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After what we now know from ROTS and it's novelization, is it safe to assume that Yoda conducted Luke's training differently than the pre-ROTS Jedi?

Obviously it was the stripped down version, but were there any fundamental changes in Yoda's approach or philosophy that we are aware of?

Is it possible that Yoda didn't change the way he trained Luke, or was incapable of doing so and that is what led to the... "ineptness" of the NJO Jedi.
Or could that possibly be attributed to a very big change in how Luke was trained and Luke's Jedi are a sort of trial and error or Beta test of this new Jedi training.

Well I think a big part of the "new training" stemmed from Luke learning life experiences before coming to Yoda for training, instead of being indoctrinated at an early age. Then when he came to Yoda, he was instructed as Yoda had done for students in years past, probably with a hyper-crashscourse in everything a normal Padawan would have been expected to cover. I don't remember the exact timeframe for how Long Luke was supposed to have been on Dagobah.

Obviously, the short crash course was not as heavy on indoctrination as a standard Youngling/Padawan education, and it generally seems to have left actual Jedi ideology deliberately vague. We can also see that Yoda did not display the unreasonable Old Jedi phobia for attachment, at least not on-screen. And the confrontation with the Dark Side in the Dagobah cave is also a new addition, unless I am mistaken.

It reminded me of the stripped-down teaching from The Karate Kid. I think it was pretty clear, especially from the "there is another" and such comments he makes, that he's basically just hoping Luke can manage to hold his shit together and stab some badguys with little to no finesse or ideology to back him up.

His phobia for attachment is mitigated by the lack of time he has left. He does tell Luke to leave his friends, despite them being in trouble, and to keep his focus on training. That's not quite a "Jedi can't ever love" statement, but it's probably the closest Yoda would let himself go.

This theme of Luke's life experiences meaning something in his training is contradicted by Yoda who insists he must "Unlearn what you have learned" in order to open himself up to Yoda's teachings. I think his life experiences helped him in his quest to save his father but as to becoming a better Jedi its pretty clear that if Yoda had Luke on Dagobah since he was 5 yo and trained him for 15 years he would have been damn near unstoppable considering that a 1 year crash course put him nearly on the same level as Vader.

Stravo wrote:This theme of Luke's life experiences meaning something in his training is contradicted by Yoda who insists he must "Unlearn what you have learned" in order to open himself up to Yoda's teachings. I think his life experiences helped him in his quest to save his father but as to becoming a better Jedi its pretty clear that if Yoda had Luke on Dagobah since he was 5 yo and trained him for 15 years he would have been damn near unstoppable considering that a 1 year crash course put him nearly on the same level as Vader.

And with old-style Jedi teachings, he would also have been a brainwashed drone.

A theory: Ben said in one of the Thrawn books that Luke was supposed to be "not the last of the old Jedi, but the first of the new" or somesuch. Can this mean that they have seen the flaws of the old Order and decided to implement a revision?

Darth Hoth wrote:

Stravo wrote:This theme of Luke's life experiences meaning something in his training is contradicted by Yoda who insists he must "Unlearn what you have learned" in order to open himself up to Yoda's teachings. I think his life experiences helped him in his quest to save his father but as to becoming a better Jedi its pretty clear that if Yoda had Luke on Dagobah since he was 5 yo and trained him for 15 years he would have been damn near unstoppable considering that a 1 year crash course put him nearly on the same level as Vader.

And with old-style Jedi teachings, he would also have been a brainwashed drone.

A theory: Ben said in one of the Thrawn books that Luke was supposed to be "not the last of the old Jedi, but the first of the new" or somesuch. Can this mean that they have seen the flaws of the old Order and decided to implement a revision?

1. Read the OP:

After what we now know from ROTS and it's novelization, is it safe to assume that Yoda conducted Luke's training differently than the pre-ROTS Jedi?

In RoTS the novel, Obi Wan wanted to train Luke almost from day one, and Yoda told him to settle down and that their ways failed against the Sith.

Darth Hoth wrote:

Stravo wrote:This theme of Luke's life experiences meaning something in his training is contradicted by Yoda who insists he must "Unlearn what you have learned" in order to open himself up to Yoda's teachings. I think his life experiences helped him in his quest to save his father but as to becoming a better Jedi its pretty clear that if Yoda had Luke on Dagobah since he was 5 yo and trained him for 15 years he would have been damn near unstoppable considering that a 1 year crash course put him nearly on the same level as Vader.

And with old-style Jedi teachings, he would also have been a brainwashed drone.

A theory: Ben said in one of the Thrawn books that Luke was supposed to be "not the last of the old Jedi, but the first of the new" or somesuch. Can this mean that they have seen the flaws of the old Order and decided to implement a revision?

I think the Jedi teachings gets a bit of a undeserved knock since it is Anakin, the one who was trained in an unorthodox manner, that turns to the dark side and goes all Sith on everyone and not Obi Wan or any of the other traditionally trained Jedi.

Luke went into the confrontation with the Emperor and Vader virtually unarmed in a philosophical/dogmatic sense. This is made even more clearer in the novelization where Luke is just lost as to how to counter the Emperor's taunting and twisting on Jedi teachings. A lifetime spent with Yoda on Dagobah would have made him prepared for all the taunts and tricks the Emperor and Vader had for him to goad him to the darkside in particular when Yoda has just one goal in his training - make him immune to the lures of the darkside and make him a Sith killing machine.

Remember that in Yoda's duel with Sidious (according to the RotS novelisation) Yoda reflects that the Jedi have been doing it wrong for a thousand years. I would assume that would mean that Luke's new training regimen would have less focus on Jedi superiority and platitudes and more on practical training, as we can see through the obstacle courses on Dagobah. And Luke's (well, according to Jedi Academy) 'learning through doing' approach, I would assume that was passed on by Master Yoda's advice/teachings as much as it was out of a nessecity due to a lack of Jedi.

Darth Hoth wrote:And the confrontation with the Dark Side in the Dagobah cave is also a new addition, unless I am mistaken.

Could be a substitute for some or all of the Jedi Trials. Same with Yoda in RoTJ telling Luke that he must confront Vader. "Only then, a Jedi will you be."

Stravo wrote:
I think the Jedi teachings gets a bit of a undeserved knock since it is Anakin, the one who was trained in an unorthodox manner, that turns to the dark side and goes all Sith on everyone and not Obi Wan or any of the other traditionally trained Jedi.

True, but Yoda specifically mentions how the Sith Order had changed and adapted while the Jedi Order became stagnant, which led to their manipulation by Sidious.

Luke went into the confrontation with the Emperor and Vader virtually unarmed in a philosophical/dogmatic sense. This is made even more clearer in the novelization where Luke is just lost as to how to counter the Emperor's taunting and twisting on Jedi teachings.

However, in the end, Luke did make the right decisions. Even when faced with the offer of all the power in the throne room and the Rebels facing an almost certain defeat, Luke Skywalker threw down his lightsaber. I would say that Luke was armed better than other Jedi who had been tempted. He was not classically trained, and he had tasted anger and hate and rejected them on his own accord.

A lifetime spent with Yoda on Dagobah would have made him prepared for all the taunts and tricks the Emperor and Vader had for him to goad him to the darkside in particular when Yoda has just one goal in his training - make him immune to the lures of the darkside and make him a Sith killing machine.

All of the younglings and padawans supposedly recieve that type of training, and it still failed for a number of Jedi during the Clone Wars.

Stravo wrote:I think the Jedi teachings gets a bit of a undeserved knock since it is Anakin, the one who was trained in an unorthodox manner, that turns to the dark side and goes all Sith on everyone and not Obi Wan or any of the other traditionally trained Jedi.

I think we can blame the Jedi teachings for Count Dooku and the various Dark Jedi that sided with him during the Clone Wars.

A lifetime spent with Yoda on Dagobah would have made him prepared for all the taunts and tricks the Emperor and Vader had for him to goad him to the darkside in particular when Yoda has just one goal in his training - make him immune to the lures of the darkside and make him a Sith killing machine.

A lifetime spent with Yoda might've made Luke more vulnerable to the lures of the Dark Side, as Luke wouldn't have experienced love, friendship, or any reason to be loyal to anything other than Yoda and the Jedi Code-- after all, who can say what would've happened if things went differently?

In the EU novel "A courtship of Princess Leia" didn't Luke pick up a load of Jedi holograms/teaching things?
If followed wouldn't Luke have a faily good theoretical baisis for jedi training but not much practical experiance which would allow for his learn by doing argument?

JGregory32 wrote:In the EU novel "A courtship of Princess Leia" didn't Luke pick up a load of Jedi holograms/teaching things?
If followed wouldn't Luke have a faily good theoretical baisis for jedi training but not much practical experiance which would allow for his learn by doing argument?

Yes he did he picked up a copy of the Jedi archive from the Chunathor. Considering it was more then 400 years old at the time I doubt its information could be anything near to complete or total. The box wasn't very big either.

Ghost Rider wrote:1. Read the OP:

After what we now know from ROTS and it's novelization, is it safe to assume that Yoda conducted Luke's training differently than the pre-ROTS Jedi?

In RoTS the novel, Obi Wan wanted to train Luke almost from day one, and Yoda told him to settle down and that their ways failed against the Sith.

I am sorry, then; I do not own the book in question.

Stravo wrote:I think the Jedi teachings gets a bit of a undeserved knock since it is Anakin, the one who was trained in an unorthodox manner, that turns to the dark side and goes all Sith on everyone and not Obi Wan or any of the other traditionally trained Jedi.

I think the case can be made that proportionally more Jedi fell under the old Order than the New. If I recall correctly, the KotOR games has a Lucasian Jedi training code in effect, and in those wars enough Jedi fell to almost vipe out the true Order entirely.

EDIT: Provided there is no great schism or somesuch in Legacy; I do not read those books, so I cannot know.

Darth Hoth wrote:I think the case can be made that proportionally more Jedi fell under the old Order than the New. If I recall correctly, the KotOR games has a Lucasian Jedi training code in effect, and in those wars enough Jedi fell to almost vipe out the true Order entirely.

EDIT: Provided there is no great schism or somesuch in Legacy; I do not read those books, so I cannot know.

But you have to keep in mind that most of those Jedi feel to the Dark Side when Revan went deliberately out of his way trying to turn Jedi to his cause. I think that it is G0-T0 who says something along the lines of 'the war was clearly going to be won by the side that had the most Jedi', so instead of Jedi doubting themselves and turning of their own accord (as we saw in the Clone Wars), Revan and his followers were actively trying to turn the Jedi to their cause.

Side thought/question: Aside from Luke, or having his help, are there any other documented cases of a Jedi or Force user actually resisting Palpatine's will, i.e. not falling to the Dark Side?

Perhaps, by training Luke the way Yoda did, by essentially leaving his own will intact, unlike how they tried to break down and bend Anakin to the Jedi ways, and just focusing on the martial skills, it left Luke with the tools he needed to resist Palpatine.

havokeff wrote:Side thought/question: Aside from Luke, or having his help, are there any other documented cases of a Jedi or Force user actually resisting Palpatine's will, i.e. not falling to the Dark Side?

Perhaps, by training Luke the way Yoda did, by essentially leaving his own will intact, unlike how they tried to break down and bend Anakin to the Jedi ways, and just focusing on the martial skills, it left Luke with the tools he needed to resist Palpatine.

Leia would be the one example I can think of off the top of my head. And yes, that would seem to support such a theory. Of course, there may be others that I do not remember at this time.

IIRC, didn't Leia have Luke's help resisting Palpatine in DE? (II?)

havokeff wrote:Side thought/question: Aside from Luke, or having his help, are there any other documented cases of a Jedi or Force user actually resisting Palpatine's will, i.e. not falling to the Dark Side?

Doesn't Mara Jade qualify? She was trained by Palpatine, worked for him for years but never fell into the whole dark side/lack of emotional control side of things.

BTW In KOTOR 1 they had survived the war of Exur Kun(sp?), also refered to as the Jedi Civil war, not fifty years before. Conversations with Jolee Bindo seem to hint that before that war the Jedi were a little more loose in their adherance to the whole "I must deny all feelings becasue they might affect my state of mind." claptrap.

JGregory32 wrote:

havokeff wrote:Side thought/question: Aside from Luke, or having his help, are there any other documented cases of a Jedi or Force user actually resisting Palpatine's will, i.e. not falling to the Dark Side?

Doesn't Mara Jade qualify? She was trained by Palpatine, worked for him for years but never fell into the whole dark side/lack of emotional control side of things.

Not even a little bit. Luke spent whole books helping her get over Palpatine's influence... and he was DEAD. She is the poster child for the opposite of what I was looking for.

BTW In KOTOR 1 they had survived the war of Exur Kun(sp?), also refered to as the Jedi Civil war, not fifty years before. Conversations with Jolee Bindo seem to hint that before that war the Jedi were a little more loose in their adherance to the whole "I must deny all feelings becasue they might affect my state of mind." claptrap.

Well, it was the Sith of Bane's Order that Yoda was referring to, and the way they had changed, while the Jedi of the same era had become stagnant. What happened 4000 years before doesn't have all that much relevance.

havokeff wrote:IIRC, didn't Leia have Luke's help resisting Palpatine in DE? (II?)

No, quite the contrary; she not only resisted Palpatine on her own, she helped redeem Luke as well after he had finally fallen. (The end scenes of the original Dark Empire aboard the Eclipse.)