Imperial Military Blunders

[Ted C]

While the Empire doesn't seem to be as strategically stupid as the Federation, they clearly made some truly stupendous mistakes during their few decades of power.

Two of the obvious ones:

1) When 30 rebel fighters attacked the Death Star, the commander (Grand Moff Tarkin) didn't order a full fighter launch to take care of them. This act of negligence resulted in the destruction of the Death Star.

2) When the Empire installed shield facilities on the forest moon of Endor, they didn't clear trees and establish a properly secured perimeter. This act of negligence resulted in the destruction of the Empire's second Death Star.

Anyone care to contribute more?

[Posbi]

Well, the capture of the princess' transport in ANH wasn't that impressive.

[nightmare]

The capture of Tantive IV can be rationalized.

Personally, I would add a serious neglect of the starfighter corps, and an unhealthy focus on superweapons over the regular fleet. The first was the fault of the admirals, the second the fault of Palpatine. Superweapons have their place.. as an addition to your regular forces, but that is all.

As battles go, Hoth could have been done better, and surely would have been, if Ozzel wasn't incompetent/rebel sympathizer/whatever. It would have been a quicklong-range bombardment and then down in force, with air and orbital support.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Overconfidence has always been and always will be the the falling point of the Empire. Tarkin is a prime example of this behavoir. So is Palpatine,purposleygiving away the position of his Death Star, than not having the ISD armada attack. Plus the deforestation of Endor would've doomed both the Rebels and the Ewoks, can you say AT-AT?

That aside, the Imperial's haven't ever shown gross incompetence in battle when they were actually TRYING to win.

[The Dude]

The Empire's problems with military tactics and strategy probably have a lot to do with the fact that war is a pretty rare phenomenon in SW up to that point. The Republic doesn't even have an army as of TPM and AOTC.

IIRC, in TPM, Sio Bibble says that there hasn't been an all-out war since the foundation of the Republic - which is either 1000 years or 20-odd thousand depending on whether you believe Palpatine or Obi-Wan.

So, you're looking at centuries or millenia of general peace followed by

1) single-system skirmish (TPM)
2) 10 years of political unrest (but no armed conflict)
3) 2-3 years of large-scale war (Clone Wars)
4) 20-odd years of total domination by the Empire
5) 3-4 years of rebellion

This means, by the time of ANH, there will be a severe shortage of military tradition and real battle-tested military experience. It seems that the Republic Army in the Clone Wars was directed by Bail Organa and the Jedi (the "General Kenobi, you served my father in the Clone Wars" bit) - which may well mean that a majority of the veteran strategists and generals of the galaxy's only major war in at least 1000 years were either purged (like the Jedi) or ended up as Rebel sympathizers (like Organa). Which is to say nothing of the fact that they likely have ZERO experience fighting Alliance-style guerillas (as opposed to the relatively inflexible massed armies of the TradeFederation/Separatists).

To make a long story short - why do the Imperials make the mistakes they do? Because they're green (well, that and the overconfidence/theatrics issues).

[Ted C]

That aside, the Imperial's haven't ever shown gross incompetence in battle when they were actually TRYING to win.

Ahem... opening the back door to the surface bunker at the request of an AT-ST operator who gave no security code, didn't show his face, and probably didn't even rank high enough to make decisions about whether to commit reservers?

[CmdrWilkens]

That aside, the Imperial's haven't ever shown gross incompetence in battle when they were actually TRYING to win.

Ahem... opening the back door to the surface bunker at the request of an AT-ST operator who gave no security code, didn't show his face, and probably didn't even rank high enough to make decisions about whether to commit reservers?

That's where you get the overambitious junior officer syndromn. The guy who DID order the doors opened and sent out the squads looked to be a relatively junior officer (no more than a Lt perhaps). If there is one thing you can count on from junior officers its an overwhelming amount of enthusiasm, give them the potential for a shining victory (by pursuing and eliminating a Rebel force that they expected to be decimated) and its unsuprising that he leaps. In other words once again the Rebel show the Imperial just what they want to see and screw them because of it.

[Cpt_Frank]

While the Empire doesn't seem to be as strategically stupid as the Federation, they clearly made some truly stupendous mistakes during their few decades of power.

Two of the obvious ones:

1) When 30 rebel fighters attacked the Death Star, the commander (Grand Moff Tarkin) didn't order a full fighter launch to take care of them. This act of negligence resulted in the destruction of the Death Star.

I tend to disagree.

First, we don't see all the 30 Rebel fighters, we only see Rogue and Gold squadron, ten IIRC.
The other 20 were probably fighting other TIEs, and only one of them (the Y wing we see at the end) survived.
Next is the fact that the Rebels were clearly going for the trench, which means that the Empire's numerical advantage was useless since they couldn't fit an infine number of TIEs in there.
There was barely enough room for Vader and his two wingmen, which means that even if they'd sent hundreds or thousands, those would have to go into the trench and only the three leading fighters would be able to actually shoot at the Rebels.

So the smartest thing to do in such a situation to send you best pilots after them, which they did. (Vader)

[Zaku-chan]

Ahem... opening the back door to the surface bunker at the request of an AT-ST operator who gave no security code, didn't show his face, and probably didn't even rank high enough to make decisions about whether to commit reservers?

1. in the middle of a battle, they're got going to waste time asking for a security code, especially since they didn't know the ATST was stolen.

2. didn't show his face? I can see his eyes. Can you see his eyes?

3. he REQUESTED reinforcements, he didn't ORDER them.

[Oddity]

Battle of Yavin:

- Tarkin fails to launch fighters to meet the Rebel attack. However, this was neither due to overconfidence nor incompetence. No one could have imagined that a few enemy fighters could pose a threat to the Deathstar, and the attack would have failed if one of the pilots hadn't been a Jedi- trainee. Besides, Tarkin may not have been aware that the conventional weaponry of the Deathstar would be unable to hit something as small as a fighter before the battle.

Battle of Hoth:

- General Veers attack only with AT-ATs and some AT-STs. If he had backed up the walkers with battledroids and given them fighter cover, I doubt he would have lost a single one of those walkers. Imperial overconfidence.
- Also, he could have sent in TIE Bombers to knock out that Ion Cannon.

Battle of Endor:

- As Ted C mentioned; the Imperials didn't clear the area of trees so they could send in AT-ATs. Instead they had to rely on the lightly armored AT- STs. Artillery and fighter support was also absent. However, the Imperials expected to fight a Rebel commando team, nothing more. Overconfidence mixed with Rebel luck.
- And of course we have Palpatine's stupid decision not to fire the Deathstar on Ackbar's command ship first, and then unleash his capital ships upon them.

[Ted C]

First, we don't see all the 30 Rebel fighters, we only see Rogue and Gold squadron, ten IIRC. The other 20 were probably fighting other TIEs, and only one of them (the Y wing we see at the end) survived.

Next is the fact that the Rebels were clearly going for the trench, which means that the Empire's numerical advantage was useless since they couldn't fit an infine number of TIEs in there. There was barely enough room for Vader and his two wingmen, which means that even if they'd sent hundreds or thousands, those would have to go into the trench and only the three leading fighters would be able to actually shoot at the Rebels.

So the smartest thing to do in such a situation to send you best pilots after them, which they did. (Vader)

The Death Star was presumed to be capable of launching hundreds of fighters (and even that was probably an understatement, given its size). The Death Star's fighter complement would have overwhelmed the Rebel force in mere moments if Tarkin had ordered a launch. Imperial fighters could have targeted Rebel fighters in the trench from above, where limited maneuverability wouldn't have been much of a problem, and the Millenium Falcon wouldn't have been able to get to Luke to save his bacon.

Not launching a proper fighter response doomed the Death Star.

[nightmare]

[quote="Crazy Ivan"
Battle of Hoth:

- General Veers attack only with AT-ATs and some AT-STs. If he had backed up the walkers with battledroids and given them fighter cover, I doubt he would have lost a single one of those walkers. Imperial overconfidence.
- Also, he could have sent in TIE Bombers to knock out that Ion Cannon.
[/quote]

"VADER: What is it, General?

VEERS: My lord, the fleet has moved out of light-speed. Com-Scan has
detected an energy field protecting an area around the sixth planet of
the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any
bombardment.

VADER: (angrily) The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel
came out of light-speed too close to the system.

VEERS: He felt surprise was wiser...

VADER: He is as clumsy as he is stupid. General, prepare your troops
for a surface attack."

In other words, NO air-to-ground support because of the shield. No TIE bombers, no TIE fighters, no hovertanks, nothing. Before AOTC, this was merely the prevalent theory, now it's official. TIEs were most likely kept as part of the orbital blockade. As for battledroids, maybe they didn't have any in the Death Squadron? They were pretty much considered a waste of effort after the Clone Wars, and Vader's taskforce was supposed to have the best. Later developments in war droids proved better, of course. I would also say that SPHAs wouldn't have done a better job than the AT-ATs unless they have a much longer range, since they are slower.

If not for Ozzels mistake (deliberate or not), the Death Squadron would apparently have closed the distance on silent running and blown up the defences in a quick, surgical strike, then deployed troops. That's what I get out of it at least.

[RedImperator]

Battle of Yavin:

- Tarkin fails to launch fighters to meet the Rebel attack. However, this was neither due to overconfidence nor incompetence. No one could have imagined that a few enemy fighters could pose a threat to the Deathstar, and the attack would have failed if one of the pilots hadn't been a Jedi- trainee. Besides, Tarkin may not have been aware that the conventional weaponry of the Deathstar would be unable to hit something as small as a fighter before the battle.

He had tens of thousands of TIEs available. He could have shot down every one of those rebels before they even crossed the defensive screen. Hell, they should have been deployed anyway to prevent any rebels from evacuating Yavin before the DS fired. That's the only concievable reason the DS would need that kind of fighter capacity, anyway--to prevent people from escaping from planets targeted for destruction (similar to the way TIEs are used in the early phases of BDZ operations).

Speaking of which, why in the world were Dodanna and Princess Leia on Yavin during the battle? They couldn't do anything down there they couldn't have done on board a Corellian corvette, and if the attack failed, at least the Rebels' top leadership wouldn't have been anihilated along with their base, along with the Death Star plans which showed everybody how to destroy it.

[Warspite]

Battle of Yavin:

- Tarkin fails to launch fighters to meet the Rebel attack. However, this was neither due to overconfidence nor incompetence. No one could have imagined that a few enemy fighters could pose a threat to the Deathstar, and the attack would have failed if one of the pilots hadn't been a Jedi- trainee. Besides, Tarkin may not have been aware that the conventional weaponry of the Deathstar would be unable to hit something as small as a fighter before the battle.

Quite right, the defensive capabilities of the DS were aimed at countering capital ships, not fighters, hence, the reason they were emplyoed. Also, had Luke taken 1-2 seconds more, the Superlaser would had fired and blasted Yavin 4, completing the mission and defeating the Rebellion.

Battle of Hoth:

- General Veers attack only with AT-ATs and some AT-STs. If he had backed up the walkers with battledroids and given them fighter cover, I doubt he would have lost a single one of those walkers. Imperial overconfidence.
- Also, he could have sent in TIE Bombers to knock out that Ion Cannon.

In this case I disagree, Veers completed it's mision in destroying the Shield generator. It cost him 2 AT-At's and an unaccounted number of units, but it was a sucessfull mission, throwing into disarray all Rebel oposition. The ground units went under the shield, only if they are able to carry TIE's would they be able to employ them. Since TIE's weren't used, we must assume there weren't any transports for the craft.
We don't know if there are any anti-air defences around the Ion Cannon, preventing an air attack. A space bombardment after the shields are gone could be precluded, since the Death Squadron was involved in destroying/capturing fleeing Rebel ships, and a direct bombardment of the IC site could be dangerous, exposing the attacking ship to fire from the cannon (remember, it was able to fire rapid sequential shots).

This battle is more tricky, I would say the only blunder is from Ozzel, but that's another discussion...

Battle of Endor:

- As Ted C mentioned; the Imperials didn't clear the area of trees so they could send in AT-ATs. Instead they had to rely on the lightly armored AT- STs. Artillery and fighter support was also absent. However, the Imperials expected to fight a Rebel commando team, nothing more. Overconfidence mixed with Rebel luck.
- And of course we have Palpatine's stupid decision not to fire the Deathstar on Ackbar's command ship first, and then unleash his capital ships upon them.

No comments here.

[nightmare]

Speaking of which, why in the world were Dodanna and Princess Leia on Yavin during the battle? They couldn't do anything down there they couldn't have done on board a Corellian corvette, and if the attack failed, at least the Rebels' top leadership wouldn't have been anihilated along with their base, along with the Death Star plans which showed everybody how to destroy it.

That's why Tarkin held his fighters back. He wanted to have them ready for an escape attempt

Actually, that makes some sense, but I don't think that's the reason. We didn't see any large capital ships at Yavin, it's likely that only a fraction could have been evacuated in time. But sure, the leaders could have made it out of there.

I would say it was a moral decision, to not abandon the troops. The base was also equipped as a command central, a small capship would probably not have been as suitable (Particularly if you imagine Dodonna trying to command the attack from the MF's tiny bridge).

[Zaku-chan]

Speaking of which, why in the world were Dodanna and Princess Leia on Yavin during the battle? They couldn't do anything down there they couldn't have done on board a Corellian corvette, and if the attack failed, at least the Rebels' top leadership wouldn't have been anihilated along with their base, along with the Death Star plans which showed everybody how to destroy it.

They had nowhere to run.

[RedImperator]

From the Star Wars technical commentaries:

According to the blueprints, the starfighter complement of the Death Star I is:

1831 TIE Fighters
2904 TIE Assault Craft
806 TIE Boarding Craft
1384 Scouts

<snip>

The number of fighters for the Death Star I as stated in the Death Star Technical Companion is larger but of the same order: 100 TIE Wings. This is 7200 TIE craft of various classes.

Tarkin had, according to official sources, a minimum of 1831 TIE fighters available to him (minus the four shot down during the Falcon's escape). The Rebels had 30 fighters with which to attack the DSI. All the "the Rebels almost lost anyway" rationalizations don't change the fact that Tarkin blundered by not deploying more than a fraction of his available force. Even if the fighters weren't a threat, what if the Rebels had had heavy transports available at Yavin with which to evacuate, like they had at Hoth? Tarkin may have ended up destroying their heavy equipment while critical personnel survived, along with their knowledge of the Death Star's structure and internal layout. Maybe it's unreasonable to expect them to have had a fighter screen up because they thought their surface guns were adequete to handle any attack and they didn't expect snubfighters to be a threat, anyway, there was a 30 minute delay from the time the DS jumped in system to the time it could have fired; enough time, had the Rebels been better prepared, to evacuate the top people and get the fighters somewhere safe, unless Tarkin deployed fighters to intercept escaping transports and ensure the Rebels remained trapped on the surface, and these fighters could have intercepted the incoming X-wings and Y-wings as well.

[RedImperator]

Speaking of which, why in the world were Dodanna and Princess Leia on Yavin during the battle? They couldn't do anything down there they couldn't have done on board a Corellian corvette, and if the attack failed, at least the Rebels' top leadership wouldn't have been anihilated along with their base, along with the Death Star plans which showed everybody how to destroy it.

They had nowhere to run.

Then you get the fuck out and figure out where you're going later. Though, I'll concede that they may have decided that they were going to stand with their troops rather than run--I forgot that Leia and Dodonna weren't the top rebels. Mon Mothma was nowhere to be seen on Yavin, and I'd guess her survival would be more critical than Leia's (after all, she was a senator from Alderran in an Empire that had just dissolved the Senate and destroyed Alderran).

[Darth Yoshi]

About Tarkin, someone told him, "We've analyzed the Rebel attack pattern, and there may be a weakness. Shall I prepare your shuttle?" Or something like that. The point is, he was told that the fighters may have a shot at destroying the station, and he ignored it, responding, "In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."

[Howedar]

Tarkin was right. They did overestimate the Rebel's chances. The problem was, there still was a chance there, and the Rebels won out.

[neoolong]

About Tarkin, someone told him, "We've analyzed the Rebel attack pattern, and there may be a weakness. Shall I prepare your shuttle?" Or something like that. The point is, he was told that the fighters may have a shot at destroying the station, and he ignored it, responding, "In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."

Ironic that the guy who probably figured it out not only didn't overestimate their chances, but probably ended up dying as well.

[nightmare]

About Tarkin, someone told him, "We've analyzed the Rebel attack pattern, and there may be a weakness. Shall I prepare your shuttle?" Or something like that. The point is, he was told that the fighters may have a shot at destroying the station, and he ignored it, responding, "In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."

Ironic that the guy who probably figured it out not only didn't overestimate their chances, but probably ended up dying as well.

No, he took Tarkin's shuttle and left, I read it somewhere. Palpatine saved him from deserting because he wouldn't have known the truth about what happened otherwise.

Nitpick at previous posters: Tarkin never deployed any fighters. It was Vader who went out on his own with his sqaudron.

[PainRack]

Plenty.

ANH
1.The Imperial Forces at Tatooine failed to properly insitute a blockade of the system,grounding all spacecraft and deploying sufficient interdictors to stop them from escaping in space.

2.Imperial forces ignored the Rebel attacks.

TESB
1.The blockade,was ineffective.With only one transport escaping at a time,it should have been possible for TIE fighters and the like to destroy their escorts and damage the transports.Incidently,the TESB blockade is ample proof of the fact that General Dodonna statement in ANH,that a snubfighter can't do any damage except to another snubfighter is probably true.Cause the transports,got away,after capital ships were damaged.

2.The AT-AT,was competent enough.The problem was the follow up.They didn't follow standard FOFO tactics,instead,choosing to land forces beyond the entrenched lines and entering the base itself direct.While this could be excused due to the need to get to the landing sites,the fact is,the Rebels landing zone were not significantly hindered by the Imperial ground operation.
Yes,we see the fact that Leia couldn't get to the transport as the corridor collasped,but Luke,Wedge and the rest managed to get to the transports and fighters,which in the SE,were clearly shown to be outdoors!

In other words,they focused on the wrong objective,the base instead of the ships.

Needless to say,the Imperial forces running through the base were running through the base,not securing the base at all.

In Cloud City,Imperial stormtroopers failed to properly secure and protect the prisoners.There is no evidence of them letting Leia and Lando purposely getting away.

Furthermore,at the docking bay,a dedicated charge to close quarters,would have finished off Leia and co.Instead,they stayed behind at the doorways and sniped at the enemy.

3.Whooboy!@!ROTJ.

Let me count the way.
Prefixed battle plan,without much flexibility.
Convoluted command chain.
Imperial Navy,army chain of command.Same objective of protecting the site,but different chains of command.Furthermore,the defence of the bunker was isolated,as the internal defence was supposed to be under Naval purview,whereas the outer defence was stormtrooper.
Palpy leaving out infomation on the loop.He countervened Vader orders,and issued orders directly to Vader subordinate,Pietts.On top of that,Piett subordinates had no idea what Palpy was going to do.
There was no idea on what to do.The Imperial plan was to simply blockade the Rebel forces,while the Death Star blew them to bits.There appeared to be no follow up,after the Death Star strike,yielding the initative to the Rebels.

While I could understand the decision not to clear the jungle for interests of convoluted secrecy,the defence plan was screwed up.
It relied on scouts teams being able to locate a rebel commando team,before they entered the defence perimeter.While this on paper sounds good,it was a failure practically.They failed to notice the ewok army moving up to attack the stormtroopers.

Lastly,the defence of the shield generator was utmost.Despite the Emperor plans and traps,there should have been NO ACCESS to that generator.Yet,Han and company gained access easily,in the first place.
What would have happened if there were sucide bombers in the commando team?

[Boba Fett]

About Tarkin, someone told him, "We've analyzed the Rebel attack pattern, and there may be a weakness. Shall I prepare your shuttle?" Or something like that. The point is, he was told that the fighters may have a shot at destroying the station, and he ignored it, responding, "In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances."

Ironic that the guy who probably figured it out not only didn't overestimate their chances, but probably ended up dying as well.

No, he took Tarkin's shuttle and left, I read it somewhere. Palpatine saved him from deserting because he wouldn't have known the truth about what happened otherwise.

Nitpick at previous posters: Tarkin never deployed any fighters. It was Vader who went out on his own with his sqaudron.

That's right!

He's on Saxton's page amongst the "Death Star survivors".

I doubt that landing behind the trench line would be acceptable...

1. Maybe the landscape behind Echo base was filled with mountains.

2. If it was plain then I'm pretty sure that there were trenches also.

I rather think point 1. is acceptable. In point 2's case the imperials should land another group of attack on the other side of Echo Base.


TIE bombers making attack run on the generator?
How?

They can't pass through the shield only if they can get in by the time when a transport is leaving.


In my eyes Tarkin was rather a "political officer" -similar to the ones in the Red Army- than a military tactician.

If I were Tarkin and see 30 fighter coming I'm pretty sure that I would let out my fighters. They would be history before they reach the Death Star.

Beside that I'm also sure that they had experience with fixed based TL cannons against fast moving targets. So why were they "surprised"?


Illogical thing:

Vader felt the presence of Luke on the Tydirium.
If I were Vader I would quickly eliminate the shuttle at it's landing point.
All you have to do is to jam the comm. of the commando team and the Rebel Fleet would be history in a couple of hours. The Death Star II wouldn't be destroyed...

[Lord Pounder]

The thing that has always bothered me about the Battle Of Yavin is that it's never been established that the DS1 was fully staffed. My thoughts where that the DS was only just completed and so the station was running with a skeleton crew. If that was the case i doubt they had a full complement of Ties.