StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I'm dragging this question over from the Wiki, since there's more traffic and discussion over here...

What are general opinions about the ability of Jedi to affect objects protected by force fields. Are there canon incidents of this happening? It seems that force fields have frustrated Jedi on multiple occasions in the prequel movies:

• The shielded Droideka's on the TradeFed flagship in TPM drove off Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon said the situation was a stand-off, since the droids' blasts couldn't get through the Jedi's defense, but the reflected blaster shots didn't penetrated the droids' shields. Why not just use the Force to disable these droids, as they did many other battle droids in the movie? The shield seems to be the only significant difference.
• Count Dooku used some kind of force field to restrain Obi-Wan Kenobi on Geonosis.
• A ray shield trapped Anakin and Obi-Wan in ROTS. Using the Force to telekinetically disable the field emitter would seem to be the obvious solution, but it occurs to neither Jedi. Are they just stupid, or is there a reason they can't use the Force that way?

--Ted C 15:53, 4 March 2008 (EST)

I can't think of any events in the movies (or in the novels, offhand) where telekinesis was used through shielding. However, telepathy seems to work through shielding:

• Probably Luke to Leia at the end of ESB, as the Falcon likely still had shields active
• Vader could sense the Force with Luke even though he was piloting a shielded X-wing
• Corran Horn was able to get impressions of X-wing pilots he was flying against in combat in I, Jedi
• Battle Meditation wouldn't ever work in space combat if it couldn't affect pilots through shields

-- Mad 13:28, 6 March 2008 (EST)

So we seem to have anecdotal evidence that shields and force fields interfere with the telekinetic abilities of Jedi, but not their telepathic abilities.

Any further incidents to clear this up either way?

I think in one of the books Luke damaged a ship internally with the Force through its shields.

I think it depends ultimately on where the tk force originates from relative to the user.

If its more "line of sight" like a beam weapon (or like force lightening) I suppose it might be blocked by certain kinds of shields (Remember that SW shields aren't an "block all kinds of attacks with a single type of shield" type, they require multiple kinds to block specific effects. On the other hand, if the point of origin were much further away from the user, it could very well be outside the field and still work.

This is probalby one of those circumstances where you'd find alot of evidence going one way or another, depending on where you look. I would point out that there are other possibilities for certain cases.

For example, in ROTS with the "ray shield" surrounding them, we do know from various sources that shields do interact with matter and can damage it. Given "equal and opposite reaction" it may be that the Jedi could not guarantee a stable enough posture inside the shield to prevent himself from exerting enough force to affect the emittors.

Other possibilities can include (but are not limited to)

- Some Jedi may simply not be able to affect things "hidden" - they may require some form of line of sight on the target.

- a matter of precision, control, or concentration - We've seen Qui-Gon use fine control before, but OTOH we never saw Anakin in the movies do it (in the other sources could be a different story.) Anakin has always struck me with his wild and impetuous nature as being the "lots of power but little control" type. It may even be cirumstantial - Anakin was hardly in a "calm" frame of mind when he did it, he may simply not have been able to summon the needed control to do what he needed.

And before you say "but that doesn't explain Qui-gon and TPM", lets remember that the droidekas were rapid firing a bunch of blaster bolts at the Jedi, who were rather busy defending. Most Jedi can't use their lightsaber blocking and other abilities at the same time. (Qui-Gon had to turn from the door to face the droidekas, and they were basically firing by that point IIRC.)

The only other possible argument is the "forcefield" thing from AOTC, but I believe that had an explanation somewhere. Note though that we don't KNOW what the forcefield was or did - for all we know it inflicted alot of damage on a Jedi and forced them to heal themselves, or it forced them into a state of pain they were required to use the Force to stave off, or some other sort of effect that required constant force usage to remain conscious/viable/etc. Hell, maybe it screwed up or paralyzed the nervous system.

And, of course, ,there's also the small matter that Obi-Wan's arms and legs were impeded. Its also possible he might not be able to do anything unless he can make hand gestures (at least that point)

I would point out though that the "Universeal Energy Cage" might be a better example of htat. I'll have to find and post the excerpts about it if I can be bothered to find them.

We know that in SOTP Luke was rather confident he could cripple a shielded pirate battlecruiser telekinetically so either the most experienced Jedi around at the time was wrong or shields don't ALWAYS block their TK.

It could be as simple as a matter of concentration and knowledge.

Look at Maul, when he was fighting Obi Wan and Qui Gon, he hurled something at the door to open it instead of using the Force to actually activate the door's mechanism, which we see Obi Wan do several times (in AOTC and ROTS). However Obi-Wan was able to focus all his attention on the doors, while, obviously, Maul was a little distracted. Same with Luke in the Rancor pit. The button for the door was in plain sight and could be activated by the pressure of a thrown skull, but Luke didn't TK even that simple mechanism and he was certainly under duress.

Really, any time we see a Jedi or Sith use complicated TK, there isn't much else going on. Like I said above, the doors Obi Wan opens and Palpatine unlocking Luke's cuffs in ROTJ.

And seriously, if Jedi could use complicated TK under stressful situations, they would be turning off each others lightsabers all the time.

As for knowledge, do we know that Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon knew the inner workings of a droidieka? Or where the switch or circuit was to activate/deactivate the shields? Another example could be Obi-Wan on the Death Star. Why didn't he just use TK when he got close to the tractor beam power station, instead of risking discovery and falling. He probably just didn't know what he was looking for until he got there.

As for the ray shield that caught Anakin Obi-Wan and Palpatine... didn't they want to be captured as it was the quickest way to Grievious?

And I'd imagine that a shield emitter capable of containing tough targets like Jedi would be fairly resistant to damage as well. Like, sturdy and all that shit, so any kinetic impact won't rip the emitter right off its moorings. I mean, if instead of Jedi, Obi Wan and Anakin were a pair of charging elephants and Grievous was still like "ACTIVATE RAY SHIELDS!"

Shroom Man 777 wrote:And I'd imagine that a shield emitter capable of containing tough targets like Jedi would be fairly resistant to damage as well. Like, sturdy and all that shit, so any kinetic impact won't rip the emitter right off its moorings. I mean, if instead of Jedi, Obi Wan and Anakin were a pair of charging elephants and Grievous was still like "ACTIVATE RAY SHIELDS!"

We know that Anakin has the telekinetic strength to rip chunks of material off of walls (or will, in ESB), and the electronics of a field emitter shouldn't be that tough, and it's not like Anakin and Obi-Wan had any other pressing problems to distract them just then. They had time to stand around and discuss their predicament before the droids showed up.

Which leaves us with two possibilities: they can't use TK to drop the force field, or for some reason they don't want to.

There is another option with the Ray shields on the Invisible Hand. That is that the shield was controlled from a control panel they could not see hence the need for R2 to come and hack the shields off for them.

You can't TK something if you A don't know where it is and B have no idea what said button on unseen panel does. Sure they could rip the emmiter out of the wall but they have no way of know where that is either.

As for the plan to use the situation to capture Grevious, that appeared to have been come up with on the way to the bridge.

Well, to add to the idea, Darth Maul, Qui Gon and Obi Won were all stopped and forced to wait while the Naboo shield emitters performed their synchronized timing events.

Obi Won was actually stopped twice, and strangely didn't even think of trying to cut through the extremely obvious and large shield emitters, even though his Master was in mortal danger and got killed.

In ROTS, neither Obi Won or Anakin even though of cutting through the floor to escape the ray shields that held them captive and got them captured by Grievous.

Given the additional previous examples listed by Ted C, it seems that when confronted with force field technology, Sith and Jedi seem either too stupid or just plain unable to circumvent such technology.

Bubble Boy wrote:Well, to add to the idea, Darth Maul, Qui Gon and Obi Won were all stopped and forced to wait while the Naboo shield emitters performed their synchronized timing events.

Obi Won was actually stopped twice, and strangely didn't even think of trying to cut through the extremely obvious and large shield emitters, even though his Master was in mortal danger and got killed.

IIRC, those shields served a purpose and disrupting their function would have been bad for all three of them.

In ROTS, neither Obi Won or Anakin even though of cutting through the floor to escape the ray shields that held them captive and got them captured by Grievous.

There is a deleted scene where they do just that. It may still be in the novelization. Again, IIRC, they let them selves get captured in this way, because it was the quickest way to Grievous.

havokeff wrote:

Bubble Boy wrote:Well, to add to the idea, Darth Maul, Qui Gon and Obi Won were all stopped and forced to wait while the Naboo shield emitters performed their synchronized timing events.

Obi Won was actually stopped twice, and strangely didn't even think of trying to cut through the extremely obvious and large shield emitters, even though his Master was in mortal danger and got killed.

IIRC, those shields served a purpose and disrupting their function would have been bad for all three of them.

What critical purpose would that be? Presumeably this proposed 'critical purpose' is so vital that Obi Won realized the necessity of letting his Master die instead of cutting through the last shield emitter.

In ROTS, neither Obi Won or Anakin even though of cutting through the floor to escape the ray shields that held them captive and got them captured by Grievous.

There is a deleted scene where they do just that. It may still be in the novelization. Again, IIRC, they let them selves get captured in this way, because it was the quickest way to Grievous.

The movie overrides the novel, and it's quite clear they didn't intent on being captured. Unless their whole bickering scene about "We're better than this!" was just an act for...who?

Bubble Boy wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Bubble Boy wrote:Well, to add to the idea, Darth Maul, Qui Gon and Obi Won were all stopped and forced to wait while the Naboo shield emitters performed their synchronized timing events.

Obi Won was actually stopped twice, and strangely didn't even think of trying to cut through the extremely obvious and large shield emitters, even though his Master was in mortal danger and got killed.

IIRC, those shields served a purpose and disrupting their function would have been bad for all three of them.

What critical purpose would that be? Presumeably this proposed 'critical purpose' is so vital that Obi Won realized the necessity of letting his Master die instead of cutting through the last shield emitter.

Inside the Worlds of Star Wars: Episode I wrote:Laser doors lock into position in response to potentially lethal power outputs that occur intermittently during plasma activation process

So basically, it is a safety precaution that activates when needed. Again, if Obi-Wan recklessly started slicing through the shield emitters, he could have ended up killing all of them. Not to mention that the shields go all the way from the floor to the ceiling, which is about 36 feet high, give or take.

The number of doors is based on a tradition in deference of a myth.

In ROTS, neither Obi Won or Anakin even though of cutting through the floor to escape the ray shields that held them captive and got them captured by Grievous.

There is a deleted scene where they do just that. It may still be in the novelization. Again, IIRC, they let them selves get captured in this way, because it was the quickest way to Grievous.

The movie overrides the novel, and it's quite clear they didn't intent on being captured. Unless their whole bickering scene about "We're better than this!" was just an act for...who?

I have to concede this, as while the novel does have Obi-Wan saying that there is no doubt ray shielding in the ceiling and floors, they did stumble into the trap, and as you said, and we all know, the movies definitely override all else. It was also actually Palpatine.'s idea to go peacefully to "negotiate" with Grievous in the novel.

If I recall correctly, there is a passage in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction that appears to imply that Force perceptions are dulled by force fields. I shall look through the novel for the quote, unless someone else beats me to it.

Darth Hoth wrote:If I recall correctly, there is a passage in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction that appears to imply that Force perceptions are dulled by force fields. I shall look through the novel for the quote, unless someone else beats me to it.

That makes more sense than the lack of line of sight being an issue, because

AotC Novel wrote:Obi-Wan reached for his lightsabre thinking to shear through the portal, but he changed his mind, preferring subtlety. He closed his eyes and sent his strength through his outstretched hand and into the lock, manipulating the mechanism easily. Then, one hand going to his lightsabre, he tried the door again, and it slid open.

So, obviously LoS isn't needed, unless you want to argue that the lock in question was transparent.

Battle droids didn't get back up either when blasted down, which tends to suggest that they usually have such components disabled in the attack (Mike made the point in his TPM page).

However, a force field is not quite the same thing as a (relatively) thin layer of metal covering - shields are often designed to block some tractor beam/force field weapon attacks (Happens once in The Crystal STar IIRC) It probably would take greater effort to penetrate a forcefield, unless the effect can be transmitted "around" the shield/field/whatever somehow.

wjs7744 wrote:

Darth Hoth wrote:If I recall correctly, there is a passage in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction that appears to imply that Force perceptions are dulled by force fields. I shall look through the novel for the quote, unless someone else beats me to it.

That makes more sense than the lack of line of sight being an issue, because

AotC novel wrote:Obi-Wan reached for his lightsabre thinking to shear through the portal, but he changed his mind, preferring subtlety. He closed his eyes and sent his strength through his outstretched hand and into the lock, manipulating the mechanism easily. Then, one hand going to his lightsabre, he tried the door again, and it slid open.

So, obviously LoS isn't needed, unless you want to argue that the lock in question was transparent.

I don't think it is so much like actual LOS, but more like how Nightcrawler from the X-Men needs to know where he is teleporting to or else he could materialize in a wall. The Jedi may be able to do it, but if they don't know where to start looking they would just be fumbling around knocking over vases and clocks off walls.
As for your example of the lock mechanism, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where that is on a standard door, and Obi-Wan still had the luxury of looking at the door he was trying to open as well as the door jam that contained it. He also wasn't under direct duress, just constarined by time.

True, but knowing where a lock is, and knowing how the interior mechanism works with sufficient accuracy to be able to open it are two different things.

wjs7744 wrote:True, but knowing where a lock is, and knowing how the interior mechanism works with sufficient accuracy to be able to open it are two different things.

A lock is a lock. Once you know how it works it isn't much of a mystery. While I'm sure there isn't a galactic standard for them in SW, I am also sure Obi-Wan has seen and opened his fair share of them in his adventures. Finding an activation switch for a shield generator in a room you have never been in, or on droid you have no idea where it is on, while being fired on or surrounded by the enemy is quite a bit of a difference then doing something you have done before.

Is there some reason why noone here has mentioned Anakin Solo being able to walk through an active forcefield by using the Force at age 9 ?

havokeff wrote:

wjs7744 wrote:True, but knowing where a lock is, and knowing how the interior mechanism works with sufficient accuracy to be able to open it are two different things.

A lock is a lock. Once you know how it works it isn't much of a mystery. While I'm sure there isn't a galactic standard for them in SW, I am also sure Obi-Wan has seen and opened his fair share of them in his adventures. Finding an activation switch for a shield generator in a room you have never been in, or on droid you have no idea where it is on, while being fired on or surrounded by the enemy is quite a bit of a difference then doing something you have done before.

On a possibly large but still limited number of locks out of a gazillion possible ways that lock is set up. Doy you know how many types of mechanical locks there are in the real world alone? Leave alone the possible variations doable with SW technology?

Is there some reason why noone here has mentioned Anakin Solo being able to walk through an active forcefield by using the Force at age 9 ?

I my case the reason is likely because I either flat out didn't remember it or did my level best to actively forget about the Solo brats altogether to begin with.

Darth Hoth wrote:If I recall correctly, there is a passage in Darth Bane: Path of Destruction that appears to imply that Force perceptions are dulled by force fields. I shall look through the novel for the quote, unless someone else beats me to it.

Ah, here we have it:

Path of Destruction p. 84 wrote: [E]ven through the containment field Des had been able to sense his commanding presence.

Batman wrote:On a possibly large but still limited number of locks out of a gazillion possible ways that lock is set up. Doy you know how many types of mechanical locks there are in the real world alone? Leave alone the possible variations doable with SW technology?

Yes, and Obi Wan had never been on Kamino, in fact never even heard of the place, and he was able to Force Pick their door lock on the first try. Just because there are a gazillion possibilities for lock mechanisms, doesn't mean there actually are a gazillion different locks.

Regardless of how many different lock mechanisms there are, Obi-Wan still has to sense inside the lock to know which type it is before he can pick it, which was my actual point. With the forcefields in AotC and RotS, he couldn't sense the mechanism of the forcefield to disable it.

havokeff wrote:

Batman wrote:On a possibly large but still limited number of locks out of a gazillion possible ways that lock is set up. Doy you know how many types of mechanical locks there are in the real world alone? Leave alone the possible variations doable with SW technology?

Yes, and Obi Wan had never been on Kamino, in fact never even heard of the place, and he was able to Force Pick their door lock on the first try. Just because there are a gazillion possibilities for lock mechanisms, doesn't mean there actually are a gazillion different locks.

Which means they used a lock type he was familiar with, nothing more. Your point was?

There is one particular incident with Darth Vader. A Bounty Hunter tried to kill him, and when Vader tried to gut him with his lightsaber the bounty hunter's personal shield stood up against it. But he used the force to destroy or disable the small shield generator the man was carrying, which then resulted the mans death few seconds later. It was from one of the comic books I have at home.