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One of the messages given to the audience in typically ham handed prequel manner by GL is articulated by Queen Amidala's successor "Democracy fails once we stop believing in it."

Considering the state of the Republic in the prequels when Palpatine ascends to power can we clearly say that democracy failed whether you believed in it or not? Let me be clarify the point.

IN TPM a sovereign state of Naboo is invaded by the Trade Federation in an unprovoked act of war. People are being put in death camps, occupying armies are everywhere and Jedi representatives have been killed in cold blood and the Jedi themselves hunted down.

The response of the Republic is not immediate swift action. It is not an ultimatum or a relief fleet to negotiate the return of Naboo to sovereignty. Instead it gets bogged down in committees despite the fact that there are Jedi witnesses to the invasion, the very sovereign of Naboo is begging for help and anyone with a long range sensor could detect the TF presence on the planet.

Was the government, as Palpatine so helpfully point out, controlled by the bureaucrats and no longer capable of functioning? Was democracy dead and the Republic just waiting to be gobbled up by Palpatine? Once a democracy can no longer safe guard the safety of its own subjects can it be said to still function?

Imagine if you will that the Fortune 500 have their own army. They march into peaceful Arkansas and seize it. The governor escapes the invasion and is nearly killed along with a pair of high level FBI agents sent to investigate the claims of a clandestine invasion. The FBI agents and the governor testify and call for the eviction of the Fortune 500 army from Arkasas. Before anything else is debated allied states of the Fortune 500 like NY and Delaware call for a committee to investigaste claims of invasion. Can the US rationally state that it is a functioning democracy anymore if it can't even be roused to protect Arkansas?

OR

Is democracy working in TPM? Isn't part of democracy wheeling and dealing? Doesn't everyone get a voice including the TF? If they have a right to a committee to investigate allegations made against them shouldn't they be allowed to assert those rights? Isn't the very core principles of democracy = compromise? Unilateral actions against any member must clear certain hurdles like Due Process.

As another example - the government should not be able to step in and tell the Fortune 500 army peacefully training in Wall Street to get out in 48 hours or else.

Formalities need to be observed process needs to take place to ensure everyone's rights are honored even if it means some people in Naboo suffer.

Can it be said that by rushing ahead and dissolving the government Queen Amidala stopped believing in democracy and invited something much worse in.

Which is it? Democracy failed choked on its own procedural crap, paralyzed into inaction by corruption and bureaucracy. Or more like one of my favorite quotes regarding democracy from the movie Spartacus -- "I'll take a little Republican corruption along with a little Republican freedom."

I think the idea of comparing as an action within the US creates a poor comparison as the Republic has, by all appearneces, a MUCH looser federation as the concept of sovreignty still holds to some degree between planets. While the US as a federal government recognizes the right of the states to act within their own borders the Federal government still has authority (which it wields) to intervene. The Republic seems structured more towards the orginal articles of confederation or perhaps a more unified UN where member naiton-states are recognised as sovreign and agree to certain treaties of mutual interest and self defense. In such a loose structure it isn't hard for the powerful and persuasive to obscrue and obfusticate while they do as they please because the lack of strong central authority makes it possible.

So democracy is working but it is the democracy of loose confederation which, unless tied to a strong collective identity, tends towards allowing the big man on the block to do as they please since the whole structure of central government is not built towards enforcing a universal norm upon all members. The Republic seems highly geared towards seeking a consensus amongst member states rather than enforcing a majority opinion upon everyone. So i would say the Republic does exactly what is was intended to do but falls prey to the very things which doomed the Continental Congress and the early US until they re-organized the federal government.

I hesitate to even call the Old Republic a democracy, let alone that democracy in it failed, particularly when there really is not that much difference between it and the Galactic Empire.

Senator Amidala, for instance, was never elected to office. Palpatine was never elected to office by popular vote. The same Core aristocrats who ruled the Old Republic ruled the Empire. Sentient rights remained the same, etc.

TC Pilot wrote:I hesitate to even call the Old Republic a democracy, let alone that democracy in it failed, particularly when there really is not that much difference between it and the Galactic Empire.

Senator Amidala, for instance, was never elected to office. Palpatine was never elected to office by popular vote. The same Core aristocrats who ruled the Old Republic ruled the Empire. Sentient rights remained the same, etc.

The Nabooians vote for their queen, and their queen asked Amidala to serve as senator. This either means she was asked to run in a senator election or that she was appointed by the queen, who acted on behalf of the people she represented. You could argue that there was some representative democracy that was stripped away when the Galactic Empire formed.

I believe that some worlds even in the Empire still maintained some degree of representative government, even if there is some degree of Imperial coercion.

According to the Imperial Sourcebook, only 1 in 80 worlds had their government modified to comply with the New Order. So either the Empire allowed many representative governments, or none really ever existed.

I could not agree more with the posts above. It is hard to say whether democracy failed or not because the Old Republic is more a union or alliance of planets rather than a galactic government. Every planet has its own sovereign government, culture, military and local laws. I have always thought of the Old Republic as the U.N. with a military for a common defense.

TC Pilot wrote:I hesitate to even call the Old Republic a democracy, let alone that democracy in it failed, particularly when there really is not that much difference between it and the Galactic Empire.

Senator Amidala, for instance, was never elected to office. Palpatine was never elected to office by popular vote. The same Core aristocrats who ruled the Old Republic ruled the Empire. Sentient rights remained the same, etc.

That’s another good point because it seems to me that the majority of planets in the Star Wars galaxy have non-democratic governments. It looks as if monarchies, aristocracies, oligarchies, theocracies, and rule by corporations are much more common than democracies throughout the galaxy.

I also agree I do not think that a whole lot changed under the Empire at the local planetary level. It seems only another layer of hierarchy was added to galactic political structure.

Lastly, I get the impression that Senators are appointed more often than elected, like Kuat or Alderaan. I have always thought of these Senators as being more like planetary ambassadors rather than a member of a legislative body.

TC Pilot wrote:According to the Imperial Sourcebook, only 1 in 80 worlds had their government modified to comply with the New Order. So either the Empire allowed many representative governments, or none really ever existed.

The next line also says the Empire prefers to permit local governments to conform themselves to the New Order. Considering the fate of separatism in the Clone War, and the military hypertrophy of the Empire, it isn't hard to connect the dots. Quislingism is not democracy. Furthermore, simply because the structure of form of local government did not change does not mean there was a loss of representation or self-determination (the Senate was permanently "suspended" and later dissolved, it had minimal clout to oppose top-down policies, and the Empire exercised much more invasive power respective to the Imperial citizen). Many planets did not have their government changed, but this ignores states which were stripped of any independence altogether and placed under direct rule (i.e., Kashyyyk, Dac).

Furthermore, it is difficult to make firm conclusion, as we know very little about how the Republic's members select their galactic representation. We don't even know HOW it is proportioned. In many instances the senators appear to represent merely the full-member states of the galactic union (numbering a full million under the Galactic Empire). In other cases the senators appear to represent all the member states assigned to a particular sector (if a member state's fully-integrated territory or colonial possessions spread across more than a sector, how this is resolved is unknown). In still other cases, it seems associations to which member states belong or with quasi-state status (i.e., the Trade Federation).

Of course, extrinsically, George Lucas does not seem to know very much about culture, politics, economics, history, or war, since he makes very simple mistakes like this and such quite often, and seems to be confused between whether he wants his pan-galactic entity to be a soveriegn state, a confederation, or some international organization a la the UNO. Unfortunately this often leads us to be forced to conclude that the Star Warriors' politics are very naive or irrational in many cases.

As an afterthought, Naboo's invasion must be also placed in context. Naboo is a single world with a very low population, all things considered. Its a very unimportant world. It is one world belonging to a single example of a million member states (in the Imperial era). There could be on the order of nearly a quintillion individuals in the galactic community (at least many quadrillion). At best, a dozen billion (1e10) people (the population of Naboo fails me, but I doubt it is much more) versus a low estimate of a hundred quadrillion individuals (1e17) is a mere 10 millionth or so. This is like the U.S. federal government failing to act because 30 people got mugged in an alley.

Compare the number of violent crime deaths in the U.S. to its population. Compare the size of cities which we don't blink an eye at being openly corrupt in their law enforcement and contracting or whatnot. Or cities who are quite obviously undemocratic being controlled by corrupt political machines. Compare the size of their population and economy to that of the U.S. at large. Compare Detroit to the U.S. at large. All things considered, Naboo was not a big deal. The real question is why were there no local authorities Naboo could go to to ameliorate the situation - the scale-equivalent of the city cops. The real question is why should the Galactic Republic be expected to respond to Naboo-level incidents directly (and worse yet, discuss it in legislature, as opposed to having existing laws, policies, and executive agencies capable of dealing with it as a matter of course). And why should Naboo be represented by itself at all directly in such a corporate entity? Especially if there are only a thousand or so representatives.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The next line also says the Empire prefers to permit local governments to conform themselves to the New Order. Considering the fate of separatism in the Clone War, and the military hypertrophy of the Empire, it isn't hard to connect the dots. Quislingism is not democracy.

"The Empire has not completely altered the governments of hundreds of thousands of worlds. Such a task would be impractical. The Emperor has left it to his advisors to modify the portions of a planetary government, be it government procedure or members of the ruling body, to conform to the will of the Empire. Less than one planet in 80 has been so modified."

Note how of those less than 1 in 80, it does not neccesarily have to be any significant change.

"The preferred option is to let a planet run itself much as it has for years, but maintaining a visible Imperial presence so that the rulers know who their ultimate master is. The Empire also encourages the constituent planets to reform their own governments to conform to the Imperial method. In this way, individual worlds eliminate laws and freedoms, replacing them with doctrines and statutes more in line with Imperial edicts."

Until the last sentence, this is very weak language. There is no evidence of any significant collaboration with the Imperial government, which would certainly appear in a work by a pro-Rebellion historian. Furthermore, collaboration or not is irrelevant to the overall point. If representative governments became collaborators, then it is reasonable to presume it had popular support. If not representative, they were exactly as exclusive under the Old Republic. What exactly "the Imperial method" is is not particularly clear, nor can we be certain what "laws and freedoms" have been eliminated. Regardless, the excerpt is fairly clear that a huge majority of worlds seem to have not needed to be reconfigured to accomodate Palpatine's New Order.

Furthermore, simply because the structure of form of local government did not change does not mean there was a loss of representation or self-determination

I seem to recall the Empire being a wildly popular government compared to the rebellion.

and the Empire exercised much more invasive power respective to the Imperial citizen).

Only in certain instances. The Core Worlds were generally free of invasive Imperial presence, where the majority of citizens lived.

Many planets did not have their government changed, but this ignores states which were stripped of any independence altogether and placed under direct rule (i.e., Kashyyyk, Dac).

Inconsiderable minorities or outright traitors. Kashyyyk rebelled. Of course they are stripped of independence.

TC Pilot wrote: "The Empire has not completely altered the governments of hundreds of thousands of worlds. Such a task would be impractical. The Emperor has left it to his advisors to modify the portions of a planetary government, be it government procedure or members of the ruling body, to conform to the will of the Empire. Less than one planet in 80 has been so modified."

Note how of those less than 1 in 80, it does not necessarily have to be any significant change.

"The preferred option is to let a planet run itself much as it has for years, but maintaining a visible Imperial presence so that the rulers know who their ultimate master is. The Empire also encourages the constituent planets to reform their own governments to conform to the Imperial method. In this way, individual worlds eliminate laws and freedoms, replacing them with doctrines and statutes more in line with Imperial edicts."

Until the last sentence, this is very weak language. There is no evidence of any significant collaboration with the Imperial government, which would certainly appear in a work by a pro-Rebellion historian. Furthermore, collaboration or not is irrelevant to the overall point. If representative governments became collaborators, then it is reasonable to presume it had popular support.

I disagree. A Renaissance of fascism in 1930s Europe cannot be said to be caused by the Nazis or Italian Fascists forcing it on other states, nor can it be called a fully democratic movement. Part of the weakness of this discussion is that whether or not there the process is democratic is irrelevant. In fact we know Palpatine of Naboo was ensconced with emergency war powers which made him essentially a dictator completely in compliance with the legal process and by democratic representation, and he was popularly acclaimed as galactic emperor.

TC Pilot wrote:If not representative, they were exactly as exclusive under the Old Republic. What exactly "the Imperial method" is is not particularly clear, nor can we be certain what "laws and freedoms" have been eliminated. Regardless, the excerpt is fairly clear that a huge majority of worlds seem to have not needed to be reconfigured to accommodate Palpatine's New Order.

We know that Vandron and the ISB worked "Imperial Infallibility" into the legal philosophy.

TC Pilot wrote:I seem to recall the Empire being a wildly popular government compared to the rebellion.

The Emperor was very popular, but many of his ministers and his governments and the policies which were ostensibly theirs were loathed. Its hard to say that there was not some sort of organized and numerous popular discontent with the extensive and organized jubilant protests at the end of ROTJ.

TC Pilot wrote:Only in certain instances. The Core Worlds were generally free of invasive Imperial presence, where the majority of citizens lived.

The majority is not the only thing that matters. By this rationale, most Germans weren't Jews so the Nazis were benign, domestically.

TC Pilot wrote:Inconsiderable minorities or outright traitors. Kashyyyk rebelled. Of course they are stripped of independence.

Kashyyyk rebelled after it was subject to occupation and being stripped of its autonomy. And this was after it had been a wartime ally. And whatever your handwaving, both were important members of the galactic union before the Empire, both politically, industrially, and militarily. This is disregarding sapient rights violations, as both races were enslaved under the pretext of being reclassified as sub-sapient.

If a bad driver crashes his car into a tree, we don't blame the car. The Old Republic was a victim of corruption within the ranks of its government, not in the failure of its own system of government.

I don't like the "Fortune 500" analogy because in the case of TPM, the galaxy is a huge place, whereas in the United States you don't have those same issues.

Stravo wrote:People are being put in death camps,

People are put in internment camps. That doesn't mean those camps looked like Auswitch. Sio Bibble's transmission about oodles of people dying was very likely to be a fraud, especially given how quickly Obi Wan Kenobi, an Esper with potentially galactic range, dismisses it, and for a people who'd been rounded up and seriously brutalised they seemed pretty happy a day or so later.

Jedi representatives have been killed in cold blood and the Jedi themselves hunted down.

You mean republic sailors? They didn't manage to kill the Jedi. Yes. Ones sent in utmost secrecy by the Supereme Chancellor. No one told the Senate about that.


It's also important to note that Palpatine is evil and anything he says to the 'young and naive' queen is suspect. For all we know, a committe of investigation would have the navy and Jedi Order out there kicking ass within hours. If anything, a committee would have sorted the issue out much faster than the senate would have. Five senators and a few expert witnesses, say Jedi, can vote far faster and discuss data more quickly than a senate of thousands.

Five senators and a few expert witnesses, say Jedi, can vote far faster and discuss data more quickly than a senate of thousands.

But within hours though? Pehaps within hours of the committee's formation, but those elements in the Senate friendly o the Trade Federation would have stymied those efforts. Not to mention what might happen if one of the Senators friendly to the TF was actually put on the committee

Darth Fanboy wrote:But within hours though? Pehaps within hours of the committee's formation, but those elements in the Senate friendly o the Trade Federation would have stymied those efforts. Not to mention what might happen if one of the Senators friendly to the TF was actually put on the committee

How do we know that? Oh yes. Palpatine. A man whose entire existance is a lie. They've a senator. That doesn't mean they have mass senate support or influence - indeed, if they did, they wouldn't need to turn to direct action and conspiring with the Sith to protest what they see as unfair laws.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:We know that Vandron and the ISB worked "Imperial Infallibility" into the legal philosophy.

From what I gathered about this "Imperial Infallibility", this seems to have only embedded itself into COMPNOR, which along with the ISB has always been the most totalitarian wing of the Empire.

The Emperor was very popular, but many of his ministers and his governments and the policies which were ostensibly theirs were loathed. Its hard to say that there was not some sort of organized and numerous popular discontent with the extensive and organized jubilant protests at the end of ROTJ.

I think you're exaggerating the celebrations at the end of Ep. VI. Tatooine, Cloud City, and Theed are insignificant, and with a population of many trillions, Coruscant's appearance really is not that impressive. Imperial authority did not really collapse until a year after Endor.

The majority is not the only thing that matters. By this rationale, most Germans weren't Jews so the Nazis were benign, domestically.

The Galactic Empire is not a totalitarian state nor did it engage in systemic mass-murder. The fact remains that invasive government presence was the exception to the rule, just as in virtually any nation-state, be it Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, or the United States.

Kashyyyk rebelled after it was subject to occupation and being stripped of its autonomy. And this was after it had been a wartime ally.

Was this before or after the Wookiees aided and abated Jedi traitors in ROTS and assaulted and murdered unthreatening Imperial military personnel in Dark Lord?

Treason and armed rebellion are never looked upon highly

And whatever your handwaving, both were important members of the galactic union before the Empire, both politically, industrially, and militarily. This is disregarding sapient rights violations, as both races were enslaved under the pretext of being reclassified as sub-sapient.

Nonsense. Dac was so unimportant in the grand galactic scope that the Empire succesfully got away with convincing the galaxy at large Mon Calamari in the Catalog of Intelligent Life in the Galaxy, Revised Edition had not even been discovered until after the rise of the New Order. Certainly, Wookiees have a prominent appearance in galactic society, but no truely great clout culturally, industrially, or militarily. No shipyards, no great industrial sprawls, not even urbanization.

We have at least a corrupt senator who is Quarren and a Mon Calamari Admiral from Dac during the prequels/clone-wars. Then there is that holonet-news article about stolen MC-warship-plans.

Concerning Kashyyyk, why is it said in ROTS, that the republic can't afford to lose "that system"? According to the ROTS:ICS the Wookees are excellent navigators and astromomers, who possess charts and star maps neither the Republic, the Jedi or the CIS have.

NecronLord wrote: How do we know that? Oh yes. Palpatine. A man whose entire existance is a lie. They've a senator. That doesn't mean they have mass senate support or influence - indeed, if they did, they wouldn't need to turn to direct action and conspiring with the Sith to protest what they see as unfair laws.

And I suppose the Trade Federation Senator requesting the formation of a committee in TPM isn't any indication? Or the other Gran Senator immediately coming to the TF Senator's aid? Not to mention that at this point there are other like minded organizations that may support the TF including the Techno Union, Corporate Alliance, and other groups that would join the CIS later. They don't need mass senate support to slow down the investigation, nor did they need to do so indefinitely.

Keep in mind i'm not disputing the idea that a Republic Investigation would have discovered the truth, only the idea that it could be accomplished so quickly. Just because Palpatine says something, that doesn't make it entirely false, he just doesn't deserve as much credibility because he's a Sith Lord in disguise.

If I recall correctly, ROTS gave the impression that the Empire/Republic subjugated Kashyyyk and stripped it of its autonomy just shortly after the execution of Order 66. I thought the Wookies had attempted to revolt alongside the Jedi against the Empire as a result of that, prompting the actions taken by Darth Vader as described in The Dark Lord.

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:If I recall correctly, ROTS gave the impression that the Empire/Republic subjugated Kashyyyk and stripped it of its autonomy just shortly after the execution of Order 66.

I can see where you would get that idea, but the events in Dark Lord show that the Republic/Imperial army left soon after they had concluded their hunt for the escaped Jedi. My guess is that once Yoda turned up on Coruscant there was no practical reason for them to stay there with all of their Jedi targets confirmed as dead or off world.

I thought the Wookies had attempted to revolt alongside the Jedi against the Empire as a result of that, prompting the actions taken by Darth Vader as described in The Dark Lord.

The Wookiees were arming in preparation of this event, but the the Empire attacked the planet before the revolt could take place with hunting for fleeing Jedi as a pretext to the battle in Dark Lord. The Wookiees fought alongside of the Jedi on Kashyyk, knowing the Empire was going to come for them anyway.

Why exactly do all of the Confederates secede anyway? I can't see what they thought they could do, and what protection the CIS would give them that the Republic would not.

FTeik wrote:Concerning Kashyyyk, why is it said in ROTS, that the republic can't afford to lose "that system"? According to the ROTS:ICS the Wookees are excellent navigators and astromomers, who possess charts and star maps neither the Republic, the Jedi or the CIS have.

Strategic location in the then current state of war. The planet and its inhabitants themselves obviously had no other importance whatsoever given its complete lack of any form of influence on the Empire.

Just one little thing I recalled which might be useful in this debate over the popularity of the Empire and the transition.

During the first elections in the new republic, people en masse voted Imperial officials back in power [that is shown in TNR, however much I loathe that book]

Stas Bush wrote: During the first elections in the new republic, people en masse voted Imperial officials back in power [that is shown in TNR, however much I loathe that book]

I think it was said that a lot of those officials were locally elected/selected during the reign of the Empire, whose only crime (in the eyes of Leia at least) was being affiliated with the Empire. It's not like they wanted to bring back the Imperial government, but they did want those local officials that they had picked in the first place IIRC. I could be wrong, I no longer have a copy of New Rebellion to look through to verify.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Keep in mind i'm not disputing the idea that a Republic Investigation would have discovered the truth, only the idea that it could be accomplished so quickly. Just because Palpatine says something, that doesn't make it entirely false, he just doesn't deserve as much credibility because he's a Sith Lord in disguise.

Keep in mind, I didn't say it would respond within hours. Merely that it's conceivable that the committee might have fairly investigated the evidence and got on with it. It's also conceivable that they might have taken so long that Amidala ended up signing the treaty.

I think it was said that a lot of those officials were locally elected/selected during the reign of the Empire

So the Empire allowed local electoral mechanism to run just like they did in the Republic. Most of it's cenrtalization occured on the global level - Galactic Senate, galactic administration. The Empire centralized a loose confederation (Republic) into a more strict federation, but could not create a unitary state (I'd think that's really impossible given the so various system sof government and society on various planets).