StarDestroyer.Net BBS

We've already talked about different factions within the Empire with their own ideologies.

Suppose there was some sort of civil war within the Empire. Perhaps Palpatine and/or Vader is briefly incapcitated, or they are deciding to let something chaotic happen as part of their own dark long-term plans.

Which factions, either ideological- or interest-based, would rise in prominence? We already know about the technocrats of the Tarkin Doctrine- who else would have the political/military clout to be a contender in such a situation?

Sate Pestage and the Emperor's Inner Circle i'd imagine, and possibly one or more Grand Admirals would attempt to assert their authority over the military.

COMPNOR and other intelligence agencies could assume control on some troops and even control factions that are supposed to be controlled by someone else (like Ysanne Isard and the faction of Sate Pestage in the EU).
Even some crazy Emperor's Hand could make his army.

This could, and did, get messy. The Empire is structured in such a way that many branches of government, powerful and influential in their own right, often have overlapping spheres of authority that they must constantly compete with other groups for.

In its most basic form, there are only really three factions in the Empire: meritocrats, aristocrats, and totalitarians.

The meritocrats have a strong presence in the military and Privy Council. To a lesser extent, these were the warlords. They're ambitious, talented, and not yet truely established within the Imperial society. There's no true territorial area they hail from. Tarkin's technocrats are an off-shoot of this group.

The aristocrats are the old guard, the former rulers of the Old Republic. Predominately from the Core, these are the rest of the military, many high positions of industrial authority, like TaggeCo or KDY, as well as the social elite.

The totalitarians are the scumbags of the Empire, really. Predominantly centered within COMPNOR and the ISB, it could only really muster a paramilitary militia of questionable strength and reliability, but is still a potent populist segment of the Empire. The totalitarians made a few inroads into the military, like Grand Admiral Il-Raz, but are generally left out.

In its most basic form, there are only really three factions in the Empire: meritocrats, aristocrats, and totalitarians.

Of these, id have to say the meritocrats would have the advantage.

3 words: Gradn Admiral Thrawn.

While this is typical thrawn-wank on my part, the fact is, he is a tactical genius.


But what i want to know is, what about all the subjigated factions that the empire keeps in check. The CIS worlds for instance. Why did we never see a re-emergance of trade fed battle droids when the empire fell.

Alien-Carrot wrote:But what i want to know is, what about all the subjigated factions that the empire keeps in check. The CIS worlds for instance. Why did we never see a re-emergance of trade fed battle droids when the empire fell.

Because all the rebellious organizations of the CIS were nationalized, from what I understand.

Or absorbed by the Rebel Alliance: according to Wookiepedia, Rebels had at least one modified Providence-class Star Destroyer (the Rebel One) and one Recusant-class light Star Destroyer, and they could have other CIS ships and forces.

General Schatten wrote:

Alien-Carrot wrote:But what i want to know is, what about all the subjigated factions that the empire keeps in check. The CIS worlds for instance. Why did we never see a re-emergance of trade fed battle droids when the empire fell.

Because all the rebellious organizations of the CIS were nationalized, from what I understand.

Not all of them. There were supposedly some seperatist holdouts and resurgances, and the IGBC wasn't nationalised, though it was carefully watched. The CIS battledroids, were of course, largely obsolete. Other battle droids were in use, at that time. Notably, Balmorra's ones, from Dark Empire.

I suspect that a particular strongman from the military would end up being able to forge an alliance between enough meritocrats and aristocrats. The ultimate control over the Empire rests with its military might, but without Palpatine it would have become a significantly derived form.

lord Martiya wrote:they could have other CIS ships and forces.

There was also the Fortressa, a Rebel Lucrehulk-class battleship in Death Star which tried to assult the unfinished DS I. So there's Separatists and Separatist material floating around in this time frame as well.

I believe the CSA also gained some Lucrehulks after the CW, but I don't know which source actually said that.

I always thought that the main conflict was between Tarkin Doctrine fans and New Order totalitarians. But I guess that was just how it was when Palpatine was around. Without him, the New Order doesn't carry as much weight.

Though I can't really see what the NO constitutes that the Tarkin Doctrine isn't a part of. They seem near-identical, with a few differences.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Though I can't really see what the NO constitutes that the Tarkin Doctrine isn't a part of. They seem near-identical, with a few differences.

Massive conventional forces v. superweapons?

The tripartite schema is reasonable, but it's worth pointing out that the old NewsNets portrayed the Imperial Court as a significant wellspring of power in the Empire. They were all dependant on the Emperor's favor, of course, but with it they could build very impressive portfolios; they were seen as the group who ultimately issued orders in the Empire.

The Court is heterogenous, of course. The Ruling Council and the rest of the advisors would be considered parts, but so would moffs and members of the armed forces. I'd argue that at the very least, it represented the confluence of meritocratic and aristocratic elements.

COMPNOR toadies and their like probably had no use for the Court and likely made themselves nuisances.

The schema of organizing the high powered Imps based on their three possible origins is nice, but would they really align like that? I guess to some degree the aristocrats from the Old Republic (are there any examples of individuals or groups from this category?) would like to preserve the status quo with minimal instability. But the meritocrats would certainly be divided several ways. And are there any other ideologies or interest groups that may have a part? I think we're all overlooking the few Dark Acolytes/Adepts who may be unified to create a Sith/Dark Jedi-based interest. All they need is a Jerec, a Sedriss, a Kadann, or a Cronal (maybe not) to do so.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:The schema of organizing the high powered Imps based on their three possible origins is nice, but would they really align like that?

Not at all. The groups are mostly just classifications. Each group has the likely ability to turn on each other, particularly the meritocrats. The "meritocrats" is a group of like-personalities, all ambitious or power-mongering, unless their loyalty overrides their ambition. Aristocrats are bound together by millenia-old tradition, territorial necessity, and possibly even family and marriage. Totalitarians are bound together by ideology.

In reality, the meritocrats and totalitarians didn't survive very long. The meritocrats all killed each other off or broke from each other (Grand Admirals killing each other, warlordism, particularly), and the totalitarians, by being the psychotic scumbags of the Empire, simply did not have the popular support or established legitimacy needed to survive the collapse of Imperial peace and order.

The aristocrats have the advantage of both legitimacy and the strongest power base. The only problem is, their positions and power are tied into their homeworlds, and thus the conditions of their defeat are that much more defined.

Any example of the aristocrats? Now that I think of it, aristocrats don't necessarily mean a noble class. It just means anyone with Old Republic origins, who tend to be traditionalist and pro-status quo in nature. So perhaps the civil service and bureaucrats who survived the transition from Republic to Empire could have counted.

So would Sate Pestage, Ars Dangor, and the rest of the sillyhats qualify? What about families like Tagge and Fel?

Tagge would be an aristocrat, but Fel was a meritocrat - his family were farmers on Corellia, and the Baron title was earned for victory at the Battle of Derra IV.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Any example of the aristocrats? Now that I think of it, aristocrats don't necessarily mean a noble class. It just means anyone with Old Republic origins, who tend to be traditionalist and pro-status quo in nature. So perhaps the civil service and bureaucrats who survived the transition from Republic to Empire could have counted.

No, they weren't just people of Old Republic origins, since everyone was.

They were actual aristocrats. People like the Kuati, Count Dooku, the House of Tagge, Baron Papanoida, House Pelagia, the aristocrats of Vjun, etc. Unsurprisingly, they hold a typically disproportionate amount of power in the Old Republic, one that carried over into the Empire.

The thing is, were there really all that many actual blue-blood aristos in the upper echelons of the Empire? Palpatine's regime seems to have the least trappings of an old-school kingdom that I've ever seen. I know there was Tagge's presence in the ANH, but besides him I really don't recall any aristos is the Ruling/Advisory Council. Other than Prince Xizor, but he surely doesn't count. Maybe you're saying that there were a lot of officers and governors who came from families with a strong tradition of public service since Republican days? Tarkin might have been a technocratic meritocrat in that he was trying to gain Palpatine's favor (so better to overthrow him with), but he did come from a long line of sinister pale politicians, after all.

Maybe they're not in the news so much because it's the meritocrats who are always infighting for power. Aristos stay back and watch things sink in.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Perhaps Palpatine and/or Vader is briefly incapacitated, or they are deciding to let something chaotic happen as part of their own dark long-term plans.

What about the military? In a post-Hoth setting, we have Admiral Piett in command of the Executor and likely a sizable chunk of Death Squadron. While he may be overruled by whichever Grand Admiral seizes opportunity in this scenario, it doesn't seem unlikely that without Palpatine or Vader around the various military commanders might well prefer to stick to their own rather than follow the capricious whims of the political elite on Coruscant. The system is already highly militarized anyways, and I would imagine without a powerful Dark-Side figure to keep them in check rule over the Empire would quickly become a matter of which military figure could amass the most hardware.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Maybe they're not in the news so much because it's the meritocrats who are always infighting for power. Aristos stay back and watch things sink in.

That has quite a bit to do with it. We have little to no information on the actual day-to-day governance of the Empire or its society, or the Imperial Court. Odds are, it isn't going to be the aristocrats risking their lives and reputations earning success or going warlord out on the Rim or at the front lines, so they are not going to come into the story as prominent characters.

We have little to no information on the actual day-to-day governance of the Empire or its society, or the Imperial Court

Actually, we have a good deal of information about Imperial high society thanks to the NewsNets and other WEG supplements.

WEG seemed to be operating under the assumption that the Core world aristocracy--both titled and untitled--played a large role in the governance of the Empire. The novels have tended to place their emphasis on the totalitarian faction as well as the "meritocratic" faction as defined in this thread, but the Core élite have been playing a major role in the Empire from the start.

Consider (in addition to those already named in this thread): Imperial Advisors such as Pradeux and Verpalion, who were important patrons of the arts. Pradeux, indeed, led the Order of the Canted Circle: the most exclusive (and influential) social group in the galaxy. Grand Admiral Tigellinus can rightly be seen as part of their ilk as well.

Generally speaking, Imperial HoloVision and Coruscant Daily Newsfeed (in particular) utilized the aristos as the public face of the Empire. They were certainly the most palatable to the wider galactic audience, given their traditional positions of influence and association with the grander things in the Old Republic.

Of course, it's questionable how influential they really were. I'm not so sure about whether to place paternalists like Dangor and Pestage in the aristocratic faction or not. They certainly cultivate themselves in patrician trappings but their origins as political operatives make them rather parvenu; there's nothing that says that new money can't be cultured.

Titled aristocrats, Court players, and Generationals would constitute the bulk of the aristocratic faction, I'd say. Their very nature means that although they are not united, they are certainly less inclined to eradicate themselves through infighting due to their large networks of influence and extended family ties.

We've seen that many Generationals have defected to the Rebellion. Court players such as Pradeux and his Order of the Canted Circle continue to operate into the New Republic era. Even bluebloods such as Governor Snopps of Corulag survived past the Empire. They seem to have won out.

Of course, it's questionable how influential they really were. I'm not so sure about whether to place paternalists like Dangor and Pestage in the aristocratic faction or not. They certainly cultivate themselves in patrician trappings but their origins as political operatives make them rather parvenu; there's nothing that says that new money can't be cultured.

It's likely that men with whom Palpatine had a long partnership, like Pestage and Greejatus, were raised to aristocratic positions after the rise of the New Order by virtue of the creation of so many high positions around his Imperial Majesty and the Court. Dangor undoubtably was not an aristocrat, although it's clear that the New Order is supported by them: "Who better than the most educated, well-trained, highly civilized élite to lead the lesser beings who know nothing about maintaining culture and organization?"

We've seen that many Generationals have defected to the Rebellion. Court players such as Pradeux and his Order of the Canted Circle continue to operate into the New Republic era. Even bluebloods such as Governor Snopps of Corulag survived past the Empire. They seem to have won out.

Which explains how so many of the Core Worlds fell to the New Republic after the fall of Coruscant. Loyalty to Coruscant, rather than it's owner, so to speak. The New Republic can't rightly move against the aristocrats, by virtue of their power and the fact their fathers and grandfathers ran the Old Republic.

Here's a thought- if the ISB and the Imperial Intelligence were able to become contenders in the internecine succession conflicts following the Emperor's first and second deaths, couldn't the Inquisitorius be a contender? I think they were possibly the most capable of Palpatine's Dark Side organizations, since they had a lot of mundane non-Force users as members as well.

The Emperor's Hands were few and split apart, the Prophets of the Dark Side weren't as interested in galactic dominion, the Dark Side Elite either didn't exist until Palpatine was reborn or were too few in number, and the Royal Guards just basically joined whomever they were loyal to, instead of acting like independent janissaries or praetorians.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:Here's a thought- if the ISB and the Imperial Intelligence were able to become contenders in the internecine succession conflicts following the Emperor's first and second deaths, couldn't the Inquisitorius be a contender? I think they were possibly the most capable of Palpatine's Dark Side organizations, since they had a lot of mundane non-Force users as members as well.

The Emperor's Hands were few and split apart, the Prophets of the Dark Side weren't as interested in galactic dominion, the Dark Side Elite either didn't exist until Palpatine was reborn or were too few in number, and the Royal Guards just basically joined whomever they were loyal to, instead of acting like independent janissaries or praetorians.

The problem with Palpatine's Force organizations is that they had no external authority or legitimacy. It was all derived from Palpatine. Inquisitorious and Prophets of the Dark Side are too small and too disconnected from any political or military power, the Hands were complete unknowns, the Royal Guards presumably would lose all credibility if Palpatine vanished.