!!111////...ONEONEELEVEN

An uphill battle? This isn't the half-assed Yoda who battled Dooku, Janus.

Half-assed Yoda, eh? So Yoda not even doing his best against Dooku gets out of breath after exactly sixty seconds duelling? Doesn't speak much for Yoda actually trying, does it?

This is "Destroy-the-Sith-we-must!" Yoda who fought Sidious.

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you, I do."

- Yoda, P 316-317, Dark Rendezvous.

The same Sidious who did more than hold him at bay.

Sidious, to his credit, was able to contend with Yoda on the platform. However, he's then suddenly saberless, and even with the high ground Yoda manages to get back to his level and then whup his ass in a Force duel. So yeah, he did more than hold him at bay. He got tooled by him.

And certainly not inferior, either.

This is bias. Sidious was clearly shown to be weaker in the Force, as happened when Yoda pushed back from being bent over backwards with Sidious' strength and then floored with the shockwave. Yoda took several situations of disadvantage and turned it against Sidious. He disarmed the dark lord, nearly flattened him with his own thrown senate pod, got back up to him dispite being rained down upon and then came back from the brink to pwn Sidious in a major no-holds-barred Force clash. On neutral ground, Yoda would have killed Sidious faster than Mace did. On neutral ground and even with the element of fear on his side, Yoda never did this to Dooku.

"WTFpwned his Sith lightning" and "chucked his pod at him like it was a toy"? Are you seriously debating this objectively? If you'd like to diminish character feats, I'm all game, Janus. The point is that I give Dooku more credit than you ever gave Sidious.

I love this. Suddenly I'm "diminishing character feats" when I cite real and evident instances of Sidious being defeated, yet you are suddenly someone who gives Dooku his full credit by calling him a worthless patsy who can't defeat Sidious, isn't Anakin's better, isn't Mace's equal, and sucks because he's too smart and too calculating to throw himself into a death match with every third saber wielder in the series while sacrificing his life's dream? Oh yes, I'm so horrible, Escape. I'm showing horrible bias here, not you. You debate objectively.

a.) Yoda's grimace of obvious pain contradicts your entire "WTFpwnage" assessment. The fact that Yoda was only able to push the blast directly in between them (he doesn't hit Sidious with it) doesn't speak of superior Force. He wasn't able to overpower Sidious with it, as it detonated right in between them, seemingly nearly equal distance apart.

What is this shit? Are you daft?

Let me spell it out for you:

Yoda grabbed Sidious' Sith Lightning with his hands a point blank range while barely hanging on to the slick senate pod with his toeclaws, absorbed the shock and the power and then forced it back, causing Sidious to freak out, and then released the energy forward, which shot Yoda back since he had no traction and nothing to hold on to while Sidious was saved by a handrail.

You need to accept this as evident and move on. I remember Nai, myself and others reiterating this point from the movie, complete with scans and links, and yet you refused to admit it. Please, Escape... don't diminish character feats because you like Sidious. That's bias.

b.) The pod stuff is also bullshit. Sidious tossed three pods into the air in direct defiance with gravity while laughing his ass off, whereas Yoda struggled to stop one.

LMFAO.

Is anyone else reading this?

Hey, everyone... did you all remember the scene in Episode III where Yoda caught a senate pod hurled right at him in the blink of an eye? If you have eyes and you watched the fight scene more than once, you might want to remind Escape how this scene really went and not how it appeared in his mind.

And we come back to my big question. I don't want to flame you, Janus, and I'm not going to. But, for once, can you argue ****ing objectively or do you still think Dooku is more powerful than Sidious?

You seem to ignore something here, Escape: I do argue as objectively as I can. You can see above, my post was complete with direct sources, comparison of said sources, elaboration on my stances and my assertions, and clarification where you had merely glossed or "diminished character feats". The bottom line is that you are so much of a Sidious fanboy that your mind can't wrap around the fact that you have absolutely no conclusive evidence to support that Dooku is inferior to Sidious. In fact, C-canon material indicates that he's every bit the equal of someone who can kick Sidious' ass. You claim you don't want to flame me, and yet you come at me with the same boring routine as you did over a year ago. And now that I've been gone nearly as long, you've gotten used to asserting your own KMC dominance and status quo where no one questions Sidious' uberness because a bunch of random quotes from secondary source materials overblow his importance and uberness in the grand scheme of things. You also seem to think that DE Sidious and RotS Sidious are exactly the same in power, despite canon evidence to show otherwise and the fact that DE Sidious is nearly a generation older and wiser.

Now, excuse me for not sharing your opinion, but it's just that you can't communicate it without downplaying everyone but your favorite character. It's amazing how you turned this whole argument into Dooku versus Sidious all over again. Really, your ego must be attached to that sad old Sith.