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Not very long ago, I picked up my first EU books (Survivor's Quest and Outbound Flight), and after reading them was glad my previous belief that all Star Wars EU books were silly had been confirmed. It's not that they weren't entertaining...it's just that there was way too much wankery (Jedi, Chiss, Uber-weapons or otherwise), and that Zahn felt it necessary to mention that Palpatine hated aliens on every other page. It's kind of like a glorified fanfic.

So recently I've started looking for an interesting area which hasn't been touched much by Star Wars media in general and so is open to being fleshed out, and has not of yet been rendered ridiculous. The most interesting area seems to be the time period centered around the foundation of the Republic: The time when Hyperdrive and Blaster technology started truly entering the scene.

From what I've gathered from Wookieepedia it seems that galactic civilization was intially spread out by the Rakata Empire (The civilization that built the Star Forge from KOTR) as well as by sleeper ships from Coruscant.

Eventually, the civilizations in the Core re-discovered hyperspace and over various centuries built a network of Hyperspace Cannons (Constructs that would launch a starship into hyperspace. The starship would then have systems onboard which would induce a sort of drag to slow the ship down and bring it out of hyperspace) connecting various systems together. Wookieepedia say that Duros was linked to Coruscant and various other worlds which had been colonized by Coruscanti sleeper-ships, by this 'Hyperspace cannon' network.

Various civilizations, not long before the founding of the republic, all at once and separate from eachother created Hyperdrives (Supposedly by backwards engineering Rakata Hyperdrive technology and removing 'Dark side of the force' elements from it. ). The most notable of these being the Corellians and the Duros, who began selling it to neighboring star systems. Not long after this a series of wars known as the 'Unification Wars' went down, which led to the formation of the Galactic Republic by a group of Core Worlds. These were called the Core Founders and consisted of mainly Human worlds, along with Caamas, Duros and Giju (Home of the Herglics).

My question is about the scope of pre-republic Core civilization. Extrapolating from current maps of the Star Wars Galaxies, Duros is various thousands of light years away from Coruscant. If we assume Coruscant has been sending out sleeper ships for 40,000 years, and that in that time they have explored a volume of galaxy of roughly 10,000 cubic light years around Coruscant (This is a totally arbitary number. I'm assuming Duros is about 5,000 light years from Coruscant, though it is probably much more distant), how many planets would exist in that region which would be suitable for life? For the purposes of this problem, let's assume that the average stellar density in the Core region is 20 stars per cubic parsec, and that half those stars have some sort of habitable body orbiting them.

Do you think this would produce a workable estimate of how many planets where within the influence of the founding systems of the Republic? Perhaps from this, we could even begin to postulate about how and why the Unification War were fought, and the scale. In AOTC, palpatine states that there "Has not been a full scale war since the formation of the republic", so something pretty brutal and epic most have gone done all those thousands of years ago.

I do think that this is more clear proof of how silly the EU is in regards to scale. They probably just picked random planets to be Core Founders which looked like they were "close" on the maps....without realizing that without hyperdrive capable ships, it would take various centuries, perhaps even millennia to travel from one system to another.

He criticises Zahn. Burn the heretic.

But moving on…

Zahn felt it necessary to mention that Palpatine hated aliens on every other page

I agree this is one of the most stupid brain bugs in the EU, especially considering the numerical disadvantage humans would be at in the SW universe.

was intially spread out by the Rakata Empire

The Rakata only held a few hundred planets, I believe the Hutts were the big galactic players prior to the Republic and that the unification war may well have been against them.

Also although I realise that pre Republic SW is not very consistent canonically I though the Duras/Correlians invented the hyperdrive independently of Rakata technology. Has this been added in by the KOTOR comics?

without realizing that without hyperdrive capable ships, it would take various centuries, perhaps even millennia to travel from one system to another.

There must have been ftl prior to hyperdrive for the interplanetary wars to occur. Maybe some crazy unsafe method of subspace travel perhaps?

Do you think this would produce a workable estimate of how many planets where within the influence of the founding systems of the Republic?

Remember that the aliens would be colonising as well, not to mention the other human worlds like Corelia, Alderann ect ect.

According to Wookiepedia, the Rakata had 500 planets.

Planets dispersed across the Galaxy (Coruscant, Tatooine, Kashyyk, Duro, Manaan, Korriban, Corellia, Honogr, Drall, Selonia and Dantooine are the one that I know, and perhaps Dathomir), so its exact area of controlled space is unknown.

There were also a number of smaller empires, like that of Xim the Despot. Those were pretty old.

The earliest interstellar civilizations, strangely, developed outside of the Core. The Rakatan are from the Unknown Regions, Hutt Space is, I think, in the Outer Rim, and was close enough to Xim the Despot's domain to fight and destroy it.

Coreward groups, particularly Corellians, colonized planets fairly slowly, which, I believe, include Alderaan and Kuat. Duros did as well, resulting in Neimodians, but they never formed empires, so to speak. And by 25,000 BBY the rudimentary Old Republic was founded.

Of course, there are examples of pre-Republic technology like Centerpoint, the Corellia system, and possibly the Maw which were created by "Celestials/Architects," and might possibly be the Rakatan, or some other lost species. Frankly, it's quite a coincidence that so many groups (ones that were enslaved by the Rakatan, no less) could develop hyperdrive at just about the same time completely seperate from one another.

I have been a long time reader, but this is my first post. Well I know I have also wanted to know more about the pre-Republic civilizations as well. As someone else mentioned, I have always wondered if humans developed some sort of FTL travel long before 25,000 BBY. I believe no definitive date has been given for the use of hyperspace cannons, but I always figured humans had to have some sort of FTL between 200,000 BBY – 25,000 BBY.

Considering that the humans of Coruscant defeated a race, the Taungs who fled to Roon, that were capable of space travel in 200,000 BBY and that they had a city planet by 100,000 BBY you would think they would be at the level of technology where FTL travel would be possible long before hyperdrive was invented in 25,000 BBY.

You also have to consider that according to Wookieepedia the Azure Imperium long predated the Republic and had an empire lying along the Perlemian Trade Route. I think it would be hard to create and defend an empire with sublight sleeper ships. You also have to consider that some sort of FTL had to be in use pre-25,000 BBY because of existence of other highly advanced human pre-Republic civilizations like the Seoularians, the Kingdom of Cron/Xim’s Empire, and the Kashi Mer Dynasty.

Lastly, it seems with the extent of human colonization from the core to the outer rim pre-25,000 BBY and with the prevalence of near-human civilizations thoughtout the galaxy that some sort of FTL had to be there long before the Republic existed.

On a related topic, does anyone know if in the New Essential Chronology or any other source for that matter, that sleeper ships were sublight or is that something that is being assumed?

TC Pilot wrote:The earliest interstellar civilizations, strangely, developed outside of the Core.

Minor nitpick, but that's not really strange at all. The planets of the Mid Rim and thereabouts (of any spiral galaxy, really) are bound to be the most habitable. While most of the canonical Core Worlds are Earth-like, they're the exception rather than the rule; the further you go Coreward, the less likely you are to find worlds capable of naturally supporting life.

The Core is important in its incomprehensibly vast material and energy resources. Planets like Coruscant, Kuat and Chandrilla are really just islands of habitability where the people who manipulate the tremendous flow of (inorganic) resources live. As galactic civilization developed, it's only natural for those to become major economic and political hubs. But, as you probably know, most of the farming and racial origin worlds are all further out.

What about some form of FTL, gradually getting faster over time due to improved shielding, propulsion, mapping, power generation & heat dissipation, number of cheeseburgers needed to run it, whatever?

For instance, around 200k BBY, FTL may have been available that Archer's Enterprise would have dragged off at lights, but available nonetheless. From that small base, the inevitable demands for someone to go faster (couriers, military, criminals, wealthy wankers, etc) would push the envelope upwards, with the stuff behind the bleeding edge filtering into wider use after the bugs get worked out and someone figures out a way to cheaply produce it on an industrial scale.

At the latest by the Palpatine Era, if not (much) earlier, it seems like the drive isn't the limit on the ship's velocity - astrogational information, shielding, the skill of the mug flying it, etc all seem to impose stricter upper bounds than the drive full-throttle, balls-to-the-wall. Thus, there's simply no need to improve the hyperdrive's brute capability when other stuff can be more easily boosted.

Darth Raptor wrote:Minor nitpick, but that's not really strange at all. The planets of the Mid Rim and thereabouts (of any spiral galaxy, really) are bound to be the most habitable. While most of the canonical Core Worlds are Earth-like, they're the exception rather than the rule; the further you go Coreward, the less likely you are to find worlds capable of naturally supporting life.

You're confusing the Core Worlds (the Core for short) with the galactic core. The 'Deep Core,' was in fact not actually thoroughly accessible, if at all, until Palpatine organized a massive exploration effort of the region, and even then it's not a particularly rich region of space (which helps to explain why Pellaeon abandoned it for backwaters like Bastion).

The Core is important in its incomprehensibly vast material and energy resources. Planets like Coruscant, Kuat and Chandrilla are really just islands of habitability where the people who manipulate the tremendous flow of (inorganic) resources live. As galactic civilization developed, it's only natural for those to become major economic and political hubs. But, as you probably know, most of the farming and racial origin worlds are all further out.

You do realize that a huge minority, maybe even a majority, of sentient beings live in the Core Worlds, yes? The Core Worlds are where the people, money, culture, and industry are located. The Colonies are where the resources are (or were).

fnord wrote:What about some form of FTL, gradually getting faster over time due to improved shielding, propulsion, mapping, power generation & heat dissipation, number of cheeseburgers needed to run it, whatever?

A Czerka employee in KOTOR (on Tatooine, I believe) made a comment on how "every year the droids get a little smatter and the hyperdrives a little faster." There's no real technological advances at that point, just constant refinement of previously invented tech.

darthscott wrote: On a related topic, does anyone know if in the New Essential Chronology or any other source for that matter, that sleeper ships were sublight or is that something that is being assumed?

According to the New Essential Chronology, the first sleeper ships were 'suspended animation vessels that took centuries to reach distant stars'. NEC also says that these sleeper ships from Coruscant reached Metellos, Alsakan, and Axum.

Thanks, my copy is currently buried under a ton of other books. Well at least that still leaves the door upon for some form of early FTL. Maybe it could be something like what is seen on UNSC ships of the Halo universe, where they have FTL but the length of the jumps require cryo chambers.