Hypothesis on the "rings" DS2/Alderaans destructi

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-01-27 03:09am

Since darkstar seems to think that his mysterious chain reaction theory explains these rings while the conventional theory does not, I thought I'd share my idea on what these could be. I will also address the shield theory.

We aren't going to use any forumulas or calculations. We are going to use sound logic and good old fashioned common sense.

Lets look at what we know first:

Alderaan was an advanced society, with much of the latest technologys. We also know that Planetary shields do exist in the Star Wars universe.

We know that they tend to lean towards pacifism. Leias quoted as soing "Alderaan is Peace we have no weapons..." just before she is cut off by Moff Tarkin, and indeed we so No ships, No orbital defense platforms. If they did indeed have weapons, surely Leia wouuld not even attempt to lie about it as such a lie would be absolutely futile since information on such a world would be easily available to the Empire.

We know from the novelization that Alderaan had Defences "as strong as any in the empire". Since They apparently had no weapon of signifigance, and no ships, we can see that the only logical conclusion is that its defence would be in the form of a powerful planetary shield. And if anyone can come up with another way a planet with no weapons can defend itself I'd like to hear it.

There is also visual evidence to support this, but that has already been addressed.

Now for the Rings:

We know that the Deathstar utilizes a large "hypermatter" reactor. We also know that this is not unique technology, and infact is used on most imperial starships. When the hypermatter reactor in ROTJ is destroyed, we see the mysterious rings of fireprojecting outward from the blast.

My hypothesis is that these rings are caused by the Hypermatter reactor because of the exotic materials used inside of them.

The explosive rings that we see at the destruction of Alderaan could very well be the side effect of the destruction of huge subteranean hypermatter reactors that would be responsible for power the planet and its shield generator. Note we see TWO rings of fire in the destruction of Alderaan, and only one with the deathstar which leads me to belive there were 2 reactors on Aldeeraan.

Here is my revised Scenario of what happend:

The Death Star fires its Super Laser.

The Laser impacts upon Alderaans planetary shields, the shield system then goes to work and radiates some of the energy away from the impact point which we see as a visible brightening around the planet.

The Sheilds are overloaded and collapse, and the Laser impacts the planet burrowing deep down and tearing it appart.

In this devistation the main hypermatter reactors, responsibly for power the planet are destroyed, and because of the exotic material involved create the strange fire rings as a side effect of their destruction.

As for why the rings start to slow down, that could either be because of the hypermatter itself or some other reason... After all, does anyone really know what would happen to the gravitational fields of a planet if it were destroyed? Would they simply cease to exist? Would they be cast outward into space as some phantom gravatational anomaly? I don't think anyone could really say for sure. Perhaps the reason we see the rings slowing down because there is some kind of phantom gravitational field pulling on them. At any rate, why the slow down is mere speculation on my part, I really don't have much scientifiy knowledge in this area.

The way I see it though, this hypothesis is at least as good as TardStars.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-27 03:12am

I came up with a nearly identical hypothesis back when he first began touting his MCR. He ignored it, saying that as it was an "addition" to the conventional theory, it was invalid.

Another argument he made against it was that the ring was apparently centered on the planet's center of mass, when it wasn't.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-27 03:17am

Ah, here it is:

I will propose an addition to the current "classical" theory of Alderaan's destruction:

According to Episode II official material, hypermatter reactors were the power sources of Trade Federation battleships. It is also known that, by the time of ANH, hypermatter reactors were successfully scaled up to fit the Death Star.

From a military perspective, before the Death Star was created, the greatest use of such a hypermatter reactor would be to power a planetary shield.

Now, let us assume that Alderaan's planetary shield was powered by such a hypermatter reactor. Due to the fact that its energy is distributed across the globe, there will only be a fraction of its full output on the point where the Death Star's beam impacted, therefore allowing it to overwhelm the shield with ease.

Finally, having seen the explosions of both the first and second Death Stars, I believe it is fairly safe to assume that hypermatter reactors release a form of planar shock wave when destroyed. This conveniently explains why Alderaan had a planar shock wave, and does not require a lengthy technobabble explanation.

Tell me, DarkStar, are you familiar with Occam's Razor?

EDIT: Yes, I know that this explanation means that the Death Star did not have to transfer 1E38 joules into Alderaan, as part of the explosion would have come from Alderaan itself. That's beyond the point; on an uninhabited planet without anything, the Death Star wouldn't need 1E38 joules. It could, in fact, use the minimum power necessary to disrupt the planet's gravitational binding force and still succeed.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2003-01-27 03:36am

Just another wave of expanding energy form something blowing up. Looks like just another realease of energy.

Like you said, the Deathstar and Alderaan had these waves when they were destroyed, so maybe the reactors did have something to do with it. and maybe they didn't.

The closest thing that I can come up with that is similar is a bomb going off. Plenty of videos available to compare. (even though it wont be the exact same thing that sets them off vs a what was in the movies...)

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-01-27 11:19am

Yea Crayz, this theory "adds to the conventional theory", but his wonderous Chain Reaction theory with numerous unknown added elements works perfectly.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-01-27 11:25am

Well Ming, the conventional theory and standard physics do not explain the existence of these rings, or their behavior. TardStar claims that his theory "explains" these rings, of course he never explains how it does so.

IT seems clear, from the DS2 explosion that a hyper-matter reactor upon detonation releases these rings of fire.

Since it is called hyper-matter, it would not be that much of a stretch to assume that it may have some sort of interaction with hyper-space which could account for the rings existence and their strange behavior.

It just occured to me that this might be a logical possibility given our current knowledge, and apparently others have thought the same thing.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-27 12:04pm

I came up with the exact same explanation back on ASVS: it's a hypermatter-related phenomenon.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-27 12:13pm

Those "rings" are what a few people here and on other boards like to call BSRs, or "Big Stupid Rings".

Explosion shockwaves are supposed to be spherical (ST:Generations does this, which is one thing to give the movie credit for), but cause the rings look cool, moviemakers continuously put in the ring when it's supposed to be a sphere.

My hypothesis: those rings are nothing more than the VFX people going with what looks cool than what's right and correct. I don't think they have anything to do with hypermatter.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-01-27 12:25pm

Shinova, you can't just explain it away that its "just to look cool". We have to assume that it happened as seen =/. Hypermatter reactor explosion would justify this because Hypermatter is an exotic material whose properties are not fully known. It is highly possible that Hyper-matter is somehow collected in Hyper-space, thus it could be governed by a different law of physics.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-01-27 12:25pm

Shinova wrote:My hypothesis: those rings are nothing more than the VFX people going with what looks cool than what's right and correct. I don't think they have anything to do with hypermatter.

Well, suspension of disbelief says that we must treat the rings as observed phenomena. Therefore, we must find a method of explaining them.

BTW, this thread is more at home in the PSW forum.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-27 12:41pm

It would indeed be good to find an explanation. Darkstar's problem was that he figured simply saying "my undefined MCR produces rings, so there" was an explanation.

But we should keep in mind that the significance of the rings is related to their energy content; if they contain almost no mass/energy, then one needs only a small phenomenon to explain them, and they probably don't have much effect on the overall mechanics of the situation.

And yes, the phenomenon appears inconsequential; the ring from DS2 was headed straight toward Endor, following right behind the Falcon and other craft as they retreated toward the forest moon. Yet there was no apparent effect on the atmosphere. So it could not have contained significant mass/energy, otherwise it would have interacted violently with the forest moon's atmosphere. Similarly, the rapid spontaneous deceleration of the ring at Alderaan is not possible if it contains significant mass/energy regardless of the mysterious braking mechanism, because it would have to release huge amounts of energy to slow down so much.

Therefore, it could have very well been some shield-related effect; the fact that it was not aligned with the direction of superlaser impact strongly suggests this, and the small amount of mass/energy is consistent with that (a shield should not contain huge amounts of mass/energy).

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2003-01-27 12:49pm

Admiral_K wrote:Well Ming, the conventional theory and standard physics do not explain the existence of these rings, or their behavior. TardStar claims that his theory "explains" these rings, of course he never explains how it does so.

IT seems clear, from the DS2 explosion that a hyper-matter reactor upon detonation releases these rings of fire.

Since it is called hyper-matter, it would not be that much of a stretch to assume that it may have some sort of interaction with hyper-space which could account for the rings existence and their strange behavior.

It just occured to me that this might be a logical possibility given our current knowledge, and apparently others have thought the same thing.

I can agree with this and I have. Simple and effective. Either way I see it as the by-product of the release of a large amount of energy.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-01-27 03:02pm

Can't we just call Lucas and ask him to remove the rings in the next update of the original trillogy. And take out Greedo shooting first while we're at it.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-01-27 03:20pm

Darth Wong wrote:And yes, the phenomenon appears inconsequential; the ring from DS2 was headed straight toward Endor, following right behind the Falcon and other craft as they retreated toward the forest moon. Yet there was no apparent effect on the atmosphere. So it could not have contained significant mass/energy, otherwise it would have interacted violently with the forest moon's atmosphere. Similarly, the rapid spontaneous deceleration of the ring at Alderaan is not possible if it contains significant mass/energy regardless of the mysterious braking mechanism, because it would have to release huge amounts of energy to slow down so much.

Thats sort of why I think that the rings are more or less a visible representation of some hyper-space phenomenon, perhaps even a sort of "explosion" in hyperspace caused by the hyper-matter itself. Its effect in real space is simply a nice fireworks show.

I think of it as being sort of akin to those "sub space shockwaves" we see from time to time in Star Trek.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-27 04:05pm

And don't forget that their orientation to the object could be related to the object's magnetic field.

Alderaan's rings formed from the equatorial region, perpendicular to the poles, and having a "point of origin" near the core.

Death Star I's rings also formed from the equatorial region and with a "point of origin" like that of Alderaan, but were almost parallel to the poles (within 45 degrees), and passed within 45 degrees of the superlaser. This might have something to do with an alteration in DS1's magnetic field caused by the superlaser powering up.

Death Star II's rings were very similar to those of Alderaan's in orientation and point of origin. In the ROTJ novelisation, DS2 is rotating the superlaser towards Endor to destroy it, but the lack of any alteration in the rings suggests that superlaser was not powering up yet, which also fits in with DS2's SL having a faster recharge time.

That's my opinion, and if I messed anything up (it's been a while since I've seen the OT), let me know.

Admiral_K · Post by **Admiral_K** » 2003-01-27 05:51pm

Why in the hell would the DS2 try to destroy Endor?

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-27 05:57pm

Admiral_K wrote:Why in the hell would the DS2 try to destroy Endor?

It was sort of a desperate move, to ensure that the Reb win would be as pyrrhic as possible. The order was issued after the shield fell and it was evident that the DSII was going to die.
The novel depicts Moff Jerjerrod loyally standing at his post, waiting to give the fire command up until the last seconds, but in the movie, there was no time to show this. But the station can be seen to have changed orientations by the end of the battle to be almost pointing at the Forest Moon.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-01-27 05:58pm

Admiral_K wrote:Why in the hell would the DS2 try to destroy Endor?

Who knows, it just describes Jerejerrod as being a usual evil Imperial. Wanting to destory a "firtle world full of life" or something to that gist.

Although GL strangley doesn't give an explanation, maybe he thought it would create a debris field that would destroy the Rebel fleet?

Thats the best I can do...

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-27 06:16pm

Didn't the original trilogy (and I mean the ORIGINAL trilogy, not that special edition they put out recently) not have any rings at all? Not on alderran, DS1, or DS2?

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-27 06:16pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Admiral_K wrote:Why in the hell would the DS2 try to destroy Endor?
Who knows, it just describes Jerejerrod as being a usual evil Imperial. Wanting to destory a "firtle world full of life" or something to that gist.

Although GL strangley doesn't give an explanation, maybe he thought it would create a debris field that would destroy the Rebel fleet? Thats the best I can do...

Actually, Jerjerrod only orders it once the DS is clearly going to die. And as we can see with Alderaan, any ships in close orbit of a planet which is subject to a SL blast will be pwned.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-01-27 06:17pm

Shinova wrote:Didn't the original trilogy (and I mean the ORIGINAL trilogy, not that special edition they put out recently) not have any rings at all? Not on alderran, DS1, or DS2?

You're right, there were no rings. But the SE is the "definitive vision" ... it is ultimate canon.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-01-27 07:52pm

Don't be silly, people. The rings are caused by Alderaan's vast stores of .5 Past Lightspeed-brand coffee being incinerated. Sheesh!

Seriously, though...

It would indeed be good to find an explanation. Darkstar's problem was that he figured simply saying "my undefined MCR produces rings, so there" was an explanation.

I pointed out to him several times that his theory fails to explain the rings just as much as the DET theory does... of course, he didn't even respond. That's when I stopped taking him seriously (yeah, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, originally).

But we should keep in mind that the significance of the rings is related to their energy content; if they contain almost no mass/energy,

Well, there's your explanation for the ring's "slowdown"... the gravity of Alderaan was sufficient to cause the rings to begin declerating. Clearly this shows that the rings were sorely lacking in mass/energy.

(Mostly joking with that one.)

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-01-27 09:52pm

The rings were caused by the bands, obviously.

...And the bands were caused by the rings.

See? See those rings? Right there, where Scooter arbitrarilly drew circles and arrows? Don't you see?
...You're all obviously part of the rabid warsie conspiracy, and I shall preemptively declare your arguments to be all personal attacks, fools.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-01-27 10:27pm

Doesn't a similar ring result from the Scimitar going up?

Maybe an after effect of the comsumption of tibanna gas is thalaron radiation