Official and Canon

[The Dude]

This fellow, Nathan Butler, maintains an almost ludicrously comprehensive SW continuity document (over 800 pages!).

Most interesting is his "Levels of Officiality" discussion, which supposedly is based on information from a Lucasfilm Licensing insider.

His site is here: http://www.starwarz.com/timeline/home.html

His discussion of canonicity/officiality is here:

LEVELS OF OFFICIALITY

So let’s check some of the big questions . . . Emperor Palpatine had a son with three eyes. Or did he? Han and Leia were married one year after the Battle of Endor. Or was it four? Luke Skywalker blew up the first Death Star. Or was it Rookie One? These questions and their answers pose some of the most confusing conundrums in Star Wars media. The reason for the contradictions and confusion is simple: profit from licensing. The solution? Well . . . there is one. Unfortunately, it’s not very well known, since labeling things automatically as apocryphal and such would be bad for sales. But it does exist. So, just what is this magical ladder of “how real things are?” Grab a Snickers. You’re not going anywhere for a while. From the horse’s mouth, thanks to a contact who wishes to remain anonymous, here’s the lowdown.

Okay, first of all, you need to recognize just what the situation is for stories like Star Wars that appear in several different media.

When sagas are made that are in various media, but have begun with a film or a television series, things can get complicated. They become even more complicated when people other than the creators of the films or series get involved in making other stories in books, comics, video games, etc. Confusion arises as to what is really a part of the overall story and what is not. This means that the items have to be divided up, and rules must be applied for what is "real." Sagas like Star Wars, which have such an incredible amount of material available, must be especially picky, and tend to use specific names for specific "levels" of how "real" things are.

Sometimes, the creators have enough control over spin-off products that the distinction is easy. Take Babylon 5, for instance. The B5 creator, J. Michael Straczynski, kept enough control over the items allowed to bear the Babylon 5 name, that he has decided that all of the comics and all of the novels are just as "real" or "official" as any episodes of the Babylon 5 television series. He simply declared that any inconsistencies in the stories are to be written-off as being mistakes from the standpoint of history.

Other times, the creators sell off their rights to their series, like in the case of Stargate, and you end up with a “real” storyline by the people authorized to continue the story, such as Stargate SG-1, and the materials sanctioned by the original creators (who no longer own the rights to the story), such as the Stargate novels by McCay, which become Apocryphal even though they were authorized by the original creators and form a coherent storyline on their own.

Needless to say, this can get very, very confusing.

In the case of Star Wars, though, George Lucas has never taken a major active hand in any of the licensed Star Wars novels, comics, and so on, except in the case of a certain death in Vector Prime, which he personally allowed. Instead, he has only taken control of his actual films, and even then he has deemed several video productions he had a hand in (to an extent), Droids, Ewoks, and the two Ewok films, to not be a part of his vision, and thus not a part of his timeline.

So, the situation in 1977 was that the only Star Wars item on the field was the Star Wars motion picture, which would be re-released later as Star Wars: Episode IV--"A New Hope." As time went on, though, the popularity of the saga grew incredibly. The public kept asking for more and more Star Wars stories. Lucas decided to let his company, Lucasfilm Ltd., allow items to be created under its license. These were not meant to be part of the "story according to Lucas" or even to all tie-in together. They were simply for the public to get another helping of Star Wars adventure.

By the time 1991 came around, there were already a lot of Star Wars items on the market, to say the least. It was at this point that Lucasfilm called into being a new plan. The plan was to allow for an actual official continuation of the Star Wars saga, at least from the company's point of view (not Lucas' own point of view). This plan spawned the Bantam/Del Rey/Berkely/Dark Horse/etc. set of interconnected stories that were dubbed the Official Continuity. As time went on, certain items that were not a part of this Official Continuity were "pulled in" by Lucasfilm, even as late as things like the Marvel Comics series of the 1970s and early 1980s being made definitively Official in 2001. The same went for old Star Wars comic strips, reprinted into Officiality as Classic Star Wars. Other items, such as the old Han Solo Adventures and Lando Calrissian Adventures were also deemed Official, to make the Official Continuity more rich.

In 1997, Lucas released the Star Wars Trilogy: Special Edition, which included revised versions of A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. When this happened, Lucas deemed the Special Editions to be his definitive vision, pushing the original versions down immediately below the SE's when it comes to officiality.

Then, after the release of The Phantom Menace in 1999, Lucas revised the film with two previously deleted scenes for the special DVD release in 2001, bumping the original film down just like the Special Editions had done to the original trilogy in 1997.

Well, with all of these things being added and subtracted and otherwise jumbled around, people had no clue what was or was not a part of the "real" Star Wars saga. It was during the release of all of these different stories and such that Lucasfilm created its continuity department and began drawing lines as to what goes where.

The conclusion was to divide Star Wars stories (both licensed and unlicensed) into categories:

· 1st Level Canon
· 2nd Level Canon
· 3rd Level Canon
· 4th Level Canon
· Official
· Apocrypha
· Fan Fiction

The main thing to remember as you look at this classification system is that if lower levels contradict higher levels, the higher levels "win." Contradictions between items in the same level are considered mistakes on the authors' parts or mistakes on the parts of whatever historian is telling us this story from "a long time ago."

Canon is what is definitely part of the saga. Much like how in religion, Canon is the religion's major holy text, you can look at this as the "sacred" part of Star Wars. This is the stuff that supercedes all else, and only Lucas (or Lucasfilm in the case of anything in 3rd or 4th Level Canon) can deem parts of it untrue. This level is divided into four sub-levels.

The first of these sub-levels, the level that nothing can contradict, is known as 1st Level Canon. The only things this includes are:

· Star Wars: Episode I--"The Phantom Menace" DVD release
· Star Wars: Episode II—“Attack of the Clones” DVD release
· The forthcoming Star Wars: Episode III
· Star Wars: Episode IV--"A New Hope" Special Edition (movie only)
· Star Wars: Episode V--"The Empire Strikes Back" Special Edition (movie only)
· Star Wars: Episode VI--"Return of the Jedi" Special Edition (movie only)

The second of these sub-levels is 2nd Level Canon. This level includes the scripts to the Special Editions and TPM, along with the original release versions of TPM, AOTC, ANH, ESB, ROTJ. This level is overpowered by 1st Level Canon only. Thus, since in the Special Edition of ANH, Greedo shoots first, but in the original version, he does not, the 1st Level Canon item, the Special Edition, "wins." Greedo shot first. In the case of TPM, the introduction to the Podrace does take longer.

The third of these sub-levels is 3rd Level Canon. This level includes the scripts to the original versions of ANH, ESB, and ROTJ, along with the novelizations of the TPM, AOTC, ANH, ESB, and ROTJ films. (For those wondering why the ANH novelization is not 1st Level Canon, since it credits George Lucas himself as author: Lucas didn't write it. It was ghost-written by Alan Dean Foster.) This level can only be overpowered by 1st and 2nd Level Canon. Thus even though the ESB novelization says Yoda is blue, he is still green, because that is what 1st and 2nd Level Canon tell us. Some items of the novelizations have been ordered out of existence by Lucasfilm. Hobbie's death in the ESB novelization, for instance, has been deemed "apocrypha" (and written off as just him getting badly injured), allowing Stackpole to use the character in later novels. Their reasoning for doing this was because in 1st and 2nd Level Canon, Hobbie isn't seen dying, nor does Veers' AT-AT get run into by a snowspeeder.

Moving back to the sub-levels of Canon, the fourth of the sub-levels is 4th Level Canon. This level includes the radio dramatizations of ANH, ESB, and ROTJ. This level can only be overpowered by 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Level Canon. So, just about any of the dialogue in the radio dramas is overpowered already, except for the items that we never see in any other version of the story.

(Just as a little digression here: It is rumored that when A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi are released on DVD, they will be in an even more advanced form than the Special Editions. This new format is rumored to be known as the Trilogy Archive Restoration and would end up taking the 1st Level Canon reins and essentially bump the current 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th, and 4th into a new 5th level of Canon. More on this as it develops.)

Now, before I go on, it is important to note that the specific names for these levels are often not used, or they are used in different ways. In Steve Sansweet’s Star Wars Encyclopedia, for instance, the term Canon is used to cover the four levels mentioned above, while the next level down, instead of being referred to as “Official” is referred to as “Quasi-Canon.” This is just a difference in nomenclature, not in meaning. The same goes for the common usage in Star Wars magazines, like Gamer, where the phrase “Canon” is used to refer to both Canon and Official materials. This is in line with the idea of “Canon” and “Quasi-Canon” being a broadly defined “Canon.” In any event, however we go about naming these levels, it is the structure of the levels and what they mean that is of utmost importance, not what we choose to call those levels. We could just as easily give each level a letter, A, B, C, D, and so on, yet the levels would mean the same thing, only be named differently. Moving on . . .

The next level "down" after 4th Level Canon is known as Official. It is very important to understand that Canon and Official are not the same thing when it comes to Star Wars. In some sagas, like Babylon 5, they are, but in Star Wars, they are not. This level includes anything created for the "official continuation" of the Star Wars saga. It generally falls under the Bantam/Berkley/Dark Horse/LucasArts/etc. contract. Some items are reprinted or "ordered" into the Official Continuity by Lucasfilm, and thus are also Official. There are also some items produced by these companies that are deemed Apocryphal (not Official) by Lucasfilm as well. For instance, the Classic Star Wars: Devilworlds comics, while printed by Dark Horse, are not Official. When it comes to video games, a lot of weeding-out has taken place, such that very, very few remain Official. This level can be overpowered by any of the four sections of Canon. You also need to understand that if you look at Lucas’ vision of Star Wars, NONE of the Official Continuity takes place or even exists. So, for those of you who ask time and again about Thrawn appearing in the Prequels: the reason you won't see him is that the character is non-Canonical (merely Official). There is a huge difference.

Before we step beyond the Official Continuity into the realm of the various alternate timelines for the Star Wars universe, it is appropriate to take this moment to comment on what I refer to as “Lucasfilm decrees.” Sometimes, when there are contradictions between Canon and Official, or Official and Official, Lucasfilm steps in and issues a decision that resolves or explains away the conflict. There are three examples of this that I think illustrate this well.

· First, we have the aforementioned case of Derek “Hobbie” Klivian. In 3rd Level Canon, the ESB novelization, Hobbie was listed as having died during the Battle of Hoth. Further materials, however, necessitated his survival. Galaxy Guide 3: The Empire Strikes Back, for instance, published two years before the Official Continuity came into existence, had a short story called Running the Gauntlet, in which he was alive, escaping Hoth. There was no ruling on the issue at that time, but when Michael Stackpole used West End Games sources to write the Rogue Squadron novels and comics, including Hobbie, Lucasfilm faced a contradiction that needed to be resolved. Their simple statement was that Hobbie survived, and the ESB novelization’s suggestion was incorrect. That was all that was necessary to bring things “into alignment,” so to speak. This was a “Lucasfilm decree.”

· Second, we have a case of Lucasfilm trying to cover its own mess. Before the release of TPM, Lucasfilm had authorized materials (the Tales of the Jedi comics, the Jedi Academy Trilogy, and so on), which gave a history to the Dark Lords of the Sith. When TPM came around, Lucas created his own backstory for the Sith, taking place two millennia later and happening very differently. To keep from having to toss out all of those Official stories in light of new Canon, Lucasfilm wrote it off as two different orders of the Dark Lords of the Sith, with the latter perhaps deriving its name from the former. This was not set down in print until the Essential Chronology.

· Lastly, we have a the case of the Neimoidians and the Duros, who have been declared as the same species. In the years between ANH and TPM, Lucasfilm had determined that the gray alien spacers in ANH were “Duros,” and the Official materials had continued taking that stance. When TPM was released, the Neimoidians looked similar, but not exactly the same, as the Duros. This was all well and good until Lucas decided that the aliens in ANH were the same species as the Neimoidians. As a result, instead of trashing or fouling up all of the vast library of Classic Trilogy era stories featuring the Duros, LFL inserted a single, small mention—just a couple of sentences—into the Nar Shaddaa entry in Dark Horse’s Dark Empire Handbook, in which the reintegration of the Duros-offshoot Neimoidian society into the larger Duros society is mentioned. With a simple addition of sentences, Lucasfilm executed Lucas’ decision without so much as batting an eye over the fact that this gives new meaning and resonance to the events of Balance Point.

In essence, I suppose the message of these examples is not to give up in the face of continuity glitches and contradictions in the Star Wars materials. If it’s Official or above, chances are that LFL has already dealt with the problem and ironed out the glitches, at least by decree, if not in writing.

Back to the officiality ladder, the next level "down" after Official is known as Apocrypha. This level includes everything that is licensed by Lucasfilm, but does not fall into Canon or Official. This includes all kinds of items, from Rebel Assault to the Trioculus Saga to scratch-and-sniff books, along with many new materials being produced with the “Infinities” insignia. There are a few very important things to remember about this level.

· Just because these items are not Official, that does not mean that they cannot be related to each other. For instance, the Rebel Assault and Rebel Assault II: The Hidden Empire games are Apocryphal, and thus not part of the Official Timeline, but they do combine to form the Apocryphal story of the Rebel Assault Timeline. In that sense, Apocryphal stories are not "alone," only separate from the mainstream story.

· The other very important thing to remember is that if an item from an Apocryphal story is mentioned in the Official Continuity, that does not make the Apocryphal story Official. All it does is make that item Official, but only in terms of what the Official materials say. For instance, the Official materials mention Trioculus, from the Trioculus Saga. That does not mean that the Official Continuity now contains all of the Trioculus Saga Timeline’s stories about the character. It only means that the Official Continuity has its own version of Trioculus in it, in its own twisted fashion. It is much like an alternate reality version of a person. Saying that having Trioculus mentioned in the Official materials means that the events surrounding Trioculus in the Trioculus Saga Timeline are Official would be like saying that if the Nathan Butler of an alternate universe were to break his arm, I must have broken my arm in this reality too. That's simply not the case.

· Sometimes, materials are printed by the licensed publishers that are never meant to fit in with the Official Continuity. They aren’t “cast out,” but simply were never within it to begin with. Examples include Devilworlds, several Star Wars Tales stories, and the Infinities series.

You can find these Apocryphal Timelines in the Apocrypha Supplement.

The final level "down" is Fan Fiction (or FanFic). This is the name for all of the materials created by Star Wars fans, but not licensed by Lucasfilm. If you've ever written a Star Wars story, it was FanFic. Since these stories and their timelines are not sanctioned by Lucasfilm, their creators have great choice in what materials they choose to include. Just remember that nothing here has any bearing on the Star Wars materials at large. It is purely fan-made, for-fun stuff. Examples would include Troops, Prelude to Hope and the Scourge of the Nevoota Bee trilogy.

You can find these fan-generated timelines in the Fan Fiction Supplement.

So, you see, there are rules governing what is and is not "real" in Star Wars. It just depends on what level you are talking about. For most people, "real" Star Wars is the Official Continuity. For Lucas, it is 1st Level Canon. As Obi-Wan Kenobi might say, it all depends greatly on our own point of view. Whatever our preferences are, though, it does not change the facts of what is and is not a part of each level of officiality. That’s just how it is.

Put simply, these are the rules, and it is not up to us to question them, only understand them.

P.S. A special audio clip with an alternative way to visualize the Levels of Officiality can be found at the SWT-G’s website, www.starwarz.com/timeline, and a transcript of those files can be found in the Appendices file. The topic is also a frequent issue of discussion on ChronoRadio, and will be covered in extensive detail in the first ChronoRadio: Special Edition.

Discuss.

[Darth Servo]

You actually expect anyone to read all that?

[Enforcer Talen]

I read it. makes me wonder if he has a complete timeline with sources, too.

[spongyblue]

Levels of Officiality sounds like a word Dubya made up

[Darth Yoshi]

Dammit, that was too long for me to read. Did he really make 800 pages?

[Ingersoll]

I think Darkstar is on the guy's radio show.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Levels of Officiality sounds like a word Dubya made up

It's a real word.

[paladin]

too many words make head hurt!!! paladin not happy when head hurt.

[nightmare]

Apparently it confirms what the majority here already thought, including me. I would like to hear more about what is considered part of what canonical level though, for example, are game storylines apocrypha? Is WEG apocrypha? Is WOTC?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

No (to a point), no, and no.

[Crown]

I actually read it all, it made sense and it's pretty much what we have all been saying anyway...

[nightmare]

No (to a point), no, and no.

Er.. do you mean they are official instead of apocrypha? I'd like to know for certain if you confirm my opinion of it or not. Gathered from all that I have seen so far, they would count as official. Apocrypha seem to be stuff that are SW but doesn't count in the continuity, like the Infinties.

[Ghost Rider]

Infinites and Game mechanics are apocrypha.

Game stories have been deemed official...and supported by the EU.

[nightmare]

Infinites and Game mechanics are apocrypha.

Game stories have been deemed official...and supported by the EU.

Thank you, Mr Ghost Rider aka defender of the innocent / joker

*notices that editing seem to be disabled again..

[Mad]

I disagree with his placement of games as apocrophia that is not official. Sansweet has already said the games are official, but the game mechanics/gameplay balancing is not. The storyline is official, though it can be overridden.

A lone starfighter in X-Wing destroying the Death Star is overriden by the movie showing Luke doing it with help from others.

The exact actions of the player that causes Kyle Katarn to kill every stormtrooper on an Imperial base before getting the Death Star plans is not official, though the fact that he did sneak through a base and aquired the plans is.

As Sansweet said, some sources are "foggier" than others, but they're still official. The games are much "foggier" than more concrete sources (and in some cases, like Rebel Assault, "decidedly abstract") , but that's no excuse to simply throw them out without even considering them.

[Lord Edam]

/waves

Youtold me to come here, so here I am.

as you know I've questioned what would be layers two, three and four here. Obviously the original films would be lower than the SE films because GL changed them on purpose - infact, I'd venture as far as to say the original films should be entirely decanonised. If there was nothing actually removed between the two versions, only changed or added, this shouldn't be a problem.

But what I really want to question is the "scripts > novellisation > radio dramas".

Earlier you told me to go listen to chronoradioSE, which I've now got, but it's over 1 hour long, and the bloke doesn't have a particularly nice voice to listen to, so since you're obviously familiar with it anyway you can answer a direct question.

Does ChronoradioSE (or elsewhere) contain a direct quote of or an offiicial statement from an LFL employee stating this stratification of canon, or does it merely use similar logic to the stuff you used over in the lightsabre thread?

(Specifically, novellisations are based on the script so must be below the script, and radio plays are based on the script and novellisation so must be below both)

I've checked the timeline & appendices quickly, but could see on quote, and there are no easy to find transcripts of the ChronoradioSE on the website, so please provide quotes or exact links to demonstrate this stratification is more than just fan opinion

[The Dude]

Does ChronoradioSE (or elsewhere) contain a direct quote of or an offiicial statement from an LFL employee stating this stratification of canon, or does it merely use similar logic to the stuff you used over in the lightsabre thread?

Neither - it describes unofficial statements from an LFL employee regarding the company's internal continuity policy.

[Lord Edam]

Does ChronoradioSE (or elsewhere) contain a direct quote of or an offiicial statement from an LFL employee stating this stratification of canon, or does it merely use similar logic to the stuff you used over in the lightsabre thread?

Neither - it describes unofficial statements from an LFL employee regarding the company's internal continuity policy.

I like that word. "unofficial". So, if it means anything, why not turn it into an "official statement"?

I really thought there would be something there back when you were telling me where to go. Now I see there is zero official support for this segregation.

[The Dude]

I like that word. "unofficial". So, if it means anything, why not turn it into an "official statement"?

I really thought there would be something there back when you were telling me where to go. Now I see there is zero official support for this segregation.

I like how you ignore the "internal continuity policy" part in favour of pretending that "unofficial statement" = "not actually LFL's policy". Do you know what false dilemmas and appeals to ignorance are, Edam? More importantly, do you understand why they should not be used?

I also like how you continue to evade the question of why, even if such a policy did not exist, another author's novelization should be considered as authoritative as George Lucas' script.

[Lord Edam]

I like how you ignore the "internal continuity policy" part in favour of pretending that "unofficial statement" = "not actually LFL's policy".

Let me put it more bluntly - if we were to begin debating canon/official now from a clean slate and you tried providing that as proof it would be immediately written off as an appeal to authority (specifically argument from hearsay) It can't be verified. It has never been repeated. Lucasfilm have had ample opportunity to make this known, but it's hidden away in the middle of some low-quality fan production where they have to hide it behind the "unofficial" tag.

I also like how you continue to evade the question of why, even if such a policy did not exist, another author's novelization should be considered as authoritative as George Lucas' script.

Because the novellisation has been signed off as canon by LFL. GL (or someone he's appointed) has made very sure that the novellisation is faithful to GL's story, otherwise it wouldn't be the official novellisation.

As anyone who has read the novellisation and script would know, generally neither is less accurate than the other when compared to the only absolute canon, and in some cases the novellisation will be closer to the film than the script is.


LFL have had plenty of opportunity to set the novellisations (and radio plays) apart from the scripts but continually fail to do so. In every case we have them all lumped together as "canon" in no specific order, beyond "only the film is the ultimate canon".

Why impose an artificial hierarchy? Why not accept all three sources are of equal footing, and use the one that is closest to the ultimate canon in cases where we can't use all of them?

You have said the novellisation is based on the script, and that is why it must be below the script. Whilst this is generally true, it would be better to say the novellisation is based on Lucas' story. Obviously the only fully fleshed out version available prior to the film's release is the script, but the authors use a lot more than just the script - they get detailed explanation of the story from the man himself, and work closely with the entire film crew (infact, the novellisation and film are made concurrently), so the novellisation ends up reflecting Lucas' final story, the ultimate canon, far better than the script (which will get changed during shooting) possibly can.

Let's take a possible example to demonstrate this...

The script says they are electron beams - that is all the script ever calls them. Yet, the novellisation(written in close conjunction with Lucas and the film crew) mostly calls them laser fields. Inside the worlds of The Phantom Menace (again written in close conjunction with the people who worked on the film) calls them laser beams.

By your reasoning, the novellisation's author chose to re-write Lucas' story for no reason at all - having them being lasers or electrons makes no difference to the story in the book. Similarly, the authors of Inside the Worlds of TPM chose to ignore what Lucas wanted the fields to be in favour of the laser lie - even though it makes no difference to their book.

Alternatively, it could be that Lucas himself (or one of the other senior members of the film crew) changed them from electron rays to lasers after the script was written, and this change is reflected in the novellisation and high-official sources. This makes the novellisation closer to Lucas' story than the script - not a problem if they are all of similar authority, but a major problem if you want to make one higher than the other always.

(note - this is a possible example. It might be wrong, but then again it might not. I'm sure if we tried hard enough we could find a more specific, easily proven example, but that would mean reading all the scripts and novellisations again, which would obviously delay the continuation of the discussion)

[The Dude]

Let me put it more bluntly - if we were to begin debating canon/official now from a clean slate and you tried providing that as proof it would be immediately written off as an appeal to authority (specifically argument from hearsay) It can't be verified. It has never been repeated. Lucasfilm have had ample opportunity to make this known, but it's hidden away in the middle of some low-quality fan production where they have to hide it behind the "unofficial" tag.

Of course it's hearsay... luckily, we are not in court - and the hearsay evidence which supports my position is preferable to the, well, nothing that supports yours.

Because the novellisation has been signed off as canon by LFL. GL (or someone he's appointed) has made very sure that the novellisation is faithful to GL's story, otherwise it wouldn't be the official novellisation.

The novelization may well be faithful to GL's story. The script is GL's story.

As anyone who has read the novellisation and script would know, generally neither is less accurate than the other when compared to the only absolute canon, and in some cases the novellisation will be closer to the film than the script is.

You mean like blue Yoda? You mean like the death of Hobbie, which was overridden by the EU??? You wouldn't happen to have any actual evidence to back up these claims, would you? Hell, even a single example of a novelization being right where a script is wrong would be a start.

LFL have had plenty of opportunity to set the novellisations (and radio plays) apart from the scripts but continually fail to do so. In every case we have them all lumped together as "canon" in no specific order, beyond "only the film is the ultimate canon".
Why impose an artificial hierarchy? Why not accept all three sources are of equal footing, and use the one that is closest to the ultimate canon in cases where we can't use all of them?

Why should anyone accept your golden mean/appeal to ignorance/burden of proof fallacy combo, in place of evidence?

You have said the novellisation is based on the script, and that is why it must be below the script.

Quote, please, oh master of straw.

<snip 5 paragraphs describing a fairytale scenario in which the script is magically written in stone the very instant production begins>

Wherever did you get the idiotic notion that the script is static throughout film production? Screenplays are rewritten continuously throughout, right up to the final print - likely weeks or months after the novel has been submitted to the publisher. GL's script is simply the most authoritative written version of the film, and that is why both LFL and the fan community consider it higher canon than the novelization.

[Lord Edam]

Of course it's hearsay... luckily, we are not in court - and the hearsay evidence which supports my position is preferable to the, well, nothing that supports yours.

You are still basing your ideas on fallacial reasoning. Mine is a common sense suggestion that is suported by how we know canon is developed.

The novelization may well be faithful to GL's story. The script is GL's story.

No, the films are GL's story. The script is an earlier version of it.

snip - come back to that.

Why should anyone accept your golden mean/appeal to ignorance/burden of proof fallacy combo, in place of evidence?

Golden mean? no - just taking how we know the novellisation and scripts are developed.

appeal to ignorance? no - If LFL wanted there to officially be a hierarchy to canon they have ample opportunity to make one, but they haven't. Thus, there's no reason to believe there is an official hierarchy. This isn't anappeal to ignorance, though it does resemble one. (see the bottom of http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/ignorant.html )

burden of proof? no. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate a hierarchy is required or officially exists.

You have said the novellisation is based on the script, and that is why it must be below the script.

Quote, please, oh master of straw.

certainly

the script is only one degree of separation from the ultimate canon (films), whereas the novelization is two:

novelization <-> script <-> film

above you show the only link of the novellisation to the film is through the script - which is not the case.

Wherever did you get the idiotic notion that the script is static throughout film production?

I didn't. Where did you get the notion that every single change to minor details that don't change the story must be re-written into the script?

Those paragraphs you snipped had an example that requires the author of the novellisation AND the authors of the worlds book to willfully ignore Lucas' own story if your opinion is correct. Your idea would create problems that do not need to exist. There is an alternative that allows both the novellisation and the Worlds book to be based on Lucas' story - all it needs is the novellisation to be as accurate a depiction of detail as the script.

Screenplays are rewritten continuously throughout, right up to the final print

And are often changed on the spot because someone thinks the scene will be better if they did it differently.

- likely weeks or months after the novel has been submitted to the publisher

"likely" - hiddenspeak for "I don't know if it's true, but I'll throw it in and hope no one questions it".

Why must the novellisation be submitted any earlier (or later) than the official script? Both would have to be submitted to the publishers long before the final version of the film is made.

GL's script is simply the most authoritative written version of the film

You haven't shown the script is a closer representation of GL's story than the novellisation.

The only reason you have to place one above the other is an appeal to authority and a mistaken idea of how the novellisation is developed. Why not simply place both at the same level and choose the one that is closest to the film in accuracy if we are forced to (which should be very rarely)

[The Dude]

You have continued to espouse your false dilemma requiring that LFL's internal continuity policy must wither be publically declared or nonexistent (despite the fact that the reasons for not making it public are detailed in the source cited).

You have continued to engage in the creationist-standard burden-of-proof fallacy by pretending that, in the absence of ironclad proof on my part, your "common sense" opinion somehow wins by default.

You have responded to accusations of fallacy by repeating them in your denials.

You have responded to the fact that scripts are updated continuously throughout production (by Lucas' own hand, no less) with nitpicking, handwaving and, best of all, the ludicrous implication that GL takes as active a hand in choosing words in another author's novel as he does in his own script (which, of course, begs the question of why he is not credited as a co-author).

Most importantly, you have conspicuously declined to provide even a single example of where a novelization was correct and the corresponding script was not, in response to one example of the reverse and an example of the novelization being overridden by the EU.

Your entire argument would be most appropriately described as ex nihilio (from nothing, for the Latin-impaired).

IOW, you lose.

[Lord Edam]

You have continued to espouse your false dilemma requiring that LFL's internal continuity policy must wither be publically declared or nonexistent (despite the fact that the reasons for not making it public are detailed in the source cited).

That's wrong. Either there is a hierarchy, or there isn't. There ARE only two options. If there are only two options it cannot be a false dilemma (see http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... lemma.html)

You have continued to engage in the creationist-standard burden-of-proof fallacy by pretending that, in the absence of ironclad proof on my part, your "common sense" opinion somehow wins by default.

Again you get things back to front. You have made an affirmative claim - that there is officially a hierarchy to canon. The only evidence for this claim is an appeal to authority. Your claim also causes problems that are not required.

Typially, it is the person claiming something exists (god, canon hierarchy) that has the burden of proof.

You have responded to accusations of fallacy by repeating them in your denials.

You listed three fallacies. Of those three, you fucked up two and got one completely opposite of what it should be.

Golden mean - there is no middle ground. There is either a hierarchy, or there is not.
appeal to ignorance - you really fucked that up. If, after ample opportunity to find positive evidence none is found then it is possible to claim the negative.
Burden of proof - burden of proof lies on the one claiming something does exist. You are claiming the hierarchy dos exist. The burden of proof lies at your feet.

You have responded to the fact that scripts are updated continuously throughout production (by Lucas' own hand, no less) with nitpicking, handwaving and, best of all, the ludicrous implication that GL takes as active a hand in choosing words in another author's novel as he does in his own script (which, of course, begs the question of why he is not credited as a co-author).

He is credited - "based on the story by George Lucas" or similar wording, though I never claimed Lucas has an active hand in the words the author chooses - only that the author and film crew work very closely together to ensure the stories stay true to GL's idea.

The scripts are updated continuously throughout production - just as the novellisation is.

Again, the only reason to place one above the other would be if one was closer to the actual story than the other - you have not proven that to be the case, and it requires several authors to specifically change GL's story for no reason whatsoever.

Most importantly, you have conspicuously declined to provide even a single example of where a novelization was correct and the corresponding script was not,

I did not decline, I said I'll get back to it later.

Your entire argument would be most appropriately described as ex nihilio (from nothing, for the Latin-impaired).

arguments of that form often use rumour or appeal to authority to strengthen the rhetoric.

You have made the affirmative claim that the official policy of Lucasfilm regarding canon has a hierarchy other than "films > the rest". I have asked you to provide evidence of this claim. All you have managed so far is an appeal to authority. You hide the fact that there is no evidence of this official position (and infact, indication against - see your wrongful accusations of appeal to ignorance) behind rumour.

[The Dude]

As you have done nothing but rephrase your previous arguments, continue to pretend that your legalistic interpretation of hearsay excuses you from having to provide any evidence that the information is incorrect, and evade the question of why you have stated that the novelization is as accurate as the scripts although you clearly have zero evidence to that effect (and evidence to the contrary has been provided), I will respond thusly:



You have continued to espouse your false dilemma requiring that LFL's internal continuity policy must wither be publically declared or nonexistent (despite the fact that the reasons for not making it public are detailed in the source cited).

You have continued to engage in the creationist-standard burden-of-proof fallacy by pretending that, in the absence of ironclad proof on my part, your "common sense" opinion somehow wins by default.

You have responded to accusations of fallacy by repeating them in your denials.

You have responded to the fact that scripts are updated continuously throughout production (by Lucas' own hand, no less) with nitpicking, handwaving and, best of all, the ludicrous implication that GL takes as active a hand in choosing words in another author's novel as he does in his own script (which, of course, begs the question of why he is not credited as a co-author).

Most importantly, you have conspicuously declined to provide even a single example of where a novelization was correct and the corresponding script was not, in response to one example of the reverse and an example of the novelization being overridden by the EU.

Your entire argument would be most appropriately described as ex nihilio (from nothing, for the Latin-impaired).

IOW, you lose