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I've heard a few people insist that Anakin's "dreams" and "premonitions" of his mother dying and Padme dying were deliberately "planted" in Anakin's mind by Palpatine (presumably without him knowing).

I want to know why people think this... It doesn't seem obvious to me at all.

Did Palpatine somehow setup Shmi getting married to Clieg Lars, wandering away one day to pick non-existent mushrooms and get captured by Tuskens, so she could be tortured and Anakin could show up in time to massacre everyone in the vicinity after she dies?

Seems pretty danged improbable... and then how was the death thing supposed to work for Padme? Did Palpatine setup all of that pregnancy and choking his own wife stuff with Obi-Wan stowing away and pissing him off after Order 66 too?

Please tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this theory is BS...

I'm not saying it's probable, just not impossible. It seems to me that a man who manipulated the Galactic Republic, the CIS, the Jedi Order, and sundry other events, people, and organizations, such a thing wouldn't be prohibitively difficult.

I seem to recall Mike making a comment on this when responding to AOTC several years ago. He noted that when Anakin tells Padme about what he did to the Tuskens, the soundtrack is not Vader's theme but the Emperor's, implying that Palpatine had at least some involvement in this situation.

Now I'm not saying that Palpatine put the images in Anakin's head, but it is well known that disturbances in the Force involving one's loved ones will show up on a Force-user's mental radar. Palpatine easily has the reach to set up Shmi to take a fall, inciting Anakin into a rage that helps him along the path to the Dark Side. Note too that Anakin confided his massacre of the Tuskens to Palpatine, his confidante - this gave Palpatine leverage over him later on.

Vader uses this effect to lure Luke to Bespin. But interestingly, in the case of both Anakin and Padme, and Luke and his friends, the disturbance was something that would happen, not something that was happening. This would require a great deal of planning, not so much on the part of Vader, but definitely on the part of Palpatine. The ROTS novelisation makes it clear that Palaptine was feeding Anakin's distrust of Obi-Wan and Padme. If Anakin confided his dreams to Palpatine, all the Sith Lord would have to do is stoke the fires a bit, playing on Anakin's inner conflicts - "You can't trust anyone but me" "Only I can save Padme".

Palpatine probably didn't care if Padme would really live or die, just the effect this would have on Anakin. Similarly, he seemed to have intended Obi-Wan to die during Order 66 - he certainly didn't want him crippling his apprentice. The only reason that he was concerned with Obi-Wan at all was to break his influence over Anakin.

In light of this, there are a couple of interesting lines in the ROTS novelisation from Dooku, where he muses that the Jedi submit to the will of the Force, while the Sith bend the Force to their will; and that Palaptine was always open to opportunities that the Force provided.Certainly, Palaptine was Force-Sensitive enough to have forseen the same events Anakin saw, and that would have helped him maximise their potential advantage.

Conclusion: no, there isn't enough evidence to prove that Palpatine placed the images in Anakin's head, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that he exploited them.

Well see, therein lies the difference.

I have no problem seeing Palpatine as a manipulator who tries to get an angle on every situation that comes his way.

I just wonder where the heck people are pulling that stuff about Palpatine CREATING the visions in the first place, and thus orchestrating the whole thing (out of their asses, I imagine).


A lot of "fanfic" scripts of how the Prequels would go, before Episode II (and III) were made basically had Palpatine secretly ordering Shmi's death. So I guess a lot of fans thought/hoped that would be how the story was written. I don't think the movies leave that possibility likely at all.

Basically it gives Palpatine far too much credit, as if he controls everything that happens in the galaxy, like some kind of god.

Wasn't something to that effect mentioned in The Making of ROTS (or some such)?

Isn't it pretty much agreed upon that Annakin was most likely created by Darth Plagius?

Flagg wrote:Isn't it pretty much agreed upon that Annakin was most likely created by Darth Plagius?

Really? I got the feeling that Palpatine had been the one to do that. It would be sexy, however, from a plotline point of view. Killing his Master and stealing his 'son' for his own perfect apprentice.

And while I think it makes the most sense if Palpatine was sending Anakin the messages (especially as they really effected him badly and made him go way over the edge as well as stop sleeping) his visions also included Obi-Wan. It's possible that Palpatine was trying to see into the future and sending him visions of it, but I don't know how he could have seen so clearly, when Yoda has great problems with it himself.

I can't imagine dying in childbirth as a result of losing your 'will to live' is normal in Star Wars, I sure hope not anyway, so that would have been a pretty lucky guess. That whole part is full of some plot gaps. How did Palpatine know she was dead? Could he sense it? That would be... odd, wouldn't you think?

Covenant wrote:

Flagg wrote:Isn't it pretty much agreed upon that Annakin was most likely created by Darth Plagius?

Really? I got the feeling that Palpatine had been the one to do that. It would be sexy, however, from a plotline point of view. Killing his Master and stealing his 'son' for his own perfect apprentice.

Of course, Palpatine's own thoughts dismiss both possibilities. In Dark Lord: the rise of Darth Vader the Emperor recalls when he and Vader were aboard the Emperor's shuttle after the catastrophic duel on Mustafar. Sidious was worried back then that he might lose his new apprentice who had been created by the Force itself. No mention of Palpatine's involvement, nor about Plagueis.

I know it's not canon, but I'm inclined to believe there never was a "Darth Plagueis the Wise" and Palpatine just made the whole thing up. Anakin isn't perceptive enough to pick up when he's lying, so why tell him anything that's true?


But that's just me.

I tend to reject the notion of Palpatine the all knowing, and rather prefer to think of him as being used by the Force (read Fate) just like everyone else.

The man does know how to incorporate unforseen events to his advantage and engulf unexpected things into his schemes, but it's a leap to say he has his fingers in every minute thing that happens in the story.

Palpatine was set up for a fall by the powers that be every bit as much as Anakin was. The irony is, that Palpatine pretty much was the victim of a self forefilling prophacy. By trying to play off of the 'one that brings balance to the Force' and making it his, he set in motion the events that lead to his death and the actual balancing fortold.

I was wondering: those spells Palpatine/Sidious was casting in the Sithisis story in the Visionaries TPB, do they have anything do do with him manipulating Anakin or putting visions in his head? I seem to recall hearing that they were designed to increase his hunger for power somewhere...

Yes.

IIRC, according to the Ultimate Visual Guide, it increased enormous amounts of anxiety in all Jedi -- including Yoda -- and corrupted the Force.

Wonderful, so it's official then?

Kurgan wrote:Did Palpatine somehow setup Shmi getting married to Clieg Lars, wandering away one day to pick non-existent mushrooms and get captured by Tuskens, so she could be tortured and Anakin could show up in time to massacre everyone in the vicinity after she dies?

Seems pretty danged improbable...

I'll need to review AOTC but as I recall, Anakin's dreams about Shmi's death were a recent thing, something that began just a few days before he went to Tatooine to save her, not months or years.

As such, Palpatine didn't need to set up the marriage and picking the mushrooms. He just needed to set up her being captured SOMEHOW by the sandpeople.

and then how was the death thing supposed to work for Padme? Did Palpatine setup all of that pregnancy and choking his own wife stuff with Obi-Wan stowing away and pissing him off after Order 66 too?

This you are DEFINATELY reading too much into the theory. Anakin's dreams didn't give any details about how Padme died. Just that it was during child birth. All Palpatine needs is for Anakin to be totally terrified about her dying to tempt him to the dark side. He doesn't need to give him exact details. And the force choke is not what actually killed her. It was simply a bonus for Palpatine to further enrage Vader. Hell, Palpatine might have been personally planning to have her executed in order to "fulfill" the prophecy.

I'm interested in what's supposed to have "actually happened" in this case. To me it looks like Anakin's visions were real, even if they were self fulfilling prophecy (in the case of Padme). All Palpatine did was take advantage of the after-effects of these situations to further feed Anakin's delusions and get him on his side.

That said, the idea that these visions were "planted" in his mind by Sideous seems popular, so that's why I ask...

I always saw it as Palpatine exploiting Anakins feelings for his monther. Anakin probably talked about her alot to Palpatine since none of his Jedi friends would be able to relate.

Knowing how close Anakin was madeit easy for Palpatine to arrange for her kidnapping and torture by the Sand People. She didnt need to be married. If she was still a slave in town then he would have just hired someone in town to have his way with Shmi.

The clsoe relationship must have pretty much guarunteed that Anakin would get force created dreams when she is in pain.

Well that means that Anakin also wouldn't sense Palpatine's hiring of the Sandpeople and so forth...

Is that why it was convenient that he wiped out the entire tribe? So he wouldn't know about the plot?

Then that begs the question of if Palpatine went there in person or sent Dooku, Jango, Zam or somebody else to do the deed... and why nobody picked up on that and the warning flags that would have thrown up.

Anakin: Time to die, Dooku...

Dooku: ...

Anakin: Hey, wait a minute, you're thinking "I guess I shouldn't have hired those Sand people to torture your mom" You son of a... wait... you're thinking it was just a job?! Who hired you?

Palpatine: Kill him now! Here, let me help you...

Kurgan wrote:Well that means that Anakin also wouldn't sense Palpatine's hiring of the Sandpeople and so forth...

Is that why it was convenient that he wiped out the entire tribe? So he wouldn't know about the plot?

Then that begs the question of if Palpatine went there in person or sent Dooku, Jango, Zam or somebody else to do the deed... and why nobody picked up on that and the warning flags that would have thrown up.

Anakin: Time to die, Dooku...

Dooku: ...

Anakin: Hey, wait a minute, you're thinking "I guess I shouldn't have hired those Sand people to torture your mom" You son of a... wait... you're thinking it was just a job?! Who hired you?

Palpatine: Kill him now! Here, let me help you...

Palpatine had a whole network in place between the various corrupted senators and people within the CIS. It would have been easy enough to give someone a few credits with instructions to go find this slave on Tatooine and make sure she suffers for as long as possible.

That might have been cool, but instead the movie basically hands it off to us like it was just a lucky accident.

It really establishes that Anakin is, as we say around here "batshit insane" even without Palpatine standing there prodding him. The smart thing to do would be to free his mother 10 years ago and get her to Coruscant or Naboo. And if for some reason events happened as they did anyway, it would be not to massacre the Tuskens and then tell Padme and Palpatine (and have them both keep their mouths shut about it, of course).

But anyway, the issue of whether the force visions were induced by Palpatine or not is my question. If Palpatine orchestrated all these events, wouldn't the visions come without him implanting them? And if the issues were happening anyway, why would Palpatine have to be behind them to send the visions off?

I think either way, people want to give Palpatine more credit by having HIM responsible for Anakin's fall, and so they extend this back to basically everything that comes with it.

I find it much more powerful if Anakin chooses the Darkside himself, gradually, rather than having it fed to him by Palpatine in a single moment. I realize the backstory says that Ben "lost Vader" to the Emperor and that the Emperor converted him. But Anakin being "seduced by the Dark Side" to me says he was drawn to it all along, not that the Emperor had to push him into it (so it's kind of both, but Anakin freely chose the Dark Side, and Palpatine just encouraged him after he had already chosen that path).

Anyway, others may disagree, but I find that more powerful if Anakin chooses even and then chooses to reject the evil again. But him acting like a big dope throughout much of Episodes II and III, while Palpatine remains smirking in the background of every other scene is probably what encourages people to think that Palpatine "made him do it."

Ah, so Palpatine putting more temptations in front of Anakin, more reasons to be pissed off, etc completely eliminates Anakin's choices in the matter?

I like the idea of him being "seduced", which isn't being forced, but being offered something and taking it, even though you know you shouldn't. I have always looked at Anakin's turn as just that. The seduction of Anakin took place over the course of a decade and that is fine. My problem is how DIFFERENT Anakin is as a 9 year old and a 19 year old. And THAT couldn't have happened without manipulation by Palpatine.

Being a slave aside, Anakin seemed like a completely normal kid. He had friends. had good morals and beliefs, he had a sense of humor and was confident. He had ambition and dreams. He was a good worker and was creative. He didn't care what others thought about him. He had a good relationship with his mom and the kid was fucking SMART.

Anakin as a young adult, was, belligerent, couldn't maintain good relationships. Aside from when he was kicking ass, seemed to have no confidence, didn't seem to make any friends. Was obsessive, angry, violent and DUMB.

Just leaving his mom to go to "boarding school" wouldn't have had that effect on him and caused that much change in his personality. I can't imagine that much of a change without manipulation. I don't buy that he was "batshit insane" on his own.

How powerful was Palpatine's will and ability to manipulate minds? He seduced Dooku. He could hide in plain sight of the ENTIRE Jedi Council, literally inches away from it's most powerful members. As was argued in another thread, and I believe agreed upon, he manipulated billions if not trillions of minds to hide a SSD on Coruscant. It is definitely in his realm of power to utterly corrupt a persons mind, especially if he gets to start at the age of 10.

I agree that Anakin did choose the Dark Side himself, but Palpatine IMO had great influence over the mind that he eventually turned.

Palpatine had a great ability, not to see the future, but to see it and use it to his advantage. Palpatine very well could have seen all paths laid before Anakin, but clouded his mind to all but the one he wanted him to see. The visions would have come without Palpatine implementing them, but Anakin could only see the one Palpatine wanted, the one that would get Palpatine what he wanted. So, I wouldn't say that Palpatine implanted the visions, but controlled them.

The thing that really makes me believe this is that when we see Anakin having visions, they are always of someone in pain and agony, EXCEPT the vision Anakin has of Obi-Wan visiting Padme. Suspicious. Also Anakin talks about having dreams of freeing slaves and being a Jedi when he is a kid untouched by Palpatine. Pretty positive. Once he is in Palpatine's reach, they seem to turn decisively negative. Death, agony, pain and betrayal.

I'm not familiar with all the EU on Anakin from between age 10 and 20, so keep in mind I am just going off the movies and novelizations.

Ghetto: Some of the change in his personality can definitely be blamed on the Jedi as well.

Kurgan wrote:That might have been cool, but instead the movie basically hands it off to us like it was just a lucky accident.

It really establishes that Anakin is, as we say around here "batshit insane" even without Palpatine standing there prodding him. The smart thing to do would be to free his mother 10 years ago and get her to Coruscant or Naboo. And if for some reason events happened as they did anyway, it would be not to massacre the Tuskens and then tell Padme and Palpatine (and have them both keep their mouths shut about it, of course).

But anyway, the issue of whether the force visions were induced by Palpatine or not is my question. If Palpatine orchestrated all these events, wouldn't the visions come without him implanting them? And if the issues were happening anyway, why would Palpatine have to be behind them to send the visions off?

I think either way, people want to give Palpatine more credit by having HIM responsible for Anakin's fall, and so they extend this back to basically everything that comes with it.

I find it much more powerful if Anakin chooses the Darkside himself, gradually, rather than having it fed to him by Palpatine in a single moment. I realize the backstory says that Ben "lost Vader" to the Emperor and that the Emperor converted him. But Anakin being "seduced by the Dark Side" to me says he was drawn to it all along, not that the Emperor had to push him into it (so it's kind of both, but Anakin freely chose the Dark Side, and Palpatine just encouraged him after he had already chosen that path).

Anyway, others may disagree, but I find that more powerful if Anakin chooses even and then chooses to reject the evil again. But him acting like a big dope throughout much of Episodes II and III, while Palpatine remains smirking in the background of every other scene is probably what encourages people to think that Palpatine "made him do it."

Personally, I do disagree. Call me a "Sidious wanker" or whatnot, but I can't help it. Ultimately, it was Anakin's choice to accept the Dark Side -- you can't force it on anyone -- and in my opinion, to have Anakin "be drawn to it" the entire time would make him out to be a completely twisted and weak individual, rather than (as we started out in TPM) a good, sweet, kind person whose weaknesses are exploited by a power hungry manipulator in the persona of Palpatine.

That Anakin is drawn to it the entire time would cheapen Palpatine's role in the story; he's the Satan-like figure. It would make sense and prove to be more dramatic if the most powerful Jedi Knight in history was but one of his many pawns. That (which is how Lucas has it) makes Anakin's choice to reject Palpatine in RotJ all the more significant and all the more surprising.

Lest we forget, Anakin was never supposed to have titanium will. For all of his raw power and his destiny, Palpatine (his mortal enemy) was ultimately much cleverer and much more controlled. The story is better for it.

It would be foolish to give Anakin all that raw power and to then make him immune to Palpatine's manipulations. He was the lackey and minion for a reason; Palpatine dominated his every aspect because he was easily controlled.

I always assumed "seduction" is enticement, not rape.

Had Palpatine literally taken over Anakin's free will and manipulated his very life in such a way that he was "always going to fall to the dark side" (then he could have done it with anyone, right?) then it detracts I think, and violates previously established continuity.

I see Anakin as someone with an evil disposition. Sure, it might have been corrected with better teaching and without evil influences, but I think his character was not self-less enough to choose that better path. He WANTED things that he thought he deserved and didn't care about the cost or accept the reasons why he couldn't do them (ie: marry Padme, be all powerful, live in a society that was a dictatorship, etc).

He does give reasons for why he wants things the way they are, but I think deep down its his selfish desire to control things for his own benefit that is what drives him to the dark side and "makes him" (overtly) evil.

Maybe it sounds a bit Calvinist here, but I think he was always going to turn out the way he did. Sure I guess maybe foreseeing the future and doing things differently might have been able to reign him in, but I don't think his personality was actually altered by Sideous' force magic or something. He just took advantage of a bad, dumb man and made him into a worse one, by cooperating with his vanity, for the Sith's advantage.

I wouldn't blame his fall on the Jedi (what, were they supposed to pander to his insane demands?), except that they weren't able to see clearly just how dangerous he was and refuse to train him (but keep a watchful eye so the Sith, whom they couldn't see anyway, couldn't recruit him for evil anyhow).

I see the Dark Side somewhat like drug addiction. One enters into it voluntarily, and maybe even thinks they can "quit anytime" but the reinforcement of the drug creates a cycle of dependency (or perceived dependency) that keeps the person in. Still, Anakin didn't get tricked into following the Dark Side, I think he wanted to as soon as he learned that it might be able to give him the things he wanted (and thought he deserved).

So what were the Jedi to do? Promise that they'd teach him that stuff eventually? Give in to all his demands? Palpatine lied to him anyway.

That Dooku would sign up to me doesn't show that Palpatine is all-powerful (that he could convert someone who'd been a faithful Jedi for over 70 years) but that being a Jedi doesn't guarentee a good person who will be immune from greedy desires. So I see the Sith less as the drug itself or the first person that gets you experimenting, but more more as the dealer who says he'll give you your next big fix and a nice weekly supply and let you in on the action if you just go kill that rival dealer for him. He gets you to take the last step into depravity, on the path you'd already turned to long ago.

When Anakin is little, he's a youngin. He isn't aware of his power, he hasn't gone through puberty yet, his life is simple and he doesn't have a lot of temptations. As he matures, he realizes what he wants out of life and goes out going for it the wrong way.

I'm sure lots of nasty people in history started out as sweet and/or unassuming little kids (and probably plenty of great people were bratty/bad kids too).

A lot of people thought Anakin should have been little Damien or something to show how he'd be evil later. I don't have a problem with him being a "good kid" (though I personally wouldn't have started the prequels with his childhood at all) and falling to the dark side later.

It's not that the people who fall are weak.. they're strong and ambitious, I guess its their weakness for power that makes them insusceptible?

When Anakin is describing what the Sith are (in contrast to the Jedi) to Palpatine I think he's accurately describing himself at that point.


Anakin's childhood is really only problematic, I think, if you buy into the idea that Palpatine himself (or through Plageuis) actually created Anakin and knew about him on Tatooine and somehow manipulated his discovery. I'm of the opinion that Palps never knew or cared if he existed until the Battle of Naboo (or rather, its aftermath), just as Vader didn't know of Luke's existence or his importance until Yavin).

This is ridiculous. There's no difference between Anakin's dreams and Luke's. They see what they see because of the Force. Sidious isn't casting spells on Anakin any more than Vader was on Luke.

Jesus Tittyfucking Christ, I never asked for a goddamn thing from you before, but now I beseech you:

Please don't let this bullshit become canon!