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Someone went through the work to cut the Endor fleet battle together into one 8-minute clip. Figure it could be useful for some analysis, and aside from that, it's just cool to see the whole space battle in one go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

Intercut or not, watching this I was struck by just how bluntly obvious it is that the hyperspace jump from Sullust to Endor was a matter of seconds.

-AHMAD

BountyHunterSAx wrote:Intercut or not, watching this I was struck by just how bluntly obvious it is that the hyperspace jump from Sullust to Endor was a matter of seconds.

Seconds?

Since when?

I'm not saying it took several hours, but three whole scenes played out between the fleet entering and exiting Hyperspace--you have to factor in at least enough time it takes for the ground force on Endor to get in the bunker, do their stuff, and get caught. Much longer than practically instantaneous.

You can time it from the point the the Fleet jumps and when Leia says "The fleet will be here any second." It is certainly not seconds, but it isn't very damn long.

Curiously the Imperial Shield Generator view screen shows the fleet approaching while it is in hyperspace, which Leia appears to look at. That or it is sowing the Imperial Fleet, which isn't supposed to be there. Either one should have at least gotten a "whaitaminute..." out of Leia, because either A) The Empire learned how to track ships in hyperspace or B)The Rebel fleet is fucked.

'twas hyperbole on my part, I didn't mean literally seconds. It's just that after watching Sullust to Endor or browsing stvsw.net, seeing the two scenes cut together has a sort of polarizing effect.

-AHMAD

havokeff wrote:You can time it from the point the the Fleet jumps and when Leia says "The fleet will be here any second." It is certainly not seconds, but it isn't very damn long.

Curiously the Imperial Shield Generator view screen shows the fleet approaching while it is in hyperspace, which Leia appears to look at. That or it is sowing the Imperial Fleet, which isn't supposed to be there. Either one should have at least gotten a "whaitaminute..." out of Leia, because either A) The Empire learned how to track ships in hyperspace or B)The Rebel fleet is fucked.

The Rebels saw the Imperial fleet when they flew down to Endor - remember, they flew right over the Executor? The Rebels weren't anticipating having to fight the Imperial ships because the shield would be down on the Death Star - they could fight a holding action while the starfighters flew into the Death Star to blow it up, and then they could retreat.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:

BountyHunterSAx wrote:Intercut or not, watching this I was struck by just how bluntly obvious it is that the hyperspace jump from Sullust to Endor was a matter of seconds.

Seconds?

Since when?

I'm not saying it took several hours, but three whole scenes played out between the fleet entering and exiting Hyperspace--you have to factor in at least enough time it takes for the ground force on Endor to get in the bunker, do their stuff, and get caught. Much longer than practically instantaneous.

Not seconds, certainly, but definitely not days.

Lando's face is still baby smoooooth.

SancheztheWhaler wrote:

havokeff wrote:You can time it from the point the the Fleet jumps and when Leia says "The fleet will be here any second." It is certainly not seconds, but it isn't very damn long.

Curiously the Imperial Shield Generator view screen shows the fleet approaching while it is in hyperspace, which Leia appears to look at. That or it is sowing the Imperial Fleet, which isn't supposed to be there. Either one should have at least gotten a "whaitaminute..." out of Leia, because either A) The Empire learned how to track ships in hyperspace or B)The Rebel fleet is fucked.

The Rebels saw the Imperial fleet when they flew down to Endor - remember, they flew right over the Executor? The Rebels weren't anticipating having to fight the Imperial ships because the shield would be down on the Death Star - they could fight a holding action while the starfighters flew into the Death Star to blow it up, and then they could retreat.

What? Really? Then why was Akbar so surprised by the presence of the fleet? Remember.. "ITS A TRAP!" Not... "Hey look there is the fleet we were expecting to fight."

I guess there were simply a lot more ships than they expected, since obviously they didn't expect there would be no perimeter guard whatsoever. And anyway, Ackbar was responding to the shield, not the fleet.

wjs7744 wrote:I guess there were simply a lot more ships than they expected, since obviously they didn't expect there would be no perimeter guard whatsoever. And anyway, Ackbar was responding to the shield, not the fleet.

Have you even seen ROTJ?

"Admiral! We have enemy ships in sector 47!" "It's a trap!"

The shield being up is a possible outcome because they don't know how long it is going to take the team on Endor to disable it. However when they see the FLEET that, you know, they DIDN'T see when they came out of hyperspace and spent about a minute (exactly actually) flying towards the Death Star without ANY enemy contact, that sorta tipped them off that it was a trap.

I seem to recall one of the leaders commenting that the Imperial Fleet was deployed in a "vain attempt to engage us, leaving the Death Star virtually unprotected".

And people should follow a train of logic.

1. Mon Mothma is not by any means a tactical leader and she was the one who commented about the fleet. And she was right, the portion guarding the Death Star was a miniscule fleet.

2. Han Solo did not jump out of his seat upon seeing the Executor and the Communications ship. Which means either he's a fucking moron or he believed the Rebel Fleet could handle both the Sector Fleet and Death Squadron.

3. Admiral Ackbar's plan was the shield was going to be DOWN when they assaulted the Death Star. In fact this surprised Lando as well.

The novel clearly indicates the portion that the Rebellion was taken by surprise was the jamming and the shield, not the Imperial Fleet. They expected something, but they did not expect the shield and they certainly did not expect the Death Star to be operational.

They were HOPING the shield would be down. Clearly some of the Rebels were concerned about Han's ability to get the job done, as Nien Nunb's comments to Lando illustrate.

And obviously the Rebel fleet was planing for some engagement, other wise the plan wouldn't have included a perimeter being set up to protect the fighter attack. And as you pointed out GR, Han didn't shit his fucking pants at the sight of the Executor and it's escorts.

What they weren't expecting and what elicited Ackbar's line, was the fact that not only was there a much larger force than anticipated, but that they were PREPARED for them. It was the fact that the Empire knew they were coming, jamming them so there were no readings on the shield, coming up from behind them, having no element of surprise, that surprised Lando and Ackbar.

Uh... did I just say, basically, the same thing you did?

You could also consider that the 'it's a trap' statement is in response not to the size of the Imperial fleet, but it's position. Perhaps Han Solo didn't react in fear to the Executer because he knew it was right in the approach vector of the Alliance fleet. Once they jumped out they would pound the crap out of it before all it's fighters are launched and it's battle stations are fully manned. With the Imperial fleet showing up in their flank ready to engage that was not going to be the case.



EDIT: In other words I agree with Havokeff.

I'm struck by just how ferocious and frantic the combat seems in that old film compared to RotS - ILM was truly the masters of model effects back in their day.

Aquatain wrote:I'm struck by just how ferocious and frantic the combat seems in that old film compared to RotS - ILM was truly the masters of model effects back in their day.

I wonder if that has to do with focusing on the models for shorter periods of time, since their movements were limited by the computer controlled arm? That, and it was probably a hell of a lot harder to get that battle scene together than the ROTS one.

havokeff wrote:

Aquatain wrote:I'm struck by just how ferocious and frantic the combat seems in that old film compared to RotS - ILM was truly the masters of model effects back in their day.

I wonder if that has to do with focusing on the models for shorter periods of time, since their movements were limited by the computer controlled arm? That, and it was probably a hell of a lot harder to get that battle scene together than the ROTS one.

That and the speed of the movements - but also very importantly the actors in the cockpits are shown to be engaged in what they are doing, no smart ass remarks or anything, they do really seem like people worries about dying.

Aquatain wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Aquatain wrote:I'm struck by just how ferocious and frantic the combat seems in that old film compared to RotS - ILM was truly the masters of model effects back in their day.

I wonder if that has to do with focusing on the models for shorter periods of time, since their movements were limited by the computer controlled arm? That, and it was probably a hell of a lot harder to get that battle scene together than the ROTS one.

That and the speed of the movements - but also very importantly the actors in the cockpits are shown to be engaged in what they are doing, no smart ass remarks or anything, they do really seem like people worries about dying.

Well to be fair on that point, the only people we see in ROTS are the two most bad assed Jedi in the galaxy, who are CONSTANTLY in death defying situations, and droids. So fearing for their lives isn't really that high on the list of what you are going to see.

havokeff wrote:

Aquatain wrote:

havokeff wrote: I wonder if that has to do with focusing on the models for shorter periods of time, since their movements were limited by the computer controlled arm? That, and it was probably a hell of a lot harder to get that battle scene together than the ROTS one.

That and the speed of the movements - but also very importantly the actors in the cockpits are shown to be engaged in what they are doing, no smart ass remarks or anything, they do really seem like people worries about dying.

Well to be fair on that point, the only people we see in ROTS are the two most bad assed Jedi in the galaxy, who are CONSTANTLY in death defying situations, and droids. So fearing for their lives isn't really that high on the list of what you are going to see.

True, but it wouldn't hat hurt if both Anakin and Obi-wan had seem a little more "awake", Just because they are badassed Jedi doesn't mean they are omniscient and in a big melee battle like the one in ROTS anything can happen, Though apparently the biggest threat came from..droids..in balls...fired as missiles...

Anyway the point was that having pictures of average Joe Starfighter struggling to stay alive surely helps making big space battles more intense and frantic.

Aquatain wrote:True, but it wouldn't hat hurt if both Anakin and Obi-wan had seem a little more "awake", Just because they are badassed Jedi doesn't mean they are omniscient and in a big melee battle like the one in ROTS anything can happen, Though apparently the biggest threat came from..droids..in balls...fired as missiles...

Anyway the point was that having pictures of average Joe Starfighter struggling to stay alive surely helps making big space battles more intense and frantic.

Not omniscient, but letting the Force flow through them. If we saw them as regular pilots, like the two clones we see getting whacked, we would be bitching that they weren't calm enough or that a Jedi SHOULD act almost omniscient, at least situationally.

Keep in mind though, that this is also a battle in the BEGINNING of the MIDDLE of the saga. It's emotional level isn't supposed to be quite as high as the FINAL battle for all the marbles in ROTJ. The Jedi are at the peak of their power and that is what we see, while the Alliance is in a desperate struggle for survival and they KNOW they are on the brink of annihilation.

havokeff
Yes, of course I've seen RotJ before.

I wasn't sure of the exact sequence, so I watched the film again, and although you're right, Lando's report on the shield comes immediately before that, so I guess he's probably reacting to both the jamming and the fleet.

After all, this is obviously supposed to be a lightning quick action, so sitting around for ten minutes while Han finishes getting the shield down wasn't part of the plan.

So, basically, I reckon that Ackbar's "It's a trap!" is in reaction to the shield, jamming, and the enemy fleet being too big and in the wrong place. You know, the whole trap.

havokeff wrote:

Aquatain wrote:True, but it wouldn't hat hurt if both Anakin and Obi-wan had seem a little more "awake", Just because they are badassed Jedi doesn't mean they are omniscient and in a big melee battle like the one in ROTS anything can happen, Though apparently the biggest threat came from..droids..in balls...fired as missiles...

Anyway the point was that having pictures of average Joe Starfighter struggling to stay alive surely helps making big space battles more intense and frantic.

Not omniscient, but letting the Force flow through them. If we saw them as regular pilots, like the two clones we see getting whacked, we would be bitching that they weren't calm enough or that a Jedi SHOULD act almost omniscient, at least situationally.

Keep in mind though, that this is also a battle in the BEGINNING of the MIDDLE of the saga. It's emotional level isn't supposed to be quite as high as the FINAL battle for all the marbles in ROTJ. The Jedi are at the peak of their power and that is what we see, while the Alliance is in a desperate struggle for survival and they KNOW they are on the brink of annihilation.

Still i think Lucas would have done better portraying the Jedi in some sort of heightened state of attention instead of smugness, at least it would make a more exiting film to watch.

The shots from the interior of Anakin and obi-wan spacecraft seem to slow down the overall excitement of the combat-scenes in ROTS, well at least i think so.

Aquatain wrote:I'm struck by just how ferocious and frantic the combat seems in that old film compared to RotS - ILM was truly the masters of model effects back in their day.

I think the big difference between ROTJ and ROTS is that in ROTJ they could only practically put in so many ships at once, so they had to give you something cool in the foreground to look at (Wedge runs down an Interceptor, then maneuver kills his buddy coming up from the rear), to make up for the emptiness in the background. In ROTS they where like 'fill that scene up bitch!', and put more on quantity than quality. Just my opinion.

Aquatain wrote:Still i think Lucas would have done better portraying the Jedi in some sort of heightened state of attention instead of smugness, at least it would make a more exiting film to watch.

The shots from the interior of Anakin and obi-wan spacecraft seem to slow down the overall excitement of the combat-scenes in ROTS, well at least i think so.

I agree with you, on the pace of the scene, but along with my other points, also remember that in the context of the story, a big problem with the Jedi of this time was smugness, as well as arrogance and over confidence. Yoda admonishes Mace and Obi-Wan on this point in AOTC. Anakin, along with being the pinnacle of Jedi power, is also the pinnacle of these traits. Obi-Wan gets pulled along for the ride.