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Is there any way of ranking Palpatine's Dark Side disciples based on approximate power relative to each other? It's just I've been reading a thread here about the ROTJ Infinities comics, and everyone was saying that had Vader been brought to the light, the Emperor would have probably made High Inquisitor Jerec his replacement as Sith apprentice. So that would mean that he was the third most powerful Dark Side user at that time, not counting rampant ghosts, hidden clones, or other such silliness.

Not that Palpatine having secret dozens of Hands, Acolytes, Adepts, Elites, Force-sensitive Royal Guards, Prophets, Inquisitors, and miscellaneous Dark Jedi isn't silly enough.

There's no reason its silly other than say-so. In fact, they were instrumental for Palpatine's long-term designs.

Anyway, this isn't comic-book crap. "Guy Z has more POWAR than Guy X and Guy X beat Guy Y in a fight, so, Guy Z is better than Guy X which is better than Guy Y."

"Force potential" may define the limits of the natural talent and growth an adept is capable of, and their reserves of exertion in contests of brute force. But as Corran Horn proves, not all talents and skills in the Force are created or expressed equally. Like ANYTHING else, its a complex web of skills, talents, and practice which comes together to provide a person with abilities. Would we say, "Guy Y has more intelligence potential than Guy X so he'll always outsmart him! Yeah!" No, even though there is such a thing as intelligence quotient.

Ideally, Palpatine would take Luke as his apprentice, or failing that, Leia.

Beyond the Skywalkers, it becomes far more uncertain as to who would be accepted as Palpatine's Sith apprentice, since most of his Dark Side hierarchs were never allowed to become as strong as they might have been able to become. In fact, we are making an assumption that Palpatine would even bother with his Dark Jedi and Force Adepts in looking for a potential candidate.

Jerec certainly remains a highly plausible candidate, as do several other Inquisitors. The Hands would almost assuredly not be chosen, given their rather low status. He may even select one of his cultists like Sedriss and Shadowspawn, or even one of the Prophets of the Dark Side.

Of course, it's questionable if Jerec, knowing about the Valley of the Jedi as much as he did by Endor, would even bother accepting Palpatine's offer, if it were ever presented.

Luke Skywalker is obviously his first choice, probably followed by Leia Organa Solo thereafter, as TC said. Almost certainly, given his strength as a former Jedi Master and his familiarity with Sith lore from being an archaeologist of their relics, Inquisitor Jerec would be the distant third choice. The Prophets of the Dark Side make decent grounds for recruitment, as they are a schismatic Sith cult, though their schism may in fact be a barrier to recruitment in the Ordinal Sith. I doubt the other hierarchs would be selected, given that Palpatine still sought to collect the Skywalker Twins alive even after his decisive rejection and defeat at Da Soocha V.

TC Pilot wrote:Jerec certainly remains a highly plausible candidate, as do several other Inquisitors. The Hands would almost assuredly not be chosen, given their rather low status.

This is supposed to be evident: the Hands are trained to do only the covert actions that the Sith Apprentice cannot do due his fame (i.e.: Vader had the ability to destroy in five minutes the Black Nebula that Mara Jade in the first occasion failed to destroy, but if Vader went somewhere EVERYONE who had reasons to fear the Empire will run before in the exact moment in he heard the possibility), not to command an army on Galactic scale, beat in solo fighting a group of Jedi and train other darksider. Hands are killers and spies, not Siths, while sometimes they have the potential (apparently lady Lumiya and Mara Jade, while Mara is too cocky to be an equivalent of a real Sith).

I don't think personality interpretations like "cockiness" are really the measure of a legitimate member of Lord Bane's Order of the Sith Lords. Lady Lumiya was weak and illegitmate with regard to the Order of the Sith Lords. She's a self-declared bastard Sith and is not a relevent datum by which to judge the Order.

I don't know a lot on their exact ability, I was talking basing only on the impression that she maked on me. At least politically and intellectually, Lumiya seems to me having the potential to be a Sith like the ones trained by Sidious, who seems to me being not too cocky.

lord Martiya wrote:I don't know a lot on their exact ability, I was talking basing only on the impression that she maked on me. At least politically and intellectually, Lumiya seems to me having the potential to be a Sith like the ones trained by Sidious, who seems to me being not too cocky.

Ahem.

If you want "cocky," I direct your attention to Darth Maul. Who would have killed Obi-Wan Kenobi and walked away from Naboo if he'd just chopped Kenobi's hand off while Kenobi was dangling from the edge of the pit instead of screwing around scraping his lightsaber against the pit edge to make sparks. Darth Tyrranus/Count Dooku, who was blinded by his own confidence in his innate superiority right up to the moment Anakin chopped his hands off. And, of course, Anakin loses an arm and two legs to Obi-Wan Kenobi, in part due to overconfidence. Then there's Sidious himself, who lets his own overconfidence blind him to the idea that Vader might ever turn against him, resulting in Palpatine's abrupt and involuntary departure from his throne room on the DS II.

Cockiness is definitely not going to disqualify someone from being a Sith apprentice, presuming they can back it up.

TC Pilot wrote: Of course, it's questionable if Jerec, knowing about the Valley of the Jedi as much as he did by Endor, would even bother accepting Palpatine's offer, if it were ever presented.

An offer to be Palpatine's apprentice does not seem like an offer that one refuses, at least if you want to remain in good health.

I can see no reason for Jerec to refuse such an offer. It's practically an expectation for the apprentice to eventually come to rule anyway. He doesn't seem like the type to say no to the legitimacy it would give him.

You misunderstand. If he had the power of the Valley of the Jedi, he would be so unfathomably powerful that he would be able to kill Palpatine with nothinig more than a thought.

Sure, he might accept Palpatine's offer, for as long as it would take for him to fly to Ruusan and excavate the valley depending on whether or not he knows precisely where it is when he's given the offer.

Would it be possible to do an Infinities where Jerec succeeds and becomes a rival Sith Lord? So instead of a good vs. evil civil war, or an Imperial civil war within the military, you have a bonafide Sith civil war? That'd be kind of cool.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:There's no reason its silly other than say-so. In fact, they were instrumental for Palpatine's long-term designs.

I guess it's marginally less silly than Order 66 being a dud and there being over a hundred Jedi survivors. However, like the existence of non-Yoda and non-Obi-Wan Jedi Knights, the existence of more Dark Jedi and Sith kinda take away the impression the films make about Palpatine and Vader being exclusive members to a club of the last people who know anything about the Force.

TC Pilot wrote:You misunderstand. If he had the power of the Valley of the Jedi, he would be so unfathomably powerful that he would be able to kill Palpatine with nothinig more than a thought.

Sure, he might accept Palpatine's offer, for as long as it would take for him to fly to Ruusan and excavate the valley depending on whether or not he knows precisely where it is when he's given the offer.

The Valley of the Jedi was at one point, an assignment levied to him by Palpatine during his occultation on Byss. Presumably Palpatine was either unaware that Jerec was sufficiently capable or knowledgeable to access the power of the Valley without him, or was intentionally leading him to a prophesied demise. Anyway, since he made his search and seizure of the Valley with Imperial resources and Palpatine was aware of it, I doubt he'd invite unwanted attention or ire by denying such an offer from Palpatine. To say nothing of his lust for Sith lore.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Would it be possible to do an Infinities where Jerec succeeds and becomes a rival Sith Lord? So instead of a good vs. evil civil war, or an Imperial civil war within the military, you have a bonafide Sith civil war? That'd be kind of cool.

No, the Valley was too powerful; anyone who successfully, fully, and without opposition claims its power can apotheosize himself. Without the Valley he lacks the power base to challenge Palpatine credibly. He'd be hunted down by his erstwhile comrades in the Inquisitorius.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:There's no reason its silly other than say-so. In fact, they were instrumental for Palpatine's long-term designs.

I guess it's marginally less silly than Order 66 being a dud and there being over a hundred Jedi survivors. However, like the existence of non-Yoda and non-Obi-Wan Jedi Knights, the existence of more Dark Jedi and Sith kinda take away the impression the films make about Palpatine and Vader being exclusive members to a club of the last people who know anything about the Force.

The Jedi numbered in the thousands (if you ask me this is unrealistic for their typical average individual power and collective influence); doesn't mean that the threat posed by their whole number is even remotely comparable to that of a hidden couple dozen. Also, you mistake the emphasis of importance within the films for the concepts of limits or exclusivity. Its this logic which says there was no resistance other than the ARR, no bigger ships than an Executor, no intermediate ships between Executor and the commonest one-mile Star Destroyer. Something can exist and be minor, ancillary, local, or otherwise insignificant or merely supportive in significance relative to the events, characters, and groups depicted in the films.

So, would it be a correct assumption to make that had Jerec successfully caputred the power of the Valley, Palpatine would have stood no chance against him?

Publius wrote:Even at his full potency, it is not likely that the Galactic Emperor could withstand Jerec's power post-apotheosis. "The Dark Forces Saga, Part 6: Outcasts and Megalomaniacs Welcome" describes Jerec's brush with divinity as follows:

Jerec at last gained access to the valley, and for one lucid moment, absolute omniscience was his. The will of the Force, Chaos, the ancient civilizations of the Rakata and Xim, what lay beyond the galactic barrier, and the origins of the universe - - Jerec understood them all, and endowed with Force powers beyond imagination, he would have ruled accordingly.

Although the Galactic Emperor is the most powerful 'conventional' character (his power exceeds that even of other demigod Force users like Exar Kun, Gethzerion, and Kueller), even his power has never been likened to outright omniscience; though he has been said to be able to devise new 'Force powers' at his leisure, he has never been described as having had 'powers beyond imagination.' Had Jerec survived, he would have rendered even Darth Sidious obsolescent. Recall that in Kyle Katarn's alternate ending, he became ruler of a new Empire, which (given the timeframe) implicitly requires that he surpass even the reincarnated Galactic Emperor lurking on Byss in the Deep Core.

This thread addressed the same question, and Publius does a better summary than I would (he had the RPG supplementary quote too).

I guess it's marginally less silly than Order 66 being a dud and there being over a hundred Jedi survivors.

100 survivors out of 10,000 Jedi makes for a 99% success rate. That's not a "dud" in anyone's language.

QuentinGeorge wrote:I guess it's marginally less silly than Order 66 being a dud and there being over a hundred Jedi survivors.

100 survivors out of 10,000 Jedi makes for a 99% success rate. That's not a "dud" in anyone's language.

mmm, there are times and places when 99% success isn't good enough (like in an air-traffic control tower)

Jaevric wrote:

lord Martiya wrote:I don't know a lot on their exact ability, I was talking basing only on the impression that she maked on me. At least politically and intellectually, Lumiya seems to me having the potential to be a Sith like the ones trained by Sidious, who seems to me being not too cocky.

Ahem.

If you want "cocky," I direct your attention to Darth Maul. Who would have killed Obi-Wan Kenobi and walked away from Naboo if he'd just chopped Kenobi's hand off while Kenobi was dangling from the edge of the pit instead of screwing around scraping his lightsaber against the pit edge to make sparks. Darth Tyrranus/Count Dooku, who was blinded by his own confidence in his innate superiority right up to the moment Anakin chopped his hands off. And, of course, Anakin loses an arm and two legs to Obi-Wan Kenobi, in part due to overconfidence. Then there's Sidious himself, who lets his own overconfidence blind him to the idea that Vader might ever turn against him, resulting in Palpatine's abrupt and involuntary departure from his throne room on the DS II.

Cockiness is definitely not going to disqualify someone from being a Sith apprentice, presuming they can back it up.

I know that even they sinned of overconfidence. But not at the point of Mara, who failed to kill Luke (or at least challenge him) because a ridicously high overconfidence maked her fail to realize how she could procede with that speeder, or who failed to kill the leader of the Black Nebula because she thinked to can do everything (Mara is a redhead, but she isn't Kim Possible) and only a lot of time later she realized the error. A Sith can be cocky, but a Sith cocky like Mara is a dead Sith.

TC Pilot wrote:You misunderstand. If he had the power of the Valley of the Jedi, he would be so unfathomably powerful that he would be able to kill Palpatine with nothinig more than a thought.

And at the time of Endor, Jerec had no clue where the Valley was. He interrogated Qu Rahn telepathically and found the map to reach the Valley years later. I can't see why Jerec would refuse access to Sith Lore in the interim. Even though he has plans to overthrow the Emperor, the Emperor at this stage still knows far more than he does. Aside from fear of being used as a disposable-apprentice like Count Dooku, I see no reason for him to say no (which is after all, probably a death sentance).


Also... Inifinities-Katarn/Jerec and the Reborn Emperor fighting? This has to go on my list of fanfics to write...

Battlehymn Republic wrote:So, would it be a correct assumption to make that had Jerec successfully caputred the power of the Valley, Palpatine would have stood no chance against him?

There are a number of ways Jerec could have killed Palpatine had he captured the Valley's power:

-blow up Byss with a thought
-collapse Byss' star with a thought
-exploded Palpatine's brain with a thought
-etc.

Jerec would be a god if he gained the Valley's power. Not some weak Olympian god, mind you, but a full-fledged omnipotent, infinite God from the Old Testament.

NecroLord: Which is why I included the qualifier "depending on"

TC Pilot wrote:Jerec would be a god if he gained the Valley's power. Not some weak Olympian god, mind you, but a full-fledged omnipotent, infinite God from the Old Testament.

Not actually read the Old Testament too much, have you? People's perceptions of it, maybe. But I don't see Uber-Jerec being defeated by Iron Chariots.

Mind you, just because he has great power to destroy doesn't mean he can necesserily, say, create life from nothing...

Methinks you shouldn't take things so literally.

And pass up the opportunity to mock the difference between people's conception of the god of the bible and what the book actually says about it? Nah.

Palpatine is just as likely to find some kid from the gutter as he did with Maul then to take an already powered up and trained Force user, like Dooku or Anakin.

Actually finding a child would be the ideal. Maul would never have turned on Palpatine as Anakin did. And as Emperor, it's not like he wouldn't have the time to find and train one, especially if you take into account the EU wank of transferring his essence to his clone bodies. Also why take on an apprentice that would eventually try to over throw him, again, like Dooku and Anakin both planned along with all the others mentioned in the OP, when he can train the kid and not mention that part of Bane's Sith teachings. "I am the Master and will always be the Master. You will always answer to me." More like a full powered Hand than an apprentice and eventual successor.