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It seems to me that the Emperor had his own grandiose schemes, and he wasn't much of a Sith traditionalist. Maybe I've been reading too many AU stories, but it seems that he behaved rather unorthodox for a Sith, including perhaps not following the Rule of Two to the letter. Though he had a lot of acolytes, adepts, Hands, and inquisitors who weren't true Sith, but rather 'Dark Jedi', and so maybe he could have gotten off on a technicality, I doubt the long-dead spirits were very happy with what he was doing. After all, his Empire was not a Sith one, and he implemented some non-Sith policies such as technocracy, the rule of fear through not the Force but military and technology, and anti-alien bigotry.

So I was wondering about Palpatine's legions of Dark Side users. First off, why did he organize them in the decentralized way that he did, other than for the fact that EU writers come up with new super-secret groups every other game or comic? I guess it would be to have a bunch of rival orders running about, carrying out dirty works in his name, competing with each other in some sense.

Second, while the government and the military certainly had clear strongmen who organized to act as his successors (Ysard, Hissa, Thrawn, Zsinj, Daala, the list goes on), why wasn't there ever a clear Sith/Dark Side figure to serve as Sith Lord after Palpatine? Well, besides his clone self, but that doesn't count. I'm aware that most of them were dead, and the EU writers of say- Dark Empire- would have no idea about Jerec and his followers or Jax and his guardsmen or the Prophets were to come, but still. I'm surprised that there was no Dark Side character powerful enough to unite the Dark Jedi remnants and assert their authority as heir to the throne or superwarlord. Certainly, groups such as the Shadow Academy did become quite a challenge against the NR and NJO, but it appears that until the Legacy era, the Dark Side Force users just kind of end up becoming the Imperial Remnant's version of Old Republic Jedi- they're around, alright, but with some exceptions they're fully subordinate to the state.

So those are two questions, and here are two ideas- One, could and should there have been a Dark Side successor to Palpatine and Vader? I think that Jerec, as always, was a strong contender, but unfortunately he chased after the Valley of the Jedi and ran afoul of Kyle Katarn. I think now that the EU for that era has been almost fully laid out, we can posit an Infinities AU where Jerec, Carnor Jax, Lumiya, and most of the Dark Side remnants that we know about (other than the always-reclusive Prophets) join together.

And for a less canon idea- what if Vader wasn't the highest in command as far as a Dark Sider went? Certainly he would have been dark Lord of the Sith, and Palpatine's most loyal hatchetman, but I kind of like the idea that instead of Vader rubbing shoulders against politicians such as Tarkin, or even civilian courtiers such as Xizor, maybe his position as closest to Palpatine was challenged by another Dark Side user. Perhaps it could be Galvetron's hypothetical “Prince Jerjerrod”, but what I have in mind is someone who is physically close to Palpatine- perhaps his true bodyguard and personal protector, who stays in Coruscant (or wherever) at the Emperor's side, while Vader goes around doing Palpatine's dirty work. What I kind of have in mind is perhaps a Carnor Jax who is stronger, knows some Sith stuff, though isn't really one. He could be dressed in a blood-red version of one of those freaky old-school sci-fi armors that the Byss mages war in Dark Empire- all large and spiky, with a cloak underneath.

So, thoughts and opinions?

Battlehymn Republic wrote:It seems to me that the Emperor had his own grandiose schemes, and he wasn't much of a Sith traditionalist. Maybe I've been reading too many AU stories, but it seems that he behaved rather unorthodox for a Sith, including perhaps not following the Rule of Two to the letter. Though he had a lot of acolytes, adepts, Hands, and inquisitors who weren't true Sith, but rather 'Dark Jedi', and so maybe he could have gotten off on a technicality, I doubt the long-dead spirits were very happy with what he was doing. After all, his Empire was not a Sith one, and he implemented some non-Sith policies such as technocracy, the rule of fear through not the Force but military and technology, and anti-alien bigotry.

What does it mean to contradict the Rule? Are the dead Sith original constructionists, obsessing over the word and original character of the previous Sith movements and cults? Or would they be more pragmatic? One needs to understand the original intent of the Rule in order to see if Palpatine was a heretic.

The purpose of the Rule of Two was twofold. Firstly, limit the vulnerability of the Sith by making them anonymous or unknown. Two Sith in the shadows are both much more insidious and hard to defend against, and also harder to identify and strike. The prequels are rife with examples. In the original films and era, Palpatine used his "hands-off" administration and information-control to conceal his and even Vader's (ref: Death Star) overt identity as Dark Lords of the Sith, which served the first aim of the Rule amply.

Secondly, suppress infighting by having two sole true members within the Sith. If the master kills a plotting apprentice, then that apprentice was obviously too weak or did not boast support by the will of the dark side of the Force. If the apprentice kills his master, then clearly the master was too weak and the apprentice was worthy of replacing him or her. The limited nature of the Ordinal Sith allowed the Sithian tradition of infighting to serve as a trial by ordeal. It became a tool to sharpen and strengthen the Sith and prune its initiates of the weak or inauspicious.

The lesser minions of the "Theocracy of Two" never came close to either earning the depth of knowledge of Sith lore permitted the duumvirate. None among them approach either the natural potential or realized strength of the great Force-using demigods that made up the Order. Even Inquisitor Jerec, a former fully-realized Jedi Master of the old Jedi Order and an archaeologist specializing in the Sith, failed to match even Vader in his access or knowledge of Sith esoteria, much less the natural potential or realized strength of the Chosen One of the Jedi prophecy.

We see that shortly after Order 66 was carried out against the Jedi Order, the Theocracy of Two began to fashion the hierarchy of Force adepts and minor cultists from among the AgriCorps. This organization is made of wash-outs and often those too weak to qualify for Jedi training proper. Therefore, we see that in most cases, the lesser minions could not qualify either as Sith formally, not could oppose the Sith on a de facto basis, simply lacking the capability.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:So I was wondering about Palpatine's legions of Dark Side users. First off, why did he organize them in the decentralized way that he did, other than for the fact that EU writers come up with new super-secret groups every other game or comic? I guess it would be to have a bunch of rival orders running about, carrying out dirty works in his name, competing with each other in some sense.

This is hardly unprecedented in the hierarchy of authoritarian regimes. Hitler first created the Sturmabteilung (storm department), or "brown shirts", before later creating and favoring the Schutzstaffel (protective squadron). The latter eventually liquidated the leadership of the former and displaced it in primacy and role within the NSDAP power structure. The compartmentalization allows Palpatine to use Force sensitives when and where useful in highly specified and limited roles, which both makes a comprehensive education within the Force unlikely and also makes unusual strength or ability obvious (which no doubt would lead to inquisitorial attention). It also prevents them from forming any sort of opposing group identity or organization to the Sith. Palpatine's hierarchy is a microcosm of the byzantine administration of the entire Empire, for largely the same reasons.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Second, while the government and the military certainly had clear strongmen who organized to act as his successors (Ysard, Hissa, Thrawn, Zsinj, Daala, the list goes on), why wasn't there ever a clear Sith/Dark Side figure to serve as Sith Lord after Palpatine? Well, besides his clone self, but that doesn't count. I'm aware that most of them were dead, and the EU writers of say- Dark Empire- would have no idea about Jerec and his followers or Jax and his guardsmen or the Prophets were to come, but still. I'm surprised that there was no Dark Side character powerful enough to unite the Dark Jedi remnants and assert their authority as heir to the throne or superwarlord. Certainly, groups such as the Shadow Academy did become quite a challenge against the NR and NJO, but it appears that until the Legacy era, the Dark Side Force users just kind of end up becoming the Imperial Remnant's version of Old Republic Jedi- they're around, alright, but with some exceptions they're fully subordinate to the state.

The power culture of the Empire at its height conspicuously excluded most potent Force sensitives from positions of conventional political and military power precisely because they were threatening enough being able to manipulate the Force. Furthermore, the driving public myths of the Empire include public disdain for the "magocrats" of the Jedi Order and regards the Sith as more of the same; remember the Empire is really the wartime Republic in slightly different clothing, and Dooku's and the Jedi coup's memory wouldn't falter so soon. Clearly there was sufficient public support for the Purge and inquisition. However, some of the highest figures, similarly cloistered to Palpatine from public scrutiny, WERE secretly dark side minions of Palpatine. Quite a few of his long-time favorites were aware of his Sith identity and were dark side adepts, and also served in his Ruling Council, serving as the de facto heads of state while he was alive. Afterward, they constituted a major component of the Emperor's Ruling Circle, which dominated Imperial galacticopolitics after Isard's regency.

Of course, Palpatine very quickly marshalled his favorites and supporters even whilst incapacitated very shortly after his near-death experience at Endor. Pestage replaced himself with an unstable clone to search for his master. Meanwhile, most "in-the-know" heirarchs (which obviously would tend to include the most loyal and capable) were recalled to the secure enclave guarded by the Imperial Hyperspace Security Net at the heart of the Deep Core (the vast majority) or placed on special assignment (like Inquisitor Jerec). The DESB is very clear that it was very unusual that they would remain on the outside - Joruus C'boath among them only because he was completely mentally unstable. This of course left the disfavored, politically impotent, and uninitiated; that Mara Jade, Lumiya, et al remained outside speaks to their uselessness to Palpatine.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:So those are two questions, and here are two ideas- One, could and should there have been a Dark Side successor to Palpatine and Vader? I think that Jerec, as always, was a strong contender, but unfortunately he chased after the Valley of the Jedi and ran afoul of Kyle Katarn. I think now that the EU for that era has been almost fully laid out, we can posit an Infinities AU where Jerec, Carnor Jax, Lumiya, and most of the Dark Side remnants that we know about (other than the always-reclusive Prophets) join together.

The habits of the secular political elite of elite within the Empire suggest otherwise, even casting aside the Sithian heritage of the heirarchy (which further disposes them to violent infighting). Sedriss would have a strong case, being the head of the Emperor's seven Dark Side Elite and obviously permitted to execute the will of Shadow Hand in Palpatine's absence. Jerec is the most powerful, and therefore the most likely. Jax and Lumiya end up in a disintegration booth, slagged planet, or business end of a blaster or lightsaber.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:And for a less canon idea- what if Vader wasn't the highest in command as far as a Dark Sider went? Certainly he would have been dark Lord of the Sith, and Palpatine's most loyal hatchetman, but I kind of like the idea that instead of Vader rubbing shoulders against politicians such as Tarkin, or even civilian courtiers such as Xizor, maybe his position as closest to Palpatine was challenged by another Dark Side user. Perhaps it could be Galvetron's hypothetical “Prince Jerjerrod”, but what I have in mind is someone who is physically close to Palpatine- perhaps his true bodyguard and personal protector, who stays in Coruscant (or wherever) at the Emperor's side, while Vader goes around doing Palpatine's dirty work. What I kind of have in mind is perhaps a Carnor Jax who is stronger, knows some Sith stuff, though isn't really one. He could be dressed in a blood-red version of one of those freaky old-school sci-fi armors that the Byss mages war in Dark Empire- all large and spiky, with a cloak underneath.

No shortage of intrigues were there against Vader. This is a likely scenario, except Palpatine seemed pretty set with Vader until a fresh candidate of equal value and potential showed up: Luke Skywalker. Certainly egotistical adepts will try.

For the record, the dichotomy between a 'mere' Dark Jedi and a Sith Lord is canonized quite explicitly in the RotS novel, comparing a mere Dark Jedi like Asajj Ventress to Darth Tyranus.

If it's good enough to get past GL's line edit ...

What does it mean to contradict the Rule? Are the dead Sith original constructionists, obsessing over the word and original character of the previous Sith movements and cults? Or would they be more pragmatic? One needs to understand the original intent of the Rule in order to see if Palpatine was a heretic.

Ah, my mistake. I believe I've picked up a non-canon speculative theory along the way. I've read a story where the Sith ghosts of old are angry at Palpatine, because the more Dark Side users, the less Force there is to go around for everyone (it was playing along the theory that there is a limited amount of the Force in the galaxy, and the more Force-users, especially Sith, the more it is drained), which would lead to the ghosts being absorbed back into the Force. In any case, the above is pure speculation (and probably bollocks), so ignore it.

But it still seems as if Palpatine's reich was no true Sith Empire. And that might have made some Sith, either living or dead, unhappy.

No shortage of intrigues were there against Vader. This is a likely scenario, except Palpatine seemed pretty set with Vader until a fresh candidate of equal value and potential showed up: Luke Skywalker. Certainly egotistical adepts will try.

My second idea was less about Palatpine trying to groom a successor, than him having other powerful Dark Sider users besides Vader around. Powerful in the both Force-strength as well as responsibility. This would lead to interesting relations between Vader and other minions of Palpatine. Perhaps Jerec initially wanted the Valley of the Jedi not to dethrone Palpatine, but merely to defeat Vader. Maybe Vader was seen as the outgoing troubleshooter around the galaxy, but on Coruscant Palpatine had another attack dog- a super-sovereign protector, who had a petty rivalry with Vader. Surely none of these Dark Jedi and quasi-Sith could defeat Vader (alone...), but they would force upon him court rivalry, though Vader had no taste for politics.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:But it still seems as if Palpatine's reich was no true Sith Empire. And that might have made some Sith, either living or dead, unhappy.

Sure, but what does Lord Darth Sidious care about the musings of relatively powerless schismatics (living Sith) or practically powerless dead cultists (dead Sith)? Certainly the various dead Imperial (of both lineages) or Fraternal (of both lineages) Sith might take exception with Lord Sidious' dogma, but only insofar that he is ALREADY a schismatic and heretic relative to them. Lord Darth Bane repudiated the methods of those Sith and pursued a different path; if they should be angered, it would be against Bane's Ordinal Sith in general for forsaking an overt Sith movement ending in an openly despotic Sith realm.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:My second idea was less about Palatpine trying to groom a successor, than him having other powerful Dark Sider users besides Vader around. Powerful in the both Force-strength as well as responsibility. This would lead to interesting relations between Vader and other minions of Palpatine. Perhaps Jerec initially wanted the Valley of the Jedi not to dethrone Palpatine, but merely to defeat Vader. Maybe Vader was seen as the outgoing troubleshooter around the galaxy, but on Coruscant Palpatine had another attack dog- a super-sovereign protector, who had a petty rivalry with Vader. Surely none of these Dark Jedi and quasi-Sith could defeat Vader (alone...), but they would force upon him court rivalry, though Vader had no taste for politics.

Vader is no slouch when it comes to court intrigues; the Lord Tagge wound up blinded and then killed, and Prince Xizor of Falleen ended up atomized due to picking fights. Palpatine will not come to Vader's rescue overtly, but it seems clear that he favors him for well-founded and developed reasons.

EDIT: I'd like to expand on the issue of the ancient Sith and their Sithian utopia. The Galactic Empire is an immature organism from Palpatine's - and by extension, the Sith's - point of view. For a thousand years the Ordinal Sith plotted and manipulated and waited. Whether they were a major cause of the institutional decay of the Republic or merely an opportunistic affliction, by the PT era they were both enjoying the failings of the Republic as well as inflicting further wounds. Palpatine's ascension is the end product of a thousand years of preparation.

We know that Palpatine's and the Sith's influence and subversion; that his/their conspiracies and hidden alliances had rendered the democracy of the Republic farcical even by TPM. By that time the Sith had secured sufficient collusion with industrial, political, and other powers that Palpatine already heads a de facto ruling junta. The extent to which its members and servants are aware of its existence is unknown. Similar to the fall of the Roman Republic, the de facto destruction of the legal political order and its supplanting by unofficial cliques and relationships among strongmen precedes the realization of overt autocracy.

From TPM forward, Palpatine's actions and plans are to secure his autocracy and legitimize or solidify his grip on power. The election secures him an official legal basis for overt power. He simply turns a faction of his shadow junta against the rest beneath an apprentice to supervise the action, thus engineering a civil war which canonizes his political status and provides the means to eliminate his various enemies of varying importance, especially the Jedi.

After Order 66 and the destruction of the Confederacy, he no longer requires a day-by-day supervision of the political affairs of the Empire. His status is unquestioned and unquestionable by the majority of the public and he has eliminated all major threats to him politically and as a Sith. So he goes about openly delving into the "science of darkness" with several major goals. First, render the technocracy obsolescent. Second, permanently subordinate the non-Force-sensitive population to his heirarchical aristocracy, itself subordinated to the Sith. Third, render defeat impossible.

To do the above he needs immense power, knowledge, and time beyond his current capabilities. To these ends, he acquires the Chosen One as an apprentice, which bolsters his strength and ability in the Force. He develops the Inquisitorius, which seeks out all artifacts and information of Force religions (Drommund Kaas, Baas' Holocron, etc.), educated individuals (Jerec), and useful organizations (the Prophets) for Palpatine's consumption. He also acquires a practical solution to the problem of mortality. In addition to defeating death, he requires an indefinite period of absolute power while he realizes his "science of darkness." The technocracy serves this need, providing a crude but able highly-militarized police-state apparatus equipped with weapons capable of neutralize any defense. Therefore, the political autonomy necessarily afforded factions (the Great Powers amongst the member states) within the Republic on the eve of Empire in order to retain their support during the war and acclamation can be overcome, as it remains one of the only potential sources of opposition to him.

Armed with the support of the Chosen One's strength in the Force, an indefinite period of security and life, and a continuously growing corpus of knowledge, Palpatine shuts himself away, allowing the Empire to run on autopilot and allowing the mundanely ambitious their squabbles and competitions for power while he develops a final solution for the galaxy.

We know from the Dark Side Sourcebook that the "Sith Master" feats allows a sufficiently powerful Sith Lord to directly empower his minions - in effect, loaning them power of his or her own. We know from Dark Empire II that this feat involves partially absorbs the recipient into the Sith Lord's will. From the Sourcebook it seems Palpatine wasn't the only member adept at this ability, and considering the large number of highly loyal, effective yet subordinate minions which surrounded each of his apprentices save Maul, we can deduce that perhaps Ventress, Lumiya, Mara Jade, etc. were very much absorbed into the will of their masters, all extremely powerful Sith Lords (Lords Tyranus, Vader, and Sidious, respectively). And all became very weak and largely impotent (this provides a handy explanation for Ventress' irrelevance post-Clone Wars) once removed from their master, and were extremely loyal and vengeful in their name. The seven "Emperor's Dark Jedi" or "Dark Side Elite" similarly explain the concept in detail. This explains both the use of such minions, how and why they were useful, and how and why they were so loyal. Since the feat of Sith Master is not portrayed or implied amongst any but the Ordinal Sith, perhaps this was a development over the centuries as a solution to the problem that however powerful, there was only so much a pair of Sith could accomplish. However, being in more than one place at once, or at least being able to apply direct control over galactic distances and amongst several minions, would help get around this problem. Perhaps the ability to directly manipulate and dominate the will and mind of others - submerging it into the Sith Lord's own will - provided a key component of the body-snatching/switching trick that Palpatine developed to cheat death.

Of course, applying this piecemeal to his minions also became possible. Perhaps Palpatine identified early in his Jedi aid, Master Jorus C'boath, a natural talent for this feat (we know specific feats an adept may be more capable in than others, witness the Halcyon lineage and absorption/remission of energy). Therefore, Palpatine had him cloned and taught him the talent as an experiment as he developed a generic and managable version of the feat he could teach to his lesser minions. We see C'boath is quite capable of controlling many at once and completely dominating others' will into his own, such as Colonel Covell and the Mount Tantiss clones. We know this talent is related somewhat to the Jedi feat of Battle Meditation, and we know that otherwise unremarkable adepts were at times very talented at this feat, such as GADM Declann. Perhaps this is an example of an evolution in Palpatine's development of a hierarchy. It also shows, especially in the case of Byss, the final form of the Empire. Using this assimilationist talent, Palpatine with the major contribution of his Sith Apprentice, ideally someone of the Chosen One talent and thus of the Skywalker lineage, would assimilate his hierarchs who would assimilate and dominate the common populace beneath them. The hierarchs on Byss had already taken to dominating the planet's populace and draining their life essences. Eventually every single being would be fully assimilated into Palpatine.

As it reads in Dark Empire, eventually the dark side would rule without any need for weapons: for no independent consciousness would exist outside the Galactic Emperor. Byss is the true prototype of a Sithian utopia. Eventually, the Dark Side Sourcebook reads, the traditional political elite of the galaxy - which really remained quite unchanged from the late Republic in the Empire - would be replaced by hierarchs. This stage is already begun by the original film era, with the Ruling Council increasingly staffed with favorites which secretly are dark side adepts. By Dark Empire, the process is yet more complete, with the political order accelerated in its dismemberment by the civil wars and rebellion, and now the internal order seemed dominated with mostly dark side adepts and headed by the seven Dark Side Elite, specifically formed because of their submersion into Palpatine's will. With the conventional political factions and bases of power fully suppressed beneath the heel of the police state and cowed by the military-industrial apparatus armed with its weapons of mass destruction and supported by limitless conventional forces, the Galactic Empire would transform into a more familiar Sithian despotate. It would be ruled by an aristocracy of lesser hierarchs paying homage by a dominating Sith duumvirate. But even this neo-Sith Empire would be rendered obsolescent once Palpatine's progressive assimilation was complete.

One sees that the Galactic Empire is as "secular" as it is because Palpatine has not had enough time to fully redecorate, not because he is no longer faithfully a Sith.

I've read a story where the Sith ghosts of old are angry at Palpatine

They seem to be a bit annoyed at him in Dark Empire, but nothing near the reception Darth Krayt received from Darths Bane, Nihilius and Anddeddu.[/i]

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The technocracy serves this need, providing a crude but able highly-militarized police-state apparatus equipped with weapons capable of neutralize any defense.

Slight nitpick, the Death Star shows that the 25k ISD-II's that were built between ABY 0 and ABY 6 is a rather lax production rate in comparison to what the Empire should be capable and the Empire is undermilitarized. I'd say rather than highly-militarized, it should be highly-militant.

The galaxy is a unified state without credible external opposition; it should unsurprising that its undermilitarized compared to terrestrial sovereign states.

However, I agree. But there's other evidence that the 25k figure is just Pellaeon being senile and that there were a lot more, such as the ISB calcs.

General Schatten wrote:Slight nitpick, the Death Star shows that the 25k ISD-II's that were built between ABY 0 and ABY 6 is a rather lax production rate in comparison to what the Empire should be capable and the Empire is undermilitarized. I'd say rather than highly-militarized, it should be highly-militant.

Twenty-Five thousand ISD-IIs alone? That is quite low....

Nevertheless, you yourself have mentioned the Death Star(s), and a huge amount of material that would have gone into producing those millions/billions of ISDs probably went there instead. It's really only the Emperor's choice between building a massive battlestation or constructing a really large fleet (plus there may be issues with economies of scale in producing that many ISDs in contrast to building the DS(s) alone). I suppose the fear factor of the Death Star would coincide more pleasantly with the Tarkin Doctrine than having another increase in the Imperial fleet. The Death Star is just plainly more terrifying.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The galaxy is a unified state without credible external opposition; it should unsurprising that its undermilitarized compared to terrestrial sovereign states.

Right. Why have need of a larger fleet when a smaller one would do just fine? There are no contenders to Palpatine's might (although I suspect that Palpatine still wanted more ships based on his need of the Death Star, and having extra would make him feel more assured). The state of affairs within the Galactic Empire can be compared to that of the Roman Empire circa Augustus. As the Pax Romana began and no major contender to the Roman Imperium presented itself, the Emperor Augustus commissioned a mere 28 legions (140,000 legionnaries) as a standstill army.

However when the Emperor Septimius Severus came to power, a period when the barbarian tribes started their advance into Roman territory, he further increased the size of the Roman army to 80 legions (400,000 legionnaries).

However, I agree. But there's other evidence that the 25k figure is just Pellaeon being senile and that there were a lot more, such as the ISB calcs.

ISB calcs? Please elaborate for those of us who don't have that much knowledge of the EU on hand.