Page 1 of 2

So...what could Vader do?

Posted: 2007-08-17 05:30pm
by NeoGoomba
Lord Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, is always mentioned as a powerful Sith Lord, with vast Force potential. And after reading and skimming many threads detailing what his master Palpatine could accomplish, and with it expressly pointed out that he would not be capable of Force Lightning, it seems to me that Vader never had a hope of usurping the Emperor.

But that made me curious. Other than his dueling and TK prowess shown in the movies, what sort of other nifty Jedi/Sith powers has he demonstrated throughout canon?

Posted: 2007-08-17 05:35pm
by RThurmont
Some degree of clairvoyance...for example, his certainty that the image of shield generators captured by the Imperial Probe Droid in ESB pointed to the location of the rebel base.

BTW, if someone could enlighten me as to why Vader can't use force lightning, that would be interesting. I had always assumed it was personal preference on Vader's part. Vader's telekinetic crushing of Admiral Harkoff in the TIE Fighter game (not sure if that's canon, but I think in SW it would be considered such) would be certainly equal to or greater than the force lightning inflicted by Palpatine.

My thought had been for whatever reason Palpatine was more of a lightning kind of guy, and Vader more of a telekinesis kind of guy.

Posted: 2007-08-17 05:40pm
by Ziggy Stardust
Vader can't use the force lightning, I believe, because he is "more machine, now, than man." Force lightning would fuck with his life support systems and fry the sumbitch.

Posted: 2007-08-17 05:41pm
by Sidewinder
RThurmont wrote:BTW, if someone could enlighten me as to why Vader can't use force lightning, that would be interesting. I had always assumed it was personal preference on Vader's part.
This question was also asked of 'Star Wars' magazine, and the editor of the Q & A pages stated that Force lightning must be conducted through living tissue. As Vader's arms are mechanical, he cannot conduct Force lightning through them to attack others.

However, Vader is portrayed as using Force lightning in some 'Star Wars' games, although this is a matter of artistic license on the part of the game programmers-- the canon Vader cannot conduct Force lightning.

Posted: 2007-08-17 05:46pm
by Darth Fanboy
RThurmont wrote: BTW, if someone could enlighten me as to why Vader can't use force lightning, that would be interesting.
Dark Lord explicitly states that it would overwhelm the life support systems of his armor.

Vader still has great powers, though, in Dark Lord he is still capable of power leaps and motion with the Force, although it is apparently not as nimble as what he would have been capable of. Vader tosses his lightsaber and his TK is powerful enough that a Jedi Master failed to exert any influence over the spinning blade. Vader defeats "a score" of Wookies while leading the attack on Kashyyk before dispatching of a handful of Jedi, (admittedly only one of them poses even a fraction of a threat to him).

During his time as Vader, he also began to develop an incredible talent for self healing (I say began because he never fully developed this talent by the time of his death). We see in Shadows of the Empire Vader attempting to heal the damage to his lungs and failed only when the happiness he felt at succeeding hindered his control of the dark side. He was able for short periods of time to survive without the armor.

Re: So...what could Vader do?

Posted: 2007-08-17 05:46pm
by Darth Lucifer
NeoGoomba wrote:Lord Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, is always mentioned as a powerful Sith Lord, with vast Force potential. And after reading and skimming many threads detailing what his master Palpatine could accomplish, and with it expressly pointed out that he would not be capable of Force Lightning, it seems to me that Vader never had a hope of usurping the Emperor.

But that made me curious. Other than his dueling and TK prowess shown in the movies, what sort of other nifty Jedi/Sith powers has he demonstrated throughout canon?
Palpatine/Sidious said that his apprentice would become more powerful than himself and Yoda before Vader was Black Knighted by Obi-Wan Kenobi. If Obi-Wan hadn't fucked him up so bad (which probably dropped his midichlorien count significantly), he probably would have usurped Palpy by himself soon after the end of Ep III.

Posted: 2007-08-17 07:08pm
by Darth Ruinus
Not sure if its canon, probably not, but a cool attack involves Vader attempting to "lift" a building, its continous untill the building is destroyed.

Did Vader receive any training under Palpatine?

Posted: 2007-08-17 08:31pm
by Havok
I don't really think there has been enough EU of Vader to cover his powers.
Also, there seems to be, for some reason, a willingness to completely wank Palpatine's power, but in contrast, Vader is basically relagated to his one or two powers shown in the movies.

Even with his cyborg parts, Vader is still one of only two Dark Lords of the Sith and the Chosen One of the Force. Now that ROTS has been done, we know, staright from Palpatine's mouth that Vader "will become more powerfull than either of us", in regards to himself and Yoda, the two most powerfull Force users in the Galaxy at the time. (Although Yoda disputed that claim, but what else was he gonna say?)

In the EU Vader has been shown to be cunning ruthless and efficient, if overly blunt. He has had his own apprentice, where whether we like her or not, restart the Sith Order. He helped to force the Jedi to the brink of extinction and to bring them back.

As far as actuall powers being shown... Choke, slice, repeat. With an occasional Force toss thrown in.
Vader, of all the characters in the SW universe, is in need of some serious wanking!

Posted: 2007-08-17 08:49pm
by Darth Ruinus
havokeff wrote:I don't really think there has been enough EU of Vader to cover his powers.
Also, there seems to be, for some reason, a willingness to completely wank Palpatine's power, but in contrast, Vader is basically relagated to his one or two powers shown in the movies.

Even with his cyborg parts, Vader is still one of only two Dark Lords of the Sith and the Chosen One of the Force. Now that ROTS has been done, we know, staright from Palpatine's mouth that Vader "will become more powerfull than either of us", in regards to himself and Yoda, the two most powerfull Force users in the Galaxy at the time. (Although Yoda disputed that claim, but what else was he gonna say?)

In the EU Vader has been shown to be cunning ruthless and efficient, if overly blunt. He has had his own apprentice, where whether we like her or not, restart the Sith Order. He helped to force the Jedi to the brink of extinction and to bring them back.

As far as actuall powers being shown... Choke, slice, repeat. With an occasional Force toss thrown in.
Vader, of all the characters in the SW universe, is in need of some serious wanking!
I agree, Vader is in my opinion, THE most badass guy in the entire SW movies series, havent read EU, so I cant say that, but I still think Vader takes it.

He should be able to at LEAST Crush ISDs with his mind, or, have some kind of pyro ability, simply because he wants to make others feel what he felt when he lost his body.

(BTW, is there a pyro ability in SW?)

Vader should be able to toss around ISDs like toys, (or is this too wanked?)

Posted: 2007-08-17 09:16pm
by Havok
Vader in a vaccum, should be able to perform all the feats we see the most powerfull Jedi and Sith perform. (Force Storms, Uber Force Telekenisis, ala Yoda in the CW cartoons). IMO, any feat we see a Force user doing, in any level of canon, Vader should be able to perform. With the exception of Force Lightning.

Unfortunetly, Vader seems to have put emotional and mental blocks on himself that keep him from attaining his true potential.

Posted: 2007-08-17 09:18pm
by Lisa
In TESB he repels a blaster bolt, with out the use of his light saber. (Han Solo shoots at him).

Posted: 2007-08-17 09:32pm
by Havok
Lisa wrote:In TESB he repels a blaster bolt, with out the use of his light saber. (Han Solo shoots at him).
True, but I thought there was still debate over whether it was the Force or his mechanical hand that actually stopped the bolt?

Posted: 2007-08-17 09:37pm
by Jaevric
havokeff wrote:
Lisa wrote:In TESB he repels a blaster bolt, with out the use of his light saber. (Han Solo shoots at him).
True, but I thought there was still debate over whether it was the Force or his mechanical hand that actually stopped the bolt?
According to I, Jedi, Luke compares Corran Horn's ability to absorb energy to Vader's, including being able to use the energy to perform Force telekinesis (though Vader was capable of doing so without the energy boost).

Further, if something like the outer layer of a mechanical hand can be crafted to resist blaster fire, you'd think people could make armor of the same material. One would expect a mechanical limb--particularly something like a hand--to be mostly internal parts for flexing and such, not mostly a solid metal sheet.

Posted: 2007-08-17 10:15pm
by Drooling Iguana
Sidewinder wrote:
RThurmont wrote:BTW, if someone could enlighten me as to why Vader can't use force lightning, that would be interesting. I had always assumed it was personal preference on Vader's part.
This question was also asked of 'Star Wars' magazine, and the editor of the Q & A pages stated that Force lightning must be conducted through living tissue. As Vader's arms are mechanical, he cannot conduct Force lightning through them to attack others.
What if he didn't use his hands? Could he, for example, shoot bolts of lightning from his arse?

Posted: 2007-08-17 10:16pm
by Civil War Man
havokeff wrote:
Lisa wrote:In TESB he repels a blaster bolt, with out the use of his light saber. (Han Solo shoots at him).
True, but I thought there was still debate over whether it was the Force or his mechanical hand that actually stopped the bolt?
A frame by frame look at that scene actually shows that Vader was deflecting blaster bolts with his hand. Part of the wall next to Han explodes (doing damage consistent with blaster fire) moments after one shot gets blocked by Vader's hand.

Re: So...what could Vader do?

Posted: 2007-08-17 11:37pm
by Ritterin Sophia
Mario1470 wrote:Palpatine/Sidious said that his apprentice would become more powerful than himself and Yoda before Vader was Black Knighted by Obi-Wan Kenobi. If Obi-Wan hadn't fucked him up so bad (which probably dropped his midichlorien count significantly), he probably would have usurped Palpy by himself soon after the end of Ep III.
I don't buy that. There's no way losing limbs can cause a loss of Midichlorian count (That's like saying losing a pinky will lower your red blood cell count), and I believe Palpatine even says that the likely answer is that Vader refuses to focus his sadness into anger, which I believe is in Dark Lord

Posted: 2007-08-17 11:57pm
by Knife
His TK as shown in ESB was pretty powerful, ripping large machines from the wall and tossing them Luke's way not to mention all the damage he did in the preasure room in RotS.

Also, he did threw all those things at Luke in a combat situation without any hand cue's or gestures. Note that Maul pointed at the tool and then the door to toss it, and Dooku made arm gestures at the support pillar thingie to crush it. Vader seems capable of doing such TK without hand cues though he does use them, ref: flipping the switch on the carbon freeze machine or choking the shit out of people, but not necessary even for the big jobs.

Posted: 2007-08-18 01:55am
by Lisa
havokeff wrote:
Lisa wrote:In TESB he repels a blaster bolt, with out the use of his light saber. (Han Solo shoots at him).
True, but I thought there was still debate over whether it was the Force or his mechanical hand that actually stopped the bolt?
IIRC in the commentary for the dvd George Lucas made the comment along the lines that Vader could do it because he's Vader and thats he's that much of a bad ass.

Posted: 2007-08-18 02:18am
by Havok
Knife wrote:His TK as shown in ESB was pretty powerful, ripping large machines from the wall and tossing them Luke's way not to mention all the damage he did in the preasure room in RotS.

Also, he did threw all those things at Luke in a combat situation without any hand cue's or gestures. Note that Maul pointed at the tool and then the door to toss it, and Dooku made arm gestures at the support pillar thingie to crush it. Vader seems capable of doing such TK without hand cues though he does use them, ref: flipping the switch on the carbon freeze machine or choking the shit out of people, but not necessary even for the big jobs.
In all fairness, Vader does point his saber in Luke's direction a few times. Still his abilities do seem to be less "Italian" than other Force users. :wink:

Posted: 2007-08-18 05:33am
by Tiriol
Some bits of information can be gathered by carefully watching Vader's actions throughout the EU. For example, it is clear that he can forcefully invade someone's mind under certain conditions (a weak-minded opponent, some distraction for the opponent, or perhaps none at all): in TIE Fighter computer game Vader interrogated the traitorous Admiral Harkov and since Harkov only managed to gasp some unrecognizable syllables, Vader must have somehow read his mind (at the same time it is shown that Vader, like Count Dooku, can keep someone suspended in the air and use the Force grip on that one at the same time with no difficulty; in Vader's case, he also invaded that someone's [Admiral Harkov] mind at the same time).

Splinter of the Mind's Eye shows us a curious talent of Vader: while he could not use Sith lightning, he could gather some sort of of a concentration of energy in the shape of a ball and use it as a weapon. Luke Skywalker was saved from that energy ball thanks to his own incredible Force potential and the presence of the spirit of Obi-Wan Kenobi (accomplished most likely by the presence of the Force-enhancing Kaiburr Crystal, since later in TESB Obi-Wan says that he cannot interfere with Vader and Luke's duel).

While most Jedi could employ the Force to telekinetically push away their opponents, Vader has been shown to use that skill not only against opponents in front of him, but all around him (this incident happened in Star Wars: Empire series' volume three, in a story named Savage Heart). In the same album, Vader also jumped so high and so fast that a Falleen would-be-assassin who tried to shoot him instead shot his own comrade who was behind Vader's back. While Vader has many times been portrayed as a clumsy or at least not particularly fast, he can, as Master Yoda, greatly enhance his speed with the Force to the extend that he can actually dodge blaster bolts or at least avoid them.

Unfortunately, many writers seem to be content with Vader's already perceived powers; we can only hope that given time, the EU writers will focus on Vader's strength in the same way as Palpatine's strength has been focused on.

Posted: 2007-08-18 05:59am
by Napoleon the Clown
In the Clone Wars cartoon Anakin uses Force Crush in a fit of rage. At the time he was still pretty much half-trained. As has been mentioned, he crushed a bunch of stuff in the pressure chamber. TIE Fighter gives us a repeat of him using Force Crush. In RotJ he reads Luke's thoughts regarding Leiah. He deflects blaster bolts with his hands. Without the aid of gestures to focus his mind he sat and tore peices of machinery off the walls of Cloud City to throw out Luke, all while he lightsaber dueled him. He took a direct hit from Palpatine's Force Lightning and kept moving until he could throw him down the open core (or whatever it was), despite the lightning being powerful enough to reduce Luke to writhing on the floor helplessly. Taking into account the havoc that this should have wreaked on the electronics that kept him alive and allowed him to move, it's a pretty safe bet that he used the force ignore the fact that most of his circuitry should have been a melted mess, even if it was only temporary. Right, and he had just had his hand lopped off.

Hell, his survival on Mustafar had to have been in large part due to the force. He had been lying a few feet from lava, where the air temprature was sufficient to cause his clothing to combust without so much as a spark touching them, for minutes at minimum. The air should have killed him from the levels of toxic gases. Even without toxic gases present, he should have suffocated from lack of oxygen. Use of the force is the best explanation.

Posted: 2007-08-18 07:47am
by Ritterin Sophia
I believe he burnt Tarkin's bodyguard, a Blood Carver name Ke Daiv, from the inside out on his second mission as a Padawan in the book Rogue Planet.

Posted: 2007-08-18 02:48pm
by Frank Hipper
Tiriol wrote:Splinter of the Mind's Eye shows us a curious talent of Vader: while he could not use Sith lightning...
No surprise there, that book was written before the concept of Force lightning existed.

Posted: 2007-08-18 03:14pm
by Havok
Frank Hipper wrote:
Tiriol wrote:Splinter of the Mind's Eye shows us a curious talent of Vader: while he could not use Sith lightning...
No surprise there, that book was written before the concept of Force lightning existed.
Didn't that book get pushed out of canon?

Posted: 2007-08-18 03:18pm
by Frank Hipper
havokeff wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:
Tiriol wrote:Splinter of the Mind's Eye shows us a curious talent of Vader: while he could not use Sith lightning...
No surprise there, that book was written before the concept of Force lightning existed.
Didn't that book get pushed out of canon?
Seems like I remember someone saying that, but I'm far from sure.