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I have heard claims of 9,000 Jedi, but this sounds really, really, really dumbs. Almost as dumb as the 3,000,000 clones figure.

Anybody know where it is said, or how realistic such a figure is?

You're going to have to give us more than that.

What era?
KOTOR?
Clone Wars?
New Republic?
Legacy?

Who are you counting as Jedi?
Knights & above?
Padawans?
Younglings?

Um, lets say Clone War era, and I count Padawan and above.

I myself am familiar with claims that there were only about 10,000 Jedi in the order during the prequels. Wether that is knights and masters or padawans as well is never elaborated on, but thats the figure I recall.

On the face of it, it is pretty ridiculous, but there is no way to estimate how many force users there should be in the galaxy. If the birthrate of sensatives is one per hundred worlds, then we suddenly have a reason for the tiny number of Jedi.

Darth Ruinus wrote:I have heard claims of 9,000 Jedi, but this sounds really, really, really dumbs. Almost as dumb as the 3,000,000 clones figure.

Having Jedi numbering in the thousands is not as unreasonable as one would think. Throughout AOTC it was mentioned that the Jedi were horribly outnumbered in the conflict. As Mace Windu stated "But if they do break away, you must realize that there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

Also see in TPM where a pair of Jedi are a major factor in the derailment of the Trade Federation's plans. While it is illogical for an Army to consist of only 3,000,000 soldiers, having the Jedi so outnumbered makes more sense. It is not like an army expected to take massive casualties. The Jedi are analogous to the FBI, not expendable line infantry.

Adamskywalker007 wrote: The Jedi are analogous to the FBI, not expendable line infantry.

FBI? Hardly, especially since Obi-Wan makes it quite clear to Anakin in AOTC that "investigation wasn't implied in their mandate."

Plus even if they were, this is a galaxy for Chirt's sake. Three million would barely cover a single planet, let alone ten thousand.

Boeing 757 wrote:

Adamskywalker007 wrote: The Jedi are analogous to the FBI, not expendable line infantry.

FBI? Hardly, especially since Obi-Wan makes it quite clear to Anakin in AOTC that "investigation wasn't implied in their mandate."

Plus even if they were, this is a galaxy for Chirt's sake. Three million would barely cover a single planet, let alone ten thousand.

Please. The Jedi in the prequels and EU are always investigating something. And it was Anakin saying that investigation IS implied in their mandate, and Obi-Wan just being stern and trying to teach patience, as he was just as quick to jump into it as Anakin was.

They are more like a conglomeration of the NSA, CIA and FBI than just the FBI.

As far as their numbers go in the prequel era (Clone War), it seems like they imply that the Jedi numbers are low as far as the overall average goes for their history. I think it is somewhere around 10,000 throughout the galaxy.

Who knows how many there were in the KOTOR era or the time right before the Order of Two.... Actually Publius probably knows.
The Legacy Comics Era is probably another small number, in the hundreds, as the Jedi have suffered ANOTHER massacre and extinction event.

Even if Obi-Wan was correct that investigation wasn't in their mandate- he's talking about their mandate - ie. his and Anakins. He's not saying the Jedi don't do investigations, that's ridiculous.

Ya know, I was thinking about this a couple days ago, and it seems that such a small number is actually quite likely due to the policies enforced by the Jedi in the millennium before the prequels. By taking Force sensitive individuals at birth, discouraging or outright forbidding family contact, and prohibiting procreation by Jedi, whatever genetic predisposition (and given the Skywalkers and the EU in general, there must be one) exists for the Force was being bred out of the population and any parents of Force sensitive children had a strong incentive to hide them (likely the only reason Force sensitivity remain even as high as it was).

You're talking about the absolute top-tier of force users with more than 10 years training. What's supposed to be so strange about 10,000 Jedi Knights? It's not like there wasn't a whole slew of other, lesser, force users, even in the Jedi Order.

If Jedi were numerous Han Solo would have heard of them. Since even a skilled pilot who crossed the galaxy never even heard of the Jedi this affirms that Jedi are indeed very rare. They are supposed to be mythical sorcerers who singlehandedly win and lose entire wars after all. Two Jedi and two Sith lords decided the fate of entire galaxy in OT. An army of Jedi although cool in concept does not fit with spirit of OT. We saw this in AOTC when the Jedi army was comically gunned down. Contrast this against the sheer screen presence Obiwan and Luke had. The inverse ninja law requires the number of Jedi be kept low. Otherwise they lose their mojo.

havokeff wrote:

Boeing 757 wrote:

Adamskywalker007 wrote: The Jedi are analogous to the FBI, not expendable line infantry.

FBI? Hardly, especially since Obi-Wan makes it quite clear to Anakin in AOTC that "investigation wasn't implied in their mandate."

Plus even if they were, this is a galaxy for Chirt's sake. Three million would barely cover a single planet, let alone ten thousand.

Please. The Jedi in the prequels and EU are always investigating something.

Noooo way, like really?

C'mon, of course they investigate, and I'm certainaly not going to dispute that this isn't what they do when they obviously do it (You'd have to be half asleep through the film to miss Obi-Wan in the library, Obi-Wan going to Dax's, or even when Yoda commands Anakin to "track this killer down."), but it's also VERY clear that Jedi aren't merely analogous to mere FBI.

They do a LOT, LOT more than just investigate, and Obi-Wan's argument with Anakin just underscores it in the most plainly manner possible. If they were primarily an investigation unit, there wouldn't have been any doubt as to what they should have done. And I'm sure somewhere in the Expanded Universe the Republic has its own official Bureau of Investigation agency, just like they have a separate Republic Intelligence agency. It's not like the Jedi are meant to fill these rolls for the Republic, and there are simply not enough of them to do it anyways.

And it was Anakin saying that investigation IS implied in their mandate, and Obi-Wan just being stern and trying to teach patience, as he was just as quick to jump into it as Anakin was.

Okay, this is correct that they did do just that, but they're still not some kind of FBI-type organization. If they were, Obi-Wan would have been quick on the ball to find out who the killer really was instead of arguing about it.

They are more like a conglomeration of the NSA, CIA and FBI than just the FBI.

That's how I sort of see it (Hey, they do other stuff too, like escorting and military command, right?) , except I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think they really have any sort of official standing within the Republic's bureaucracy. IMO, they have way too much independence in the movies, and I haven't seen any sort of EU or movie evidence stating that the Jedi are part of the Republic's government except as mere courtesy.

Quadlok wrote:Ya know, I was thinking about this a couple days ago, and it seems that such a small number is actually quite likely due to the policies enforced by the Jedi in the millennium before the prequels. By taking Force sensitive individuals at birth, discouraging or outright forbidding family contact, and prohibiting procreation by Jedi, whatever genetic predisposition (and given the Skywalkers and the EU in general, there must be one) exists for the Force was being bred out of the population and any parents of Force sensitive children had a strong incentive to hide them (likely the only reason Force sensitivity remain even as high as it was).

I find this unlikely. Few force users reproduced for over a thousand years, and of those that did, the only major family line we know of is the Skywalkers, who were created by the Sith to be perfect servants. Yet it is never the Jedi's numbers that are in decline until the war-it's their individual strength alone that is decreasing. There's never a mention of the order being smaller than before, just that their powers are increasingly muddled and they are not sufficient for fighting a war.

Sarevok wrote:If Jedi were numerous Han Solo would have heard of them. Since even a skilled pilot who crossed the galaxy never even heard of the Jedi this affirms that Jedi are indeed very rare. .

Wasn't he very young when the Jedi were more numerous? We know that the Emperor did a very good job of suppressing knowledge about the Jedi after the purges, so there's no reason he would learn of them after the Clone Wars ended.

I'm not trying to say that Jedi aren't rare, I just disagree with the way you're proving it.

Han Solo would have been very young during the Jedi purges. And IIRC, his rant aboard the Millennium Falcon in ANH was referring to the Force and not the Jedi. I'm sure tales of the Jedi are abundant throughout the galaxy enough for him to be aware of their existence in one form or another. It's just that I think Han Solo treated such tales as mere fairy tales and myths and that the Force was nothing more than "simple tricks and nonsense".

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:Han Solo would have been very young during the Jedi purges. And IIRC, his rant aboard the Millennium Falcon in ANH was referring to the Force and not the Jedi. I'm sure tales of the Jedi are abundant throughout the galaxy enough for him to be aware of their existence in one form or another. It's just that I think Han Solo treated such tales as mere fairy tales and myths and that the Force was nothing more than "simple tricks and nonsense".

That's my take on it too. Han seemed to have thought that the Jedi were just a farce. He obviously did not believe that the Force was real and that anything that a Jedi did was just slight of hand.

Of course that changes obviously by Return of the Jedi.

Adamskywalker007 wrote: Having Jedi numbering in the thousands is not as unreasonable as one would think. Throughout AOTC it was mentioned that the Jedi were horribly outnumbered in the conflict.

Yes, but in a conflict with a droid army that has quintillions of battle droids (fuck you Karen Traviss) then even having, say, 10 million Jedi, they would still be horribly outnumbered.

10,000 Jedi isn't nearly as retarded as 3 million clones. After all, we know about armies, but there are no real world organisations of superhuman demigods to compare them with. After all, what do the Jedi actually do? Protect the galaxy from the Sith? The past thousand years have been a pretty cushy job for them in that case. Of course, they also take some of the most important jobs in other fields, but it is certainly rare. The trade federation had no idea that the republic would send Jedi, so it cant be that common. It is quite likely the fear of the Jedi is what kept the galaxy stable for so long, rather than their actual actions.

wjs7744
To add to that, the Nemoidians, just by two Jedi being present in TPM, assumed they would not survive. Whether they were talking about the immediate situation or throwing their lot in with Sidious, they BELIEVED they were dead. And they were sitting in the middle of their fleet packed with droids. That has to say something about the prowess, and at the very least the reputation, of the Jedi, no matter how many there are.

and we got to remember that unlike the way the clones are repesented, the Jedi (knights and masters) form only the tip of the icebrerg of the order with padawans and non force sensitive personel also handling at alot of the day to day operations of the order.

and for the official standing of the order, since the Ruusan reformation they're under the justice department of the senate, though for the most part the Jedi govern themselves.

Darth Ruinus wrote:

Adamskywalker007 wrote: Having Jedi numbering in the thousands is not as unreasonable as one would think. Throughout AOTC it was mentioned that the Jedi were horribly outnumbered in the conflict.

Yes, but in a conflict with a droid army that has quintillions of battle droids (fuck you Karen Traviss) then even having, say, 10 million Jedi, they would still be horribly outnumbered.

Sure, if they were the only fighting force to face them. But the Jedi are the generals, spec ops, and diplomats of the GAR, not line infantry. It's the clones that soak up the losses while their commanders sit pretty waving their lightsticks around and such

One of the few times that any close number has been given for the number of Jedi comes from KOTOR II, when Jedi Master Zez Kai-Ell mentions that by the time the Jedi Civil War (the whole conflict from KOTOR I) ended, barely 100 Jedi were left. Five years later, in 3951 BBY, only the following 7 Jedi were left:

Bastilla Shan (shown in K2 to still be alive)
Deesra Luur-Jada (revealed to still live in TEG2TF)
Odd Bnar (trapped on Ossus, nobody aware he still lived)
Atris (possibly)
Revan (status unknown, but did return to the lightside)
Disciple/Mical (a former Jedi, never became an apprentice)
The Exile (status unknown)


also, the following companions of The Exile are sometimes counted as Jedi:

Handmaiden/Brianna (servant of Atris, daughter of a Jedi)
Visas Marr (former Sith, redeemed by the Exile)
Atton Rand (taught by The Exile)
Bao Dur (taught by The Exile)
Mira (taught by The Exile)

The opening crawl of The Phantom Menace categorically states that the Republic is protected by ten thousand Jedi Knights.
Whether 'Knights' includes both Padawans and Masters is anyone's guess. Those Jedi (younglings) who weren't accepted for a padawan apprenticeship under a Knight or Master were IIRC relegated to the Agricultural or Healer Corps.

As for Han Solo's knowledge of the Jedi: the late, great Brian Daley's Han Solo's Revenge makes it clear that he had heard of the Jedi, even knowing of a specific action: the liberation of the planet Llordd (sp?).

Shannon wrote:The opening crawl of The Phantom Menace categorically states that the Republic is protected by ten thousand Jedi Knights.
Whether 'Knights' includes both Padawans and Masters is anyone's guess. Those Jedi (younglings) who weren't accepted for a padawan apprenticeship under a Knight or Master were IIRC relegated to the Agricultural or Healer Corps.

As for Han Solo's knowledge of the Jedi: the late, great Brian Daley's Han Solo's Revenge makes it clear that he had heard of the Jedi, even knowing of a specific action: the liberation of the planet Llordd (sp?).

I think it should be, "Lorrd".

For whatever it is worth, the Episode I Visual Dictionary claims that the Jedi on Coruscant as of The Phantom Menace numbered ten thousand. Since this is the total number given by most other sources, I supposer we can infer that this includes Younglings et cetera training at the Temple, who are not otherwise considered full Jedi.

That makes no sense. It must be 10,000 Jedi Knights and senior; some Younglings washout to become AgriCorps and ExplorCorps servicemen and Padme point-blank says "Anakin is not a Jedi" because he is a Padawan and has not completed his trials.

Personally, I would made there be at least a billion Jedi or so; though I would've had many be pretty weak with their Force abilities and I would've had the whole organization less formalized and centralized. More just knights errant guided by their training and principles in common out righting wrongs.