StarDestroyer.Net BBS

We know that Palpatine's sanity began to slip primarily during the Dark Empire crisis due to the genetic tampering of his clone bodies as well as the instability provided by the raw dark side energies within his very corrupted soul.

But was Palpatine "insane" from the very beginning? It seems that, after his duel with Mace Windu, he seems to have bouts of psychopathy. Take into account his duel with Master Yoda in the Rotunda; were his cackles merely an attempt to weaken Yoda's already fragile spirit or did he, at that point, enjoy the engagement and find Yoda amusing? He bounces back and forth from serious (he doesn't seem interested in fighting Yoda at first) to believing the situation to be downright hilarious (the pod situation). Immediately after the duel is ending, he's still laughing -- even though he's hanging off the edge of a pod from a relatively immense height. Shira Brie in the Legacy of the Force series refers to Palpatine as a "galaxy conquering madman".

I remember, once, Charles Manson was asked if he was "insane" and he responded with the phrase "that's relative".

Can we consider Palpatine insane prior to the fate of his clones in Dark Empire? And if so, does insanity really limit one's intelligence? Consider that he was still capable of forming frighteningly complex and effective schemes and plans well into his reign as Emperor.

[/i]

Well, personally, I have always believed Palpatine to have to be at least a little insane. Regardless of ambition, generally sane people don't plot to take over Galaxies and starting wars in which he is conveniently the leader of both opposing forces.

During the extensive duel in the Senate chamber, Palpatine tried to utilize Dun Möch against Yoda, and it never worked against him, although he kept on trying. The sudden laugh at the end in my mind came from the battle ending in an outright victory for Palpatine, where his dialouge from the start of the fight indicates that he believed that he would lose. Furthermore, a Sith Lord would only gain power from enjoying a fight, so although he might have gone a little overboard, I find nothing wrong with him trying to batter away at Yoda's spirit and to try to derive power from the enjoyment of a fight, as most Darksiders tend to do.

But I do not believe that his insanity limited his intelligence. I would call the audacity to sit in the Senate hall and relatively quickly turn the entire Republic against those who guarded it for 25,000 years or so insanity. His insanity helped him pull these things off, and it also boosted his ambition. It seemed to me (again) that Palpatine could simply not envision losing, which helped him pull off these mind-boggling achievements.

Well he was definitely nuts in and after DE. I don't think he was nuts before that though.

What I saw was a man who had just been keeping his very happy (look how much he was laughing) personality in check. Once his enemies were essentially defeated and he had complete control over the Republic, he was able to let his true personality out. I mean how long do you think that he had to pretend to be the stoic senator/chancellor as well as the evil methodical Sith Lord. Now at last, he could just be Palpatine. He could revel in all his power and his glorious victory. The problem is that with his victory seemed to come a real thick layer of arrogance which eventually led to his defeats.

Probably the so-called 'Clone Madness' of the last Palpatine clone was simply a Clone STUPIDITY: the genetic tampering could do something similar to the Alzhaimer, simply evidencing the madness of Palpatine via stupidity (the Palpatine that we saw in ROTS is a lot smarter of the one in the last part of DE).

At times in the fight, it's my opinion that Palpatine really is in fear of his life. He seemed confident at first, then Yoda staged a comeback and slammed him into his own chair. Then he tries to run off, and he variously swings back and forth between exhaulting in (impending) victory and screaming in rage/terror...

Looking at it from his point of view, of course, it must be tremendously exhilarating to see the gret Jedi Order brought to its knees. Remember that the last few times the Sith have fought, they've been defeated. Ranging from Darth Maul, Count Dooku, and even further back, to Rusaan, when they definatively lost against the Jedi Lords, and ended up committing mass suicide.

Now here he, Sidious, is, having destroyed the Jedi Order and beating their Grand Master.

To me, it's more a matter of Palpatine sliding down a continuum of madness over 20 years, and then going the rest of the way in the time that he was just a force ghost and then was cloned. Yes he was a little mad in RotS, but by RotJ he's gone pretty far off the deep end, and is in full fledged evil overlord mode, explaining his plans before they are enacted and everything. I tend to regard RotJ Palpatine as past his mental prime, and maybe more than a little unstable from studdying the dark side and his own self-love.
There is no doubting that DE Plapatine had gone off the deep end, especially in regards to the force. When it came to manipulating other people, he still seemed competent, but Force Users seem to be a bit of a week spot.

It's generally regarded that the trauma of his first death, having to share a body with Jeng Droga (who went mad and was badly crippled by his attempted suicide), and enduring a interstellar voyage through space as nothing more than an disembodied spirit whose mastery of the Dark Side was shattered, are what destabilized Palpatine to such an extent.

Personally, I don't see Palpatine laughing as a sign of insanity. He's just enjoying himself now that decades of careful planning and manipulation, and the fufillment of a thousand years of waiting and preparation, are complete.

It's not that I regard Palpatine's "laughter" as a sign of insanity, either, but I don't regard him as completely stable after his duel with Mace.

What does insanity mean?

Technically speaking, it's a legal term meaning whether one is responsible for their actions - do they understand morality? Palpatine most certainly did his entire life, judging morality on his own terms.

What about colloquially - is he mentally or psychologically ill or disordered? Does he have any personality disorders? He is definitely a malignant narcissist in the extreme. He may also be a sociopath, being unable to have his behavior directed or coerced by rational authorities and not regarding other individuals as being equivalent to himself.

Very informally, perhaps one means that he makes obviously poor decisions. Is he incapable of reason? He may be irrational; perhaps at several states he ought to have settled for a more mundane victory and resigned himself to certain defeats or failures. But all humans are at times irrational. It is not in his personality, anymore than it was part of Caesar's or Napoleon's, etc. That doesn't make him insane, and most of his interpersonal characteristics are well-explained by the fact he simply has no peers. Its really inevitable for any god-like personality. Really, nothing he does is much out of character or tendency for megalomaniacal despots. One can say he should have settled for a hegemony without having turned Skywalker to his apprentice, but that wasn't who he was anymore than Napoleon could acclimatize Europe to his grandeur after Tilsit, as was advised by Talleyrand. There are cliches about hubris and powerful men. One tends to fall to the tendency of perfect hindsight.

One remembers also the dictum of Master Yoda, that one who starts down the path of darkness will always have it dominate their destiny. And one may recall that Skywalker raised his blade to strike lethal blows toward his own sister. And one recalls the value and power given to Palpatine by Luke's father as his apprentice. Of course Palpatine seems smarter in ROTS than ROTJ or DE or EE; in the former his risks pay off completely and he wins. He goes on to miscalculate and lose twice, and then he is driven to desperation in the pursuit of saving his life - hardly inhuman or unusual actions. But whether situational or contextual stupidity or failure is equivalent to generalized insanity or stupidity by the virtue of comparison to another specific instance when he happened to be correct and win, I find a weak argument.

I'm not questioning Palpatine's intelligence rather than his sanity. I'm one of the few people who believe that the Emperor was still brilliant and still a capable and cunning manipulator even in Dark Empire, though his slipping sanity prevented him from utilizing his intellect to its fullest.

It's not that I'm arguing that he seems "dumber" in post-RotS appearances, either. One could even argue that he appears even more brilliant and cunning because of his near omniscience. We've seen him, well into his reign as Galactic Emperor, manipulate and deceive highly intelligent beings and groups such as Mon Mothma, Admiral Ackbar, the Bothan Spynet, Prince Xizor, Grand Admiral Thrawn, and Darth Vader on numerous instances.

But his personality seems completely different. Whereas Darth Sidious (during the PT) was a cold, calculating mastermind who seemed completely rational, Emperor Palpatine is that same cold, calculating mastermind without any semblance of rationality about him. There have been several implications in works (such as SotE) that the Emperor is, at that point, completely and utterly only concerned with what amuses him and what sates his hunger rather than any true ambition or goal.

Before his character and actions and goals were restrained by necessity and circumstances. When unrestrained, he changes. This is not surprising. One could argue Napoleon was more rational and grounded when he was a general of the French First Republic and abandoned sensibility when he was an autocrat victorious on all fronts. This is not a matter of sanity but sensibility. He becomes less restrained when he finally is allowed to cast off the facade and murder Jedi. He is further unrestrained when he claims the apprentice he's sought for a decade. Then there is the acclamation as galactic despot and the genocide of the Jedi Order. And ultimately, after he conquers even death before Yavin, he has truly removed all practical restraints. It is therefore unsurprising his megalomania and pervasive, malignant narcissism becomes more pronounced and less restrained. Furthermore, this lack of restraint overcoming good sense is an established failing of his kind of character: it is hubris. And this is INTENTIONAL - it is a basic theme of the STAR WARS saga: "Your overconfidence is your weakness." Like the ancient Greek tragedy, hubris is the downfall of the powerful man. Ambition's debt must be paid.

You have to understand that I lack a decent education in psychology, so pardon if I ask a stupid question: is Palpatine being "completely unrestrained" the same thing as "insanity"?

Insanity is a legal term, not a psychological one.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Insanity is a legal term, not a psychological one.

So, strictly speaking regarding psychology, there is no such thing as insanity.