Snowtroopers - against canon

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-02-04 06:05pm

Snowtroopers are officially elite stormtroopers specialized in cold temperature environment. However in my theory they are not stormtroopers at all, but they are the army!
The main point is the helmet of the snowtroopers. The regular stormtrooper helmet must be hermetically connect to the suit since the Tie pilots use the same helmet. I think the space can be colder than any ice world, so the regular helmet CAN function in those worlds. Also the regular helmet provides more protection since it is fully enclosed. So why does an elite (of the elite) specialized force use less capable equipment than regular (elite) force?
The differences between the two armors are explained by the weight of the enviromental suit but the whole "heavy enviromental suit" thing became questionable if we mention that the regular armor can act as a limited spacesuit with only added breathing equipment or see the ANH where Tie pilots were moving in real enviromental suits ...
The snowtroopers wear rank plates unlike regular stormtroopers seen.

Vader was accompanied by regular stormtroopers! (Direct evidence that the regular armor can be used on an ice world without problems.) Whether less capable (The specialized environmental forces are more effective in their environment aren't they?) forces were assigned to the dark lord? I don't think so. Veer's order was to open a way for the invasion, not to invade the rebell base on his own! Otherwise Vader should come aboard of an AT-AT, not wasting time (from Veer's signal) to land ... So I think the use of snowtroopers was not planned and only happened due to Veer's desperate personal wish for succes.

I do not know whether Curtis Saxton thought about it or simply apply the common view without questioning it.

I ask for your thoughts. Please do not write that they are stormtroopers because xy resource stated that and xy resource is infallable! Neither the film nor its novelization do not state it.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-04 06:33pm

Cold air conducts heat more than vacuum, numbnuts.

The hood is to conserve breath heat and moisture.

Vader was escorted by snowtroopers.

Sorry to burst you break through.

If it doesn't explicitly contradict official, official is right.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-02-04 06:42pm

a full helment would conserve heat better then a fabric mask.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-04 06:43pm

And how do you know what the hood is made of?

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-02-05 01:53am

Heaturium?

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-02-05 04:29am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Cold air conducts heat more than vacuum, numbnuts.

The hood is to conserve breath heat and moisture.

Vader was escorted by snowtroopers.

Sorry to burst you break through.

If it doesn't explicitly contradict official, official is right.

Why to sorry? You are right I was completely wrong. So the hood was added to provide the needed extra heat insulation and maybe heating as well and the helmet has been changed to accomodate the hood. Thank you.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-02-05 04:37am

kojikun wrote:a full helment would conserve heat better then a fabric mask.

As a statement it is untrue. If the mask joins airtight it does not matter. More important whether the helmet or the mask is layered with heat insulator between the layers.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-02-05 04:56am

The attachment on the front of the helmet providing more convenient tempreture for the user by keeping in the heat from his own breath.

BTW, TIE Fighter pilot's helmet is just similar, not the same. Same for the AT-AT pilot's helmet.

Snowtroopers are not elite troopers. They are ordinary stormtroopers trained to take action in cold environment.

However, I think it would be illogical to garrison different type of stormtroopers aboard star destroyers. I rather think only the armour has different looks and the stormtroopers trained to use all types.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-02-05 05:11am

So, there are no snowtroopers but only stormtroopers and "snow armor" for each and all (maybe except the garrison units) of them? Interesting at least.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-02-05 05:18am

Don't take it as official, it's just my idea!

BTW vakundok check your private messages!

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-02-05 07:16am

It sounds better to me than the official. However since that task force was assembled to search for the rebells and destroy them whereever they were it was also possible that specialized forces were on board.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-02-05 07:46am

According to sources i have read, mostly EU sources, there are several kinds of Stormtrooper. There is the conventional trooper, the snowtrooper, the deserttrooper, swamp trooper, space trooper. With the exception of the Space Trooper the rest are just regular troopers with different armor to suit the enviroment. Just like any normal army the ST's have armor and camo to suit any kind of situation they may fall into. Jeez thats just common sence.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-02-05 02:57pm

vakundok wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Cold air conducts heat more than vacuum, numbnuts.

The hood is to conserve breath heat and moisture.

Vader was escorted by snowtroopers.

Sorry to burst you break through.

If it doesn't explicitly contradict official, official is right.
Why to sorry? You are right I was completely wrong. So the hood was added to provide the needed extra heat insulation and maybe heating as well and the helmet has been changed to accomodate the hood. Thank you.

Eh sorry I was in a bad mood, I was being an ass and condescending. It's alright, the closed helmet might be literally more efficient, but we're told otherwise. Its alright.

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2003-02-05 04:38pm

Darth Pounder wrote:According to sources i have read, mostly EU sources, there are several kinds of Stormtrooper. There is the conventional trooper, the snowtrooper, the deserttrooper, swamp trooper, space trooper. With the exception of the Space Trooper the rest are just regular troopers with different armor to suit the enviroment. Just like any normal army the ST's have armor and camo to suit any kind of situation they may fall into. Jeez thats just common sence.

The Imperial Sourcebook says that in addition to the Core Stormtrooper force(which are rumoured to be larger the the Army and Navy combined) a number of elite divisions where formed these include the snowtroopers, sand troopers etc. The Hoth Snowtroopers are part of the elite Blizzard Force Division, if i remember correctley.

I see it as Stormtroopers are trained for all environments.The best troops of each particular environment are then formed into the elite divisions, that will specialise in that terrain.

Any thoughts?

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-02-05 04:44pm

ok, vokun, seriously, youre a retard if you think a PERMEABLE MASK which is open on the sides a bottom can contain heat better then a fully enclosed ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED helmet.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-05 05:41pm

kojikun wrote:ok, vokun, seriously, youre a retard if you think a PERMEABLE MASK which is open on the sides a bottom can contain heat better then a fully enclosed ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED helmet.

The thing is, the helmet is not completely sealed under normal conditions, instead acting as a permanently installed gas mask. Hook up the hoses of a life support pack to those two little metal mesh units at the front of the helmet's neck collar and you've got an environmentally sealed suit.

The standard stormtrooper life support pack, as worn by the two stormtroopers pulling deck guard duty on the original DS (outside the hangar bay into which the Millenium Falcon is drawn) is a big, bulky, armored backpack, however.

Standard stormtrooper armor can deal with environmental extremes, but dealing with extreme cold under vacuum conditions is different from dealing with extreme cold in an atmosphere. Heat will be lost much faster in an atmosphere. Thus, the troopers wear their themal protective garments and have a backpack that provides them with thermal regulation and emergency supplies.

Wearing the snowtrooper backpack and potentially operating for days on end in a planetary environment makes the use of a closed-cycle oxygen supply impractical where it is not absolutely necessary. This means reliance on filtered air. The air exchange vents would naturally expel warm air, potentially even moist air, making those vents at the front of the helmet subject to icing up / clogging and also making them a perfect target in thermal sights. The face mask covers and insulates the vulnerable vents and diffuses the thermal signature.

It actually seems like a reasonably well thought out design.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-02-05 09:48pm

dude, the masks they wore were completely UNSEALED and free to blow in the wind. Their faces were effectively exposed to the cold save for line of sight from the from. Other then that they had no covering.

Zaku-chan · Post by **Zaku-chan** » 2003-02-05 09:54pm

Executor wrote:The Imperial Sourcebook says that in addition to the Core Stormtrooper force(which are rumoured to be larger the the Army and Navy combined) a number of elite divisions where formed these include the snowtroopers, sand troopers etc. The Hoth Snowtroopers are part of the elite Blizzard Force Division, if i remember correctley.

I see it as Stormtroopers are trained for all environments.The best troops of each particular environment are then formed into the elite divisions, that will specialise in that terrain.

Any thoughts?

Agreed. Saves time and money, rather than recruiting different people for every group from the start.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-02-05 10:57pm

kojikun wrote:dude, the masks they wore were completely UNSEALED and free to blow in the wind. Their faces were effectively exposed to the cold save for line of sight from the from. Other then that they had no covering.

Did you see a different movie from the rest of us? I don't remember seeing exactly what was under the cover, it might be a helmet just like a Stormtroopers only with a different shape, for all I know.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-02-06 04:05am

kojikun wrote:ok, vokun, seriously, youre a retard if you think a PERMEABLE MASK which is open on the sides a bottom can contain heat better then a fully enclosed ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED helmet.

For the heat EVERYTHING is permeable. The heat is unlike the water or air. The heat can move in several ways: radiation, conducting and passing. This is a physical fact, you can check at any time. In vacuum only the radiation is present (since the others reqire a material to happen) that is why you loose heat faster in an atmosphere.
I forgot about these when started this topic.

Open on the sides? I saw only a hood with a hardened visor mask weared under an opened helmet. I did not see whether the visor mask was separable or not. In the case they were separable (I personally think no) I also canot state whether they joined airtight or not.

If you are able to see these things you must have far sharper eyes than myself or a very detailed edition of TESB.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-02-06 05:38am

kojikun wrote:ok, vokun, seriously, youre a retard if you think a PERMEABLE MASK which is open on the sides a bottom can contain heat better then a fully enclosed ENVIRONMENTALLY SEALED helmet.

Please, think first kojikun!

I don't think the "retard" attribute would fit on vakundok!

How can you claim that the helmet is not sealed under the hood?

It would be illogical and totally useless...

Just watch the mustache of some rebels and you will see how their breath freezed on it.
Then think about the exhaust of the stormtrooper helmet...

Get it?

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-02-06 05:53am

And now for a more careful look at the Imperial Snowtroopers, based on ESB and SW, The Visual Dictionary, with just a tiny dash of the Imperial Sourcebook from WEG (and less of a look from the vantage point of myself in need of sleep and working from memory):

Snowtroopers wear a baggy thermal protective garment that is supplemented by additional clothing, armor and gear. Snowtrooper armor is definitely not the same as standard stormtrooper armor. If anything, it is probably a good model for the outfits worn by Imperial Army combat infantry troops.

Going from bottom to top, we have the following:

The trooper's feet are encased in "rugged ice boots." The legs are protected by heated pants (AKA trousers), and it is noted: "Legs less heavily armored, for mobility," indicating that the legs are, in fact, armored. Anti-blaster weave is the likeliest choice.

There appears to be a crotch guard of blast armor, and from waist to collarbone the front of the trooper's torso is covered by a one-piece chest plate of blast armor, visually very similar to that worn by General Veers. The back is protected by the snowtrooper backpack, which includes a communications unit, heater liquid pump, accessory power outlet, surplus power indicator, homing beacon, rations storage compartment and heavy duty power cell. The relevant quote is: "They can survive for two weeks in deeply frozen environments on suit battery power alone."

The arms are protected by three armor components, apparently bonded to the thermal garment: a large shoulder guard, an armor plate reaching from elbow to wrist (covering only the outside of the forearm), and a plate that covers the back of the hand from the base of the wrist to slightly beyond the knuckles.

The head is protected by a helmet with breath heater and polarized snow goggles, along with a breath warmer cover that reaches from below the snow goggles to below the point where the chest plate's coverage begins. The helmet pattern itself is obviously derived from the standard Imperial Army helmet pattern (per the Imperial Sourcebook). The standard Army helmet is the same as that worn by the AT-ST crewmen in ROTJ. (Army troops in more demanding combat environments may, conjecturally, wear stormtrooper-style helmets similar to those worn by AT-AT drivers, who are themselves supposed to be veteran Army personnel.) The snow goggles are obviously a permanent part of the helmet. Given the way the helmet is configured overall, the helmet has to have integral targeting systems like those of standard stormtrooper helmets if the trooper is to have any chance of hitting a target beyond a few tens of meters. As the helmet has permanently integrated goggles, and is supposed to include a breath heater beneath the fabric breath warmer cover, the presence of a full mask beneath the warmer cover is nearly certain, in particular since the front of the helmet would otherwise constitute a point of extreme vulnerability.

Per Star Wars ICS, the scout troopers participating in combined arms operations with snowtroopers also wear white, heated suits that include the same style of blast armor chest plate as worn by snowtroopers. The standard snowtrooper backpack supplements the scout trooper's standard backpack. The snowtrooper pack is connected to the scout's armor via a flexible hose, and is stored on the bike, behind the rider's saddle.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-02-06 09:15am

The similarity between the helmet of the snowtrooper and the AT-ST driver led to this forum. I envisioned the army trooper as a grayed version of the snowtrooper without the hood and the thick dress.
However.
Stormtroopers are elit forces related to the army, aren't they? Vader was escorted by snowtroopers. (I checked it.) Vader's accompanies should be elit forces. So, snowtroopers should be stormtroopers.
While the stormtrooper helmet provide more physical protection it is (easily) believable that the hood provide much more heat insulation and the hood does not fit into the regular helmet.
The normal stromtrooper boots seem to be more dangereous on snowy and icy terrain than any enemy.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-06 01:04pm

vakundok wrote:Stormtroopers are elit forces related to the army, aren't they? Vader was escorted by snowtroopers. (I checked it.) Vader's accompanies should be elit forces. So, snowtroopers should be stormtroopers.

A few snow troopers are undoubtably elite soldiers. This doesn't mean they all are. Hasty Generalization fallacy.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-02-06 01:56pm

Darth Servo wrote:A few snow troopers are undoubtably elite soldiers. This doesn't mean they all are. Hasty Generalization fallacy.

Please?
I think my word "elite" does not mean the same as yours. In my words elite means that the soldier is part of a highlighted unit. Like all SS troopers were elite soldiers regardless of their actual combat experience.