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I couldn't find a thread about this using the search option, nor searching manually, but if this has been discussed before, please correct me.

Through the PT, in every lightsaber duel, except for one or two exceptions, the Jedi combatants are always the first to draw their blades. Let's take a look, shall we? (If I'm missing anything, please tell me)

TPM:
Darth Maul/Qui-Gon Jinn: They both draw simultaneously as Maul leaps off of his speeder.
Maul/Qui-Gon/Obi-wan: The Jedi draw first, leading to Maul's dramatic saber-staff unveiling.

AOTC:
Dooku/Obi-wan/Anakin: The Jedi walk into the confrontation with the Count of Serreno with blades drawn
Dooku/Yoda: Dooku draws first, prompting the first time we've ever seen a yelling, sword-wielding monkey on crack (well, most of us)

ROTS:
Dooku/Obi-wan/Anakin (part two): The Jedi once again draw blades first, moments before the Count does, and the battle is joined.
Obi-wan/Greivous: Obi-wan draws first, but this time it's to ostensibly engage the Magna Guards
Mace Windu/Darth Sidious: Mace and his entourage draw first, and then all get pwned, in a most embarrassing fashion (well, the entourage at least)
Obi-wan/Anakin: Obi-wan draws first, right before Anakin flips and joins in the battle.
Yoda/Darth Sidious: After knocking out two imperial guards with a wave of his hand, and then getting blasted across the room with lightning, Yoda draws his blade first in order to keep Sidious from exiting.

So there you have it, unless I'm forgetting a confrontation of some sort, the Jedi draw first seven times, second once, and one is a tie. What does this say (if anything) about an Order that advocates drawing lightsabers as a last resort only, and even teach a form (Form 'Zero') which emphasizes it?

I assume that, while the Order trains you never to draw your weapon first, exceptions are made in cases of immediate danger, which all of these were. They were all dealing with powerful enemies who they knew would not hesitate to strike a killing blow.

The Sith are known to pull dirty tricks, draw first or you're fucked.

chitoryu12 wrote:I assume that, while the Order trains you never to draw your weapon first, exceptions are made in cases of immediate danger, which all of these were. They were all dealing with powerful enemies who they knew would not hesitate to strike a killing blow.

For once, I think chitoryu got it right. And the whole idea of this thread is idiotic.

Yes, they are a peaceful group. What we don't see in the movies are the thousands upon thousands of mediating and police actions and who-knows-what-else that happen on a regular basis without a lightsaber being drawn.

TPM:
1. Tie.
2. He was a Sith Lord, for crying out loud! Not to mention they had already been in a battle.

AOTC:
1. They were in the middle of a battle!
2. After a potentially lethal Force competition, they move to a different form of combat. Oh, that's just evil! Swapping one form of combat for another!

ROTS:
1. Jedi fighting their sworn enemy who has spent the last 3 years trying, at least in part, to kill them.
2. Fighting overwhelming odds. Also, it's a war, fighting has been going on for years, it's not like they fought some random Joe Schmo off the street.
3. Jedi trying to capture someone that they just found out to be a Sith Lord. I would also venture a guess that it was also for intimidation purposes that they had their lightsabers already drawn.
4. Obi Wan fighting a Sith who just attempted to kill an innocent lady. It was necessary.
5. Yoda walking into an encounter with a Sith Lord, one that we know is without doubt among the most powerful Sith of all time. He surely didn't want to take chances. Oh yeah, he was attacked with the lightning first, too. Instead of replying with a Force outburst of some sort he went to the lightsaber.

Hell, look at the Naboo. When they knew that they couldn't negotiate their way out of the blockade and invasion, they pulled out their biggest weapons and mounted and all-out assault.

You misunderstand me, Dark Flame, I'm not trying to make the Jedi out to be evil warmongerers who love to fight. As I should have said in the OP, (and it's certainly completely all my fault for leaving it out) I was wondering if there was some sort of inferiority complex that Jedi have whilst fighting other lightsabered Force-users. Because although they spar, and deal with droids rather fantastically, when faced with another lightsaber, they seem to cling to their own like a security blanket, while the opponent sits back, draws on his own sweet time, then starts the battle.

.......inferiority complex?

If you were faced with enemies who could cause harm to you with a rude thought, I would suspect that you would draw your weapon at first glance. You don't try to negotiate with a powerful Sith lord.

Revan's Fire wrote:You misunderstand me, Dark Flame, I'm not trying to make the Jedi out to be evil warmongerers who love to fight. As I should have said in the OP, (and it's certainly completely all my fault for leaving it out) I was wondering if there was some sort of inferiority complex that Jedi have whilst fighting other lightsabered Force-users. Because although they spar, and deal with droids rather fantastically, when faced with another lightsaber, they seem to cling to their own like a security blanket, while the opponent sits back, draws on his own sweet time, then starts the battle.

I don't see how you can interpret going for a weapon first as an inferiority complex. Especially since, in the situations we see the Jedi doing so, it seems more like basic good sense.

In every single one of those cases you mentioned, combat was basically inevitable. There was no reasonable way to avoid a fight, short of just sitting back and letting the "bad guy" do whatever he feels like. Darth Maul's decision to be a drama queen about lighting his own weapon strikes me as showboating and stupidity a lot more than the Jedi going for their lightsabers first strikes me as insecurity.

Just to reiterate, lightsaber wielding Force users are dangerous people, and the Jedi realize this. Some random thug on the street with a blaster can be handled without a lightsaber, at least sometimes. Demonstrating a willingness to handle things without violence in that situation is relatively safe for a Jedi. Letting a skilled Force user come at you with a lightsaber is a whole different matter. Drawing first is basically a display of pragmatism and reasonable preparedness, not an inferiority complex.

chitoryu12 wrote:.......inferiority complex?

If you were faced with enemies who could cause harm to you with a rude thought, I would suspect that you would draw your weapon at first glance. You don't try to negotiate with a powerful Sith lord.

Well you should tell that to Luke Skywalker. He had a whole "I will not fight you father" tangent that you might find contradicts your point.

Jaevric wrote:I don't see how you can interpret going for a weapon first as an inferiority complex. Especially since, in the situations we see the Jedi doing so, it seems more like basic good sense.

In every single one of those cases you mentioned, combat was basically inevitable. There was no reasonable way to avoid a fight, short of just sitting back and letting the "bad guy" do whatever he feels like. Darth Maul's decision to be a drama queen about lighting his own weapon strikes me as showboating and stupidity a lot more than the Jedi going for their lightsabers first strikes me as insecurity.

Just to reiterate, lightsaber wielding Force users are dangerous people, and the Jedi realize this. Some random thug on the street with a blaster can be handled without a lightsaber, at least sometimes. Demonstrating a willingness to handle things without violence in that situation is relatively safe for a Jedi. Letting a skilled Force user come at you with a lightsaber is a whole different matter. Drawing first is basically a display of pragmatism and reasonable preparedness, not an inferiority complex.

::sigh:: you're right. In retrospect I'm not even sure what my original point was....

chitoryu12 wrote:.......inferiority complex?

If you were faced with enemies who could cause harm to you with a rude thought, I would suspect that you would draw your weapon at first glance. You don't try to negotiate with a powerful Sith lord.

I'm with chitoryu again. You don't mess around with Sith Lords.

Although, I remember reading that since they hadn't fought the Sith in a thousand years that their lightsaber training had changed to fighting blaster wielding opponents instead of lightsaber wielding opponents, but I doubt that that really extends to most of the prequel duels you mentioned.

TMP
1: Maul had just tried to kill Anakin. Remember?
2:Against a Sith Lord who had tried to kill them before.

AOTC
1:In the middle of a battle against an opponent who had tried to kill them.
2:Dooku not only maimed two Jedi, but attack Yoda with Force Lightning first.

ROTC
1:Against an opponent who tried to kill them before and was responsible for the entire war and was a known Sith Lord
2:You mean after Grevious said, "kill him" to his droids?
3:Against the most powerful Sith Lord in history
4:Anakin had made it clear that he could not be reasoned with. He tried to kill his wife, after all
5:Even you admitted in your post that Yoda got attacked first

Try to think things through before posting stuff like this.

The biggest examples I can think of for their "peaceful" nature are both in AOTC.

First off is when Obi-Wan is trying to capture Jango (also illustrates Jedi arrogance rather well, since we know Obi-Wan could have been tossing Jango fett around like a rag doll had he wished - Force Shoving multiple droids as a PADAWAN is much harder..) and utterly fails. Shoving Jango around until you knock him out with the Force, or to choke him until his oxygen gives out (or some other force trick to knock him out) could have suppressed him easily. But Obi-Wan didn't go for ANY of those. Hell he could have just immobilized Jango until he disarmed and cuffed him with the Force if he'd chosen to. Especially if he'd been stealthy about it.

The second is basically how the Jedi forcees Mace leads to Geonosis to rescue Anaikn and Obi-Wan totally fucked up and got most of them killed. Basically it amounted to infiltrate and surround the enemy in the arena.... and then expose yourselves in a highly visible manner and then allow yourselves to get surrounded on an open plain in a crossfire.

The sheer incomptence involved in that only makes sense if they were trying to use their reptuations as a weapon to intimidate the Geonosians (Remember how the Trade Fed shit themselves when TWO Jedi showed up at Naboo? Mulltiply that at a hundredfold.) Had they been more "militaristic" or "aggressive" they'd probably have done something like take hostages or kill more people to make it an easier job for themselves. But they didn't.

Well you should tell that to Luke Skywalker. He had a whole "I will not fight you father" tangent that you might find contradicts your point.

Luke Skywalker was hardly a Jedi in the traditional sense, and he was dealing with his dad. He's not really an ideal case to draw on, having received only roughshod training and obviously battling an emotional monster in confronting his father.

For perspective, how many times do Cops pull their guns in situations where violence is expected or highly likely?

Most of your situations with the Jedi would fit into those same situations that the cops do the same thing when they draw their guns not waiting to find out later if the offender is armed.

"A Jedi uses the FORCE for knowledge and defense...Never, for attack."

The Force, not your lightsaber.

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic..." I see nothing hypocritical about them drawing their weapons first - you can't defend justice and peace if you're dead.

NecronLord wrote:"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic..." I see nothing hypocritical about them drawing their weapons first - you can't defend justice and peace if you're dead.

Especially when lightsabers are defensive as well as offensive devices.

Well you should tell that to Luke Skywalker. He had a whole "I will not fight you father" tangent that you might find contradicts your point.

Not only was Vader trying to convert him rather than kill him, would you simply decapitate your own father if he was an enemy?

Revan's Fire wrote:So there you have it, unless I'm forgetting a confrontation of some sort, the Jedi draw first seven times, second once, and one is a tie. What does this say (if anything) about an Order that advocates drawing lightsabers as a last resort only, and even teach a form (Form 'Zero') which emphasizes it?

Jedi may prefer to avoid violence, but they seem to be quite capable of seeing when there's really no other option. Is there really any reason to think that Darth Maul, Count Dooku, General Grievous, or Palpatine would have surrendered meekly?

Yes, the Jedi seems to be trained to use violence only if there's no other way to deal with situation, but unliked to some other organization I wont name it doesn't mean that Jedi must give the opponent "free attacks" before they can act aggressivly should the need arise.

Tanasinn wrote:

Well you should tell that to Luke Skywalker. He had a whole "I will not fight you father" tangent that you might find contradicts your point.

Luke Skywalker was hardly a Jedi in the traditional sense, and he was dealing with his dad. He's not really an ideal case to draw on, having received only roughshod training and obviously battling an emotional monster in confronting his father.

Besides Vader calls him on it immediately anyway! "You are unwise to lower your defenses!"

Another thing to consider is that it should be valid to draw your saber even if you only intend to initially use it in a defensive manner. After all, if its a saber vs saber fight, you can parry and block and other moves without initiating attack first.

TPM:
Darth Maul/Qui-Gon Jinn: They both draw simultaneously as Maul leaps off of his speeder.

There is an unknown guy bearing down on you in a speeder. What would you do? Now, what would you do if you have precognition and KNOW he will draw a lightsaber? You draw a light saber, you dont sit around and let him get the first swing in before you activate your own weapon. Especially when your opponent has precog an superhuman speed.

There is a difference between being peaceful and being an idiot.

Maul/Qui-Gon/Obi-wan: The Jedi draw first, leading to Maul's dramatic saber-staff unveiling.

This is the same man who attacked you before. You know him to be a sith. You know he posesses precognition and superhuman speed as well as psionic abilities. Do you sit and wait, letting him make the first move in order to preserve some illusion of "peacefulness?" no. That would be stupid. Combat is a foregone conclusion.

AOTC
Dooku/Obi-wan/Anakin: The Jedi walk into the confrontation with the Count of Serreno with blades drawn

In the middle of a battle

Dooku/Yoda: Dooku draws first, prompting the first time we've ever seen a yelling, sword-wielding monkey on crack (well, most of us)

Dooku is strong enough in the force that unless Yoda did that, he would not be able to compensate for his small stature. If one is not strong, once must be fast

ROTS:
Dooku/Obi-wan/Anakin (part two): The Jedi once again draw blades first, moments before the Count does, and the battle is joined.

If combat is a foregone conclusion, it is best to have a weapon drawn.

Obi-wan/Greivous: Obi-wan draws first, but this time it's to ostensibly engage the Magna Guards

See above. Also, they were captured. getting a weapon drawn is a priority

Mace Windu/Darth Sidious: Mace and his entourage draw first, and then all get pwned, in a most embarrassing fashion (well, the entourage at least)

Because Papatine is a sith lord who is not only skilled with a blade and in close quarters, but is also so psionically powerful that he can implant vision dreams in people, and hold the entire republic under his sway. If left to his own devices he would manipulate you into killing eachother with psionically augmented persuasion techniques. Wouldn't you draw a weapon?

Obi-wan/Anakin: Obi-wan draws first, right before Anakin flips and joins in the battle.

The guy just committed infanticide and is powerful enough to engage multiple jedi simultaneously. Dont get caught with one's pants around the ankles

Yoda/Darth Sidious: After knocking out two imperial guards with a wave of his hand, and then getting blasted across the room with lightning, Yoda draws his blade first in order to keep Sidious from exiting.

hardly overly agressive.

Connor MacLeod wrote: The second is basically how the Jedi forcees Mace leads to Geonosis to rescue Anaikn and Obi-Wan totally fucked up and got most of them killed. Basically it amounted to infiltrate and surround the enemy in the arena.... and then expose yourselves in a highly visible manner and then allow yourselves to get surrounded on an open plain in a crossfire.

The sheer incomptence involved in that only makes sense if they were trying to use their reptuations as a weapon to intimidate the Geonosians (Remember how the Trade Fed shit themselves when TWO Jedi showed up at Naboo? Mulltiply that at a hundredfold.) Had they been more "militaristic" or "aggressive" they'd probably have done something like take hostages or kill more people to make it an easier job for themselves. But they didn't.

I know I had an old thread on this and I had to discontinue discussing the points because of my confinement to barracks, but that issue adequately highlighted the "we are keepers of the peace, not soldiers" statement of the Jedi.

They acted purely like police cops on the beat, trying to arrest Count Dooku. This even when they knew Count Dooku had a massive droid army and had already used force to capture Obiwan.

It was a totally different mentality, one based on the concept that they were there to protect peace and justice, that arrests and trials were better than death and mutialiation.

The Jedi are strict pacifists. They just adhere to the doctrine of "Preemptive Defense."


They have a code against killing. But depriving your enemy of life is perfectly okay...


See, it all makes sense, doesn't it? *waves hand*