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I didn't want to necro this thread, but it seems like that the question about why Mon Calamari was spared from a mass Imperial assault was unanswered.

So, did the Imperials really ignore MC for a while in order to focus on other targets? Furthermore, were there any other worlds that declared for the Empire, pre-Endor?

I don't know if you mean a mass attack before the fall of the "original" emperor or after or either one but, I believe it could be 2 things

1) The Empire used the Mon Calamari's as slaves so bombarding their civilization back to the.......seashell age wouldn't be a good thing.

2) Mon Calamari was almost utterly destroyed by the Cloned Emperor when he unleashed his World Devestators onto the planet.

But for the most part the fact that Mon Calamari is in the outer rim (I believe I don't have that map that StarWars Insider gave years ago handy) might let it slide.

THe Star Wars databank entry for the Mon Calamari states the following:

When the Empire came to power, it began seizing property on the Mon Calamari homeworld, and the peaceful aquatic species countered with passive resistance. The Empire would stand no defiance, and used massive Star Destroyer weapons to destroy three floating Mon Calamari cities. The response was unexpected. The Mon Calamari took up tools as armaments, and what little weapons they had, and fought back. The Empire fled Mon Calamari, and after their short victory, the Mon Cals joined the Alliance to Restore the Republic. The Mon Calamari converted their beautiful exploration ships and space liners with weapon mounts and armor plating, turning them into the Mon Calamari star cruisers.

As of the Clone Wars, the shipyards at Dac were comparable to those at Fondor, though still largely inferior to general galactic tech due to their recent discovery and joining the republic. By the time they joined the Rebellion they could only produce 1 cruiser a month. Best rationalization for that is that the Empire trashed the place on the way out. So now you have a populace that is mad at you, but has inferior tech and no space infrastructure. Who the hell cares what they do? They are stuck at the bottom of the gravity well, go ahead and ignore them.

Ender wrote:As of the Clone Wars, the shipyards at Dac were comparable to those at Fondor, though still largely inferior to general galactic tech due to their recent discovery and joining the republic. By the time they joined the Rebellion they could only produce 1 cruiser a month. Best rationalization for that is that the Empire trashed the place on the way out. So now you have a populace that is mad at you, but has inferior tech and no space infrastructure. Who the hell cares what they do? They are stuck at the bottom of the gravity well, go ahead and ignore them.

Are you referring to the RASB? It was a breakneck pace and they produced one cruiser every six months (no idea on size of the "cruiser" though.) they could produce smaller ships (like Corellian Corvettes or Nebulon-B frigates) in about a month IIRC. That's about how long it took Fondor to build the Executor IIRC from the EC, so go figure.

I don't know if it was "all out" or if it was 'per yard" but I have one of those "Ships of the fleet" cutaway kids books that has a diagram and artwork of the mon cal shipyards, they have multiple (dozens, possibly hundreds) of such yards per planet. Each could build at least two Mon Cal cruisers simultaneously, and at least a dozen or so smaller craft I'd estimate.

So you could guess that the Mon Cals could build many dozens or hundreds of Mon Cal cruisers per year, if they could sustain output (which requires acertian assumptions of unknowns.) and hundreds if not thousands of smaller vessels. That would e about what fondor could put out IIRC from descriptions (The Executor, later incidents like the NJO, etc.)

It also tends to suggest the Rebel Fleet woudl be substnatially larger than ROTJ indicates (Which is another thing the RASB suggests, IIRC the Rebels had like 1/15th the ships of the Empire or something like that.)

Ender wrote:As of the Clone Wars, the shipyards at Dac were comparable to those at Fondor, though still largely inferior to general galactic tech due to their recent discovery and joining the republic. By the time they joined the Rebellion they could only produce 1 cruiser a month. Best rationalization for that is that the Empire trashed the place on the way out. So now you have a populace that is mad at you, but has inferior tech and no space infrastructure. Who the hell cares what they do? They are stuck at the bottom of the gravity well, go ahead and ignore them.

How recent is recent? As far back as the time of Knights of the Old Republic, Quarren were already making their rounds.

Not least, the Invisible Hand was produced using Mon Cal tech, and stolen Mon Cal shield blueprints.

But it is quite possible that the shipyard got trashed. But given the size and magnitude of the rebuilding of their starships into warships (if the pleasure yacht nonsense is to be remotely believed), they could have quite possibly rebuilt many of the yards.

Connor MacLeod wrote: Are you referring to the RASB? It was a breakneck pace and they produced one cruiser every six months (no idea on size of the "cruiser" though.) they could produce smaller ships (like Corellian Corvettes or Nebulon-B frigates) in about a month IIRC. That's about how long it took Fondor to build the Executor IIRC from the EC, so go figure.

Yes, I guess I misrembered it. That is even worse. As for the Executor, yeah it took that long, but they were building a ton of other ships at the same time. Not the case here.

I don't know if it was "all out" or if it was 'per yard" but I have one of those "Ships of the fleet" cutaway kids books that has a diagram and artwork of the mon cal shipyards, they have multiple (dozens, possibly hundreds) of such yards per planet. Each could build at least two Mon Cal cruisers simultaneously, and at least a dozen or so smaller craft I'd estimate.

Could you post a scan?

So you could guess that the Mon Cals could build many dozens or hundreds of Mon Cal cruisers per year, if they could sustain output (which requires acertian assumptions of unknowns.) and hundreds if not thousands of smaller vessels. That would e about what fondor could put out IIRC from descriptions (The Executor, later incidents like the NJO, etc.)

It also tends to suggest the Rebel Fleet woudl be substnatially larger than ROTJ indicates (Which is another thing the RASB suggests, IIRC the Rebels had like 1/15th the ships of the Empire or something like that.)

But as you say, that interpration doesn't jive with ROTJ.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:How recent is recent? As far back as the time of Knights of the Old Republic, Quarren were already making their rounds.

Odd, as most sources place it's discovery/inclusion as at the end of the republic/birth of the Empire.

Not least, the Invisible Hand was produced using Mon Cal tech, and stolen Mon Cal shield blueprints.

No, it was made by Free Dac nationalists at a totally different place. Nothing about it being stolen or made with Mon cal tech. Just that it was assembled by workers who favored independence.

Ender wrote:Odd, as most sources place it's discovery/inclusion as at the end of the republic/birth of the Empire.

There was a retcon for that in the recent new book on Guide to Species or something. Apparently that was propaganda and in truth the Mon Cals were discovered some thousands of years before. The Mon Cals had representation in the Senate for decades before the "Rise of the Empire".

No, it was made by Free Dac nationalists at a totally different place. Nothing about it being stolen or made with Mon cal tech. Just that it was assembled by workers who favored independence.

According to one of the Holonet News in Insider, there was an information raid at one of the shipyards and the attackers made off with some shield technology.

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:There was a retcon for that in the recent new book on Guide to Species or something. Apparently that was propaganda and in truth the Mon Cals were discovered some thousands of years before. The Mon Cals had representation in the Senate for decades before the "Rise of the Empire".

Read what you just wrote. Decades before the Empire is still shortly before it, and definately not thousands of years. I'm aware of the bit that says it was propaganda, but it also says it was towards the end of the republic - hence the decades bit. Decades is very recently when you are talking a society that has been around 25,000 years.

According to one of the Holonet News in Insider, there was an information raid at one of the shipyards and the attackers made off with some shield technology.

Which in no way means it was connected to the IH or the Providence class. Just that they stole some tech. The ROTSICS very clearly states where the IH was built.

Ender wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote: Are you referring to the RASB? It was a breakneck pace and they produced one cruiser every six months (no idea on size of the "cruiser" though.) they could produce smaller ships (like Corellian Corvettes or Nebulon-B frigates) in about a month IIRC. That's about how long it took Fondor to build the Executor IIRC from the EC, so go figure.

Yes, I guess I misrembered it. That is even worse. As for the Executor, yeah it took that long, but they were building a ton of other ships at the same time. Not the case here.

Also, bear in mind that the Executor was the first ship of its class ever built. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the time would be much shorter for her sister ships.

Surlethe wrote:Also, bear in mind that the Executor was the first ship of its class ever built. It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that the time would be much shorter for her sister ships.

I remember reading somewhere that the only reason why the Executor got built so quickly was because Vader accelerated the production and it took all of Fondor's resources to finish it. It involved some merging of the small shipyard companies or something of the like.

Ender wrote:Read what you just wrote. Decades before the Empire is still shortly before it, and definately not thousands of years. I'm aware of the bit that says it was propaganda, but it also says it was towards the end of the republic - hence the decades bit. Decades is very recently when you are talking a society that has been around 25,000 years.

I was nitpicking the recent discovery which was 4000 years before the end of the Republic. Quarren were making their rounds in the KOTOR games at least if I recall well enough.

Which in no way means it was connected to the IH or the Providence class. Just that they stole some tech. The ROTSICS very clearly states where the IH was built.

Yes, but if I recall correctly, that same book mentioned that the shield technology was Mon Calamari in origin.

Ender wrote:Yes, I guess I misrembered it. That is even worse. As for the Executor, yeah it took that long, but they were building a ton of other ships at the same time. Not the case here.

Well, there probably are a number of complicating factors. The Mon Cals were very meticulous designers, so I don't think they "mass produced" ships quite the same way the Empire did (quality over quantity, I think?) or at least the "quasi organic so no two ships look alike" concept tends to hint at that. Historically, the Empire always had more efficient shipyards than the REbels (or even New Republic.) Hell, they were far more efficient than the OLD Republic. Maybe the Imperial yards like Fondor or Kuat were modernized at some poitn and Mon Cal's weren't.

There's also the not-so-minor fact that while the Empire never seemed to get around to actually wiping out the shipyards, I'd be hard pressed to believe they didn't try raiding in or around it to either disrupt the shipbuilding or resource acquisition. They probably also blockaded the system - while most of the actual construction resources might be found-in system, its possible they had shortages or other things they couldn't easily get their hands on.

Could you post a scan?

I can try, but don't hold your breath. In any case the drawing isn't THAT useful, it just shows two shipyards (with two mon cal ships) zipping away from the planet.

The data is more useful. We know the Mon Cals put their yards (plural) in high orbit around the planet. The yards shown int he picture are at least spread out by a few tens or few hundreds of km at most. That tends to suggest a fairly large number of yards.

The yards also are large enough to hold some unknown "non-Liberty" type mon Cal cruiser, the sketch (And data given) might imply a Home One scale vessel (though they regurgitate the incorrect 1200 meter WEG figure and other stats for Home One.)

The book also implies that "within a few months, a new cruiser takes shape as the hull, weapons and engines are secured itno place" (a paraphrase), which suggests a substnatially shorter timeframe than the RASB (2-3 months tops.) Perhaps the six months is an upper limit for the largest classes (the Home One types.)

The book also indicates that while the Mon Cal shipyards are the biggest and most important that the Rebels have, they evidently do have other yards. Which, IIRC, contradicts the RASB somewhat.

But as you say, that interpration doesn't jive with ROTJ.

Says who? Are we to seriously believe that the ENTIRE Rebel fleet consists of a few dozen ships? Even the ROTJ novel implies numbers far larger (when they assemble the fleet, its every ship in the galaxy, and stretches beyond human perception.) It's a civil war, not a guerilla campaign. To fight a "war" you need the right resourcecs.

Let's not forget Mon Mothma said that the Imperial fleet was "scattered throughout the galaxy" attempting to enage the Rebels. It wouldn't make much sense if the Imperials had no ships to pursue.

We can also infer (based on the ROTJ novel) that the battle of Endor extended throughout the entire system, not just around the planet. (Interidctors, etc.)

Connor MacLeod wrote:There's also the not-so-minor fact that while the Empire never seemed to get around to actually wiping out the shipyards, I'd be hard pressed to believe they didn't try raiding in or around it to either disrupt the shipbuilding or resource acquisition.

The many years (15, IIRC) between Dark Empire and the next major new Mon Cal ship design (MC90 -> Viscount), plus the mere existance of the New Class program in between, suggests that either was extensive damage made, or long-time disruption took place. So yeah...

nightmare wrote:The many years (15, IIRC) between Dark Empire and the next major new Mon Cal ship design (MC90 -> Viscount), plus the mere existance of the New Class program in between, suggests that either was extensive damage made, or long-time disruption took place. So yeah...

Well, there were the Mediator battlecruisers..

And the designing of the Viscount began after the Yevethan crisis.

Another Databank entry, from the entry for the planet Mon Calamari

An Imperial task force arrived at Mon Calamari, looking to garrison the world and its shipyards, and enslave the people of the ocean world. As a show of power, the Empire destroyed three Mon Calamari cities from orbit. It has long been rumored that a bitter Quarren collaborator was responsible for the lowering of planetary defenses.

The Empire failed to occupy the planet, however. The Mon Calamari and the Quarren joined together to fight back against the invaders. They were able to repel the Imperial invasion, making it more costly to the Empire than it was worth. The Mon Calamari were soon to join the Alliance to Restore the Republic, committing their shipyards to construct mighty warships for the growing Rebellion.

That part of the bolded sentence, "comitting their shipyards" implies that multiple shipyards were intact prior to the Mon Cal and Quarren pushing the Empire off of the planet.

EDIT:

Sorry forgot to mention this. Both Databank articles I have quoted also mention that the Empire destroyed three Mon Cal floating cities with the help of a Quarren collaborator. No other damage to the planet is indicated. I am not entirely certain the Empire would have damaged the shipyards, as they wanted them intact. My guess is that they were pushed out of the system before they could do anything useful, or harmful, with the shipyards.

The Mon Cal shipyards were put back into order (and construction had begun/ws nearly finished) on one ship less than a year after Dark Empire.

Besides, considering the NR somehow managed to go on post Endor to conquer large swathes of territory they wrested from the Empire, as well as to battle the reorganized Imperial fleet within months of Endor, the implication si that they had a large number of ships available. If they didn't have them before hand (if we take ROTJ seriously, which I find ludicrous) then they had to have built a huge number of warships quickly. Which means mon calamari would have had to foot the bill mainly (As I recall the only other "major" shipyard they had aside from Mon Calamari, and the yards they established in "balance of power" was the Bajic yards, but they were destroyed prior to Endor by Vader in SOTE.)

Then there's the Providence-class and Recusant-class destroyers they've got on hand early on in the GCW (as depicted in the SW:Rebellion comics), and the possibility that the Mon Cal shipyards were only capable of the limited amount of ship-construction very early in their involvement with the RA, before upgrading/reconstructing their shipyards, perhaps?

I also read somewhere that the Mon Cals kept a sizable fraction of their fleets in their sector, constantly patrolling their borders to keep the Imperials out. Anyone know which book said that?

So this just brings me back to the original thread- hypothetically, I'm wondering if a polity of some size (50-200 worlds) on the Outer Rim- kind of like the Hapans, but with the will to- could have declared war on the Empire sometime before Endor and get away with it. Everyone's saying that they'd get spammed with Star Destroyers a day after they declare, but it seems like the example of Mon Calamari shows that the Empire might occasionally have other priorities.

Hmmm, there were locations that were scheduled for termination by the Death Stars. Places too well-defended to waste regular fleets on. There's at least the Roche Asteroids (where the Alliance developed the B-wing), which I guess would be a literal clusterfuck to take by force.

There's also a cutout of the Emperor's throneroom in ITW:OT that shows a galactic map with locations marked for punishment. So there had to be at least several sizable ones.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:So this just brings me back to the original thread- hypothetically, I'm wondering if a polity of some size (50-200 worlds) on the Outer Rim- kind of like the Hapans, but with the will to- could have declared war on the Empire sometime before Endor and get away with it. Everyone's saying that they'd get spammed with Star Destroyers a day after they declare, but it seems like the example of Mon Calamari shows that the Empire might occasionally have other priorities.

Well, Allegiance has a sector about to secceed and it being a major threat. And all the worlds that openly declared for the rebellion got asshammered. My guess is that Dac did the same thing as Alderaan and tried to play cowed, and the Empire figured it had been sufficiently neutered that it didn't warrent going in like they did at Topwara.

The Arkanis Sector was under Rebel control in the months leading up to the Battle of Endor (Bounty Hunter Wars), then the Empire regained control of some planets there, until after the battle (ROTJ, Dark Forces Saga).

There seem to be conflicting explanations from what I've seen. Some places say the yards weren't large enough for the Empire to bother with given the planet's remoteness (which of course is bullshit thanks to hyperdrive speeds, but go figure), and others say the yards were too well defended by the masses of ships they could churn out. It can't be both, and frankly neither are very satisfactory; nowhere in the SW galaxy is 'too remote' for the Imperial Navy to attack given the nature and scale of the threat the yards pose (regardless of source), and there is simply no way a single planet could somehow attain such defensive power as to make an assault impossibly costly.

Connor MacLeod wrote:The Mon Cal shipyards were put back into order (and construction had begun/ws nearly finished) on one ship less than a year after Dark Empire.

Besides, considering the NR somehow managed to go on post Endor to conquer large swathes of territory they wrested from the Empire, as well as to battle the reorganized Imperial fleet within months of Endor, the implication si that they had a large number of ships available. If they didn't have them before hand (if we take ROTJ seriously, which I find ludicrous) then they had to have built a huge number of warships quickly. Which means mon calamari would have had to foot the bill mainly (As I recall the only other "major" shipyard they had aside from Mon Calamari, and the yards they established in "balance of power" was the Bajic yards, but they were destroyed prior to Endor by Vader in SOTE.)

So I understand you take ROTJ not seriously and think they had them before hand but didn't send them to Endor? Or you do believe they fielded a massive force from Dac within six months?

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Well, there were the Mediator battlecruisers..

And the designing of the Viscount began after the Yevethan crisis.

Contemporary, and you don't need a yard for design.

nightmare wrote:

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Well, there were the Mediator battlecruisers..

And the designing of the Viscount began after the Yevethan crisis.

Contemporary, and you don't need a yard for design.

And it takes time to design a ship. Mediators were some class possibly higher than the MC90s though that was never confirmed.

Regardless, there is plenty of evidence that MC90s were slowly making their way into the fleet, but not in the numbers the NR would have wanted. And in any case, since the damage to the KDY yards at Kuat ought to have been repaired by then, why not use those yards to produce ships which the NR desperately needs in the aftermath of Operation Shadowhand?

Not least, it seems that the NR had problems with funds (or ideology take your pick), with the Nebula class Star Destroyers produced at a rate of one a year although it seems that they produced them rather quickly initially.