StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Have been watching Ep3 tonight (and also reading the 'sidious Vs Kenobi Vader Vs Yoda' thread) and had a thought regarding the Senate Pod scene as a determination of Palpatine's strength.

The scene boils down to this:

1: Yoda jumps onto a Senate Pod, Palpatine has two pods in the air which are 'thrown' down at Yoda.
2: Palpatine moves three pods into the air - one he is standing on, the other two get raised above him travelling in similar patterns to the normal pod motion (from ep1, etc), they then 'jerk' up then go flying down at Yoda. A distinct humming/fluttering noise is heard - similar to other Star Wars engine noises.
Yoda jumps between the two pods.
3: While Yoda is jumping another two Pods come from their moorings - these do not move 'up' rather they slide out in 'normal' motion, that is to say rather slowly, then go hurtling down at Yoda.
4: The final Pod is thrown at Yoda - This Pod is the only one that to me appears to get 'ripped' from its moorings, sparks from the contact point are seen and a metalic screeching noise are heard. This same noise is heard when Yoda stops the Pod from hitting him.
5: Yoda throws the Pod back at Palpatine, who jumps out the way.

Several times as the Pods are flying at Yoda, a 'repulserlift' noise, similar to that of Padme's ship earlier in the film, is heard.

Now many have previously mentioned that Palpatine is able to throw the Pods around willy-nilly, however I'm starting to think that Palpatine may have been using the Senate Pods engines to provide a lot of the power. I see several key points regard this:
- As mentioned similar noises to other engines are heard.
- Only one pod appears to be 'ripped' from its connection, indicating that the normal controls were in operation for the others.
- Yoda is able to stop one of the Pods before it hits him.
- Palpatine doesn't attempt to stop the single Pod thrown at him, but rather jumps out the way (If Palpatine could throw the Pods around with ease, why not just stop it?).

Now obviously Palpatine would be using the force to direct the Pods, whether 'throwing' or manipulating their controls, but is there any way we can determine what was providing the most power? Is there any record in the EU of Palpatine throwing/moving other objects about?

Thoughts would be appreciated.

I always interpreted as the Senate Pod's engine's struggling to keep the pods afloat. You know, similar to how we heard the Executor's engine begun to struggle when it began its descent into the Death Star II.

Actually, it makes a great deal of sense that Palpatine was merely manipulating the controls of the pods, with perhaps a little Force energy to alter their trajectories.

Palpatine is obviously a master at manipulating people and situations in very subtle and specific ways, therefore there's good reason to suggest his application of the Force may employ the same type of mentality.

This also adds some credibility as to why a spinning pod would present a more troublesome attack, and could also explain why Yoda tired before Palpatine did. The spinning pod was actually a direct application of the Force to move it as opposed to using it's own engines, hence Palpatine jumped out of the way rather than expend himself trying to stop it directly.

The end result being he had enough energy left to defeat Yoda and force a retreat. He tapped Yoda's established weakness of trying to be too direct with Force power application. This weakness was also demostrated in "Attack of the Clones", where Yoda wasted a great deal of concentration and energy holding up the large pillar falling towards Anakin and Obi Won. Had Yoda been more intelligent, he should've just altered it's trajectory sufficiently to not land upon the two fallen Jedi. When Dooku attacked him with multiple objects, like rocks and the metallic container, Yoda also demostrated being to direct with Force power there as well.

I viewed it as Palpatine, overwhelming the engines in the pods. Thus the noises heard are the engines struggling to keep themselves righted and afloat.

This is just another example of people wanting to depower the Force users in SW so that it fits into some semblance of reality for them, which is absolutely contradictory to the fact the the movie is supposed to by fantasy and myth.

havokeff wrote:I viewed it as Palpatine, overwhelming the engines in the pods. Thus the noises heard are the engines struggling to keep themselves righted and afloat.

This is just another example of people wanting to depower the Force users in SW so that it fits into some semblance of reality for them, which is absolutely contradictory to the fact the the movie is supposed to by fantasy and myth.

How do you figure? I just see it as another theory to consider. This one would yield a smaller value for brute force (while indicating greater precision), while yours (the more obvious one) would yield a larger value for brute force and indicate little with respect to precision.

Course, how do we figure which one makes more sense than the other?

Bubble Boy wrote:Actually, it makes a great deal of sense that Palpatine was merely manipulating the controls of the pods, with perhaps a little Force energy to alter their trajectories.

How does manipulating the controls make more sense then just grabbing the whole thing and throwing it?

Palpatine is obviously a master at manipulating people and situations in very subtle and specific ways, therefore there's good reason to suggest his application of the Force may employ the same type of mentality.

People and situations in which he has spent, sometimes decades, plotting. Not flight controls in the middle of a battle for all the marbles with the greatest Jedi Master in history. The only thing mechanical we have seen him manipulate is a pair of handcuffs. I'm not sure if we even know that he can pilot anything. I'm sure that he can, but I'm not sure we've ever seen it.

This also adds some credibility as to why a spinning pod would present a more troublesome attack, and could also explain why Yoda tired before Palpatine did. The spinning pod was actually a direct application of the Force to move it as opposed to using it's own engines, hence Palpatine jumped out of the way rather than expend himself trying to stop it directly.

Or Palpatine just didn't react in time to the attack, which is how I saw it. It took him a moment to realize what Yoda was doing. As for Yoda tiring sooner, he is 800 some odd years old. He is well into old age, where as Palpatine is in the middle of his life.

The end result being he had enough energy left to defeat Yoda and force a retreat. He tapped Yoda's established weakness of trying to be too direct with Force power application. This weakness was also demostrated in "Attack of the Clones", where Yoda wasted a great deal of concentration and energy holding up the large pillar falling towards Anakin and Obi Won. Had Yoda been more intelligent, he should've just altered it's trajectory sufficiently to not land upon the two fallen Jedi. When Dooku attacked him with multiple objects, like rocks and the metallic container, Yoda also demostrated being to direct with Force power there as well.

Again, this perceived misuse or misapplication of power can be chalked up to Yoda's age. More than likely in his youth, this use of his powers was probably fine and had no negative effects on his stamina. It comes back to what he said about the Jedi being arrogant and stagnant and being unable to adapt. It applies to himself as well.

havokeff wrote:

Bubble Boy wrote:Actually, it makes a great deal of sense that Palpatine was merely manipulating the controls of the pods, with perhaps a little Force energy to alter their trajectories.

How does manipulating the controls make more sense then just grabbing the whole thing and throwing it?

Because operating the existing controls of a pod would be vastly easier than trying to move the pod around by brute force. When facing an opponent with equal capability, the more efficient you are with your energy reserves, the more likely you can get your opponent to tire before you do.

Which is exactly what happened.

Palpatine is obviously a master at manipulating people and situations in very subtle and specific ways, therefore there's good reason to suggest his application of the Force may employ the same type of mentality.

People and situations in which he has spent, sometimes decades, plotting. Not flight controls in the middle of a battle for all the marbles with the greatest Jedi Master in history. The only thing mechanical we have seen him manipulate is a pair of handcuffs. I'm not sure if we even know that he can pilot anything. I'm sure that he can, but I'm not sure we've ever seen it.

I take it then Palpatine being a senator and operating pods himself, which we see during TMP, just happened to slip your memory?

Manipulating controls of the pod would be vastly easier than manipulating my afore mentioned examples because they're designed for just that.

This also adds some credibility as to why a spinning pod would present a more troublesome attack, and could also explain why Yoda tired before Palpatine did. The spinning pod was actually a direct application of the Force to move it as opposed to using it's own engines, hence Palpatine jumped out of the way rather than expend himself trying to stop it directly.

Or Palpatine just didn't react in time to the attack, which is how I saw it. It took him a moment to realize what Yoda was doing. As for Yoda tiring sooner, he is 800 some odd years old. He is well into old age, where as Palpatine is in the middle of his life.

Feel free to explain why your explanation is superior to the one I've suggested.

The end result being he had enough energy left to defeat Yoda and force a retreat. He tapped Yoda's established weakness of trying to be too direct with Force power application. This weakness was also demostrated in "Attack of the Clones", where Yoda wasted a great deal of concentration and energy holding up the large pillar falling towards Anakin and Obi Won. Had Yoda been more intelligent, he should've just altered it's trajectory sufficiently to not land upon the two fallen Jedi. When Dooku attacked him with multiple objects, like rocks and the metallic container, Yoda also demostrated being to direct with Force power there as well.

Again, this perceived misuse or misapplication of power can be chalked up to Yoda's age.

And? This doesn't refute the point, and it a excellent reason why he lost.

More than likely in his youth, this use of his powers was probably fine and had no negative effects on his stamina.

Do you realize how stupid this sounds? At a younger age Yoda would at best merely have longer stamina, not be 'unaffected' by it.

By your logic a young long distance runner would never tire, but an older one would.

It comes back to what he said about the Jedi being arrogant and stagnant and being unable to adapt. It applies to himself as well.

I fail to see a single arguement or point of yours that contradicts or shows any flaw with the notion Palpatine manipulated the pod controls to achieve his feat of hurling them at Yoda.

havokeff wrote:I viewed it as Palpatine, overwhelming the engines in the pods. Thus the noises heard are the engines struggling to keep themselves righted and afloat.

Or perhaps the engines being activated by Palpatine so he requires very little effort to move them and gun them towards Yoda.

It would be an intelligent and efficient use of the Force for Palpatine to do that, something one would expect from a master manipulator such as himself.

This is just another example of people wanting to depower the Force users in SW so that it fits into some semblance of reality for them, which is absolutely contradictory to the fact the the movie is supposed to by fantasy and myth.

Ah, good old Circumstantial Ad Hominem.

What's actually being done is establishing lower limits to capability. It not like we haven't seen Force users routinely manipulating controls before, and the often claimed most powerful Jedi clearly exerts himself just moving things like an incoming metallic container, falling rocks, a falling pillar, a submerged fighter craft, etc.

Not to mention one of the most powerful Siths (Lord Vader) never demostrates power beyond crushing a random bulkhead or two, lights and knocking over a few droids while under the influence of enormous rage after learning he killed his wife.

Bubble Boy wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Bubble Boy wrote:Actually, it makes a great deal of sense that Palpatine was merely manipulating the controls of the pods, with perhaps a little Force energy to alter their trajectories.

How does manipulating the controls make more sense then just grabbing the whole thing and throwing it?

Because operating the existing controls of a pod would be vastly easier than trying to move the pod around by brute force. When facing an opponent with equal capability, the more efficient you are with your energy reserves, the more likely you can get your opponent to tire before you do.

Repeating yourself does not make what you say true. How is it easier? It requires more concentration and more finesse. In the context of the situation "When facing an opponent with equal capability" taking the time to operate the controls on MULTIPLE pods, when throwing them with brute Force works far quicker and easier, seems more like a waste then just using brute force. Also we see Palpatine making giant throwing motions as the pods are hurtled through the air. Not exactly helping the subtle control manipulation argument.

Which is exactly what happened.

You have PROOF of this?

Palpatine is obviously a master at manipulating people and situations in very subtle and specific ways, therefore there's good reason to suggest his application of the Force may employ the same type of mentality.

People and situations in which he has spent, sometimes decades, plotting. Not flight controls in the middle of a battle for all the marbles with the greatest Jedi Master in history. The only thing mechanical we have seen him manipulate is a pair of handcuffs. I'm not sure if we even know that he can pilot anything. I'm sure that he can, but I'm not sure we've ever seen it.

I take it then Palpatine being a senator and operating pods himself, which we see during TMP, just happened to slip your memory?

Manipulating controls of the pod would be vastly easier than manipulating my afore mentioned examples because they're designed for just that.

I don't recall any Senators operating any controls to move the pods. They just move as a Senator is recognized to speak on the "floor". I'll give you the ease of operation point for the moment until I can get home to some books.

This also adds some credibility as to why a spinning pod would present a more troublesome attack, and could also explain why Yoda tired before Palpatine did. The spinning pod was actually a direct application of the Force to move it as opposed to using it's own engines, hence Palpatine jumped out of the way rather than expend himself trying to stop it directly.

Or Palpatine just didn't react in time to the attack, which is how I saw it. It took him a moment to realize what Yoda was doing. As for Yoda tiring sooner, he is 800 some odd years old. He is well into old age, where as Palpatine is in the middle of his life.

Feel free to explain why your explanation is superior to the one I've suggested.

First I didn't say it was superior, simply that it is what I observed. Second, if it is superior, it is because it is what we see on screen with out having to over complicate it.

The end result being he had enough energy left to defeat Yoda and force a retreat. He tapped Yoda's established weakness of trying to be too direct with Force power application. This weakness was also demostrated in "Attack of the Clones", where Yoda wasted a great deal of concentration and energy holding up the large pillar falling towards Anakin and Obi Won. Had Yoda been more intelligent, he should've just altered it's trajectory sufficiently to not land upon the two fallen Jedi. When Dooku attacked him with multiple objects, like rocks and the metallic container, Yoda also demostrated being to direct with Force power there as well.

Again, this perceived misuse or misapplication of power can be chalked up to Yoda's age.

And? This doesn't refute the point, and it a excellent reason why he lost.

You are right. It does however establish a pattern with the two most powerful avatars of the light and dark side. Blunt use of their power over finesse and subtle manipulation as you claim, but we never see. Especially in the context of a battle.

More than likely in his youth, this use of his powers was probably fine and had no negative effects on his stamina.

Do you realize how stupid this sounds? At a younger age Yoda would at best merely have longer stamina, not be 'unaffected' by it.

By your logic a young long distance runner would never tire, but an older one would.

Oh please... fine, just amend my statement to say "no immediate negative effects on his stamina", since I clearly think Yoda NEVER got tired until he got old.

It comes back to what he said about the Jedi being arrogant and stagnant and being unable to adapt. It applies to himself as well.

I fail to see a single arguement or point of yours that contradicts or shows any flaw with the notion Palpatine manipulated the pod controls to achieve his feat of hurling them at Yoda.

It's not my job to disprove what you claim. It is your job to prove it. You have not.

havokeff wrote:This is just another example of people wanting to depower the Force users in SW so that it fits into some semblance of reality for them, which is absolutely contradictory to the fact the the movie is supposed to by fantasy and myth.

Stop talking crap, in case you decided to ignore all I said I'll remind you:

atg wrote:I'm starting to think that Palpatine may have been using the Senate Pods engines to provide a lot of the power.
...
Is there any record in the EU of Palpatine throwing/moving other objects about?

I'm not trying to weaken Palpatine, I'm trying to discuss something I noted from the scene. I note the senate pods flying around, I hear engine noises, I'm trying to determine what was doing what. You'll also note that I asked if there are other examples from the EU of similar feats. Wouldn't I want to ignore any such event if I'm trying to gimp Palpatine?

I viewed it as Palpatine, overwhelming the engines in the pods. Thus the noises heard are the engines struggling to keep themselves righted and afloat.

If Palpatine wasn't manipulating the controls, then why would the Pods be 'on' if the senate wasn't in session? Wouldn't the engines struggling to keep themselves righted be against what Palpatine would want and surely he could have known how to turn them off?

Now just in case I didn't state it clearly enough in the OP, my theory is that Palpatine was using the engines in addition to using the force.

Bubble Boy wrote:

havokeff wrote:I viewed it as Palpatine, overwhelming the engines in the pods. Thus the noises heard are the engines struggling to keep themselves righted and afloat.

Or perhaps the engines being activated by Palpatine so he requires very little effort to move them and gun them towards Yoda.

It would be an intelligent and efficient use of the Force for Palpatine to do that, something one would expect from a master manipulator such as himself.

So now he not only ripped them out of their docking ports, but he activated them and steered them. Yeah. OK. That is way more simple then just throwing them with brute force.

This is just another example of people wanting to depower the Force users in SW so that it fits into some semblance of reality for them, which is absolutely contradictory to the fact the the movie is supposed to by fantasy and myth.

Ah, good old Circumstantial Ad Hominem.

What's actually being done is establishing lower limits to capability. It not like we haven't seen Force users routinely manipulating controls before, and the often claimed most powerful Jedi clearly exerts himself just moving things like an incoming metallic container, falling rocks, a falling pillar, a submerged fighter craft, etc.

No. Establishing a LOWER limit is saying Palpatine used brute force and not MORE extensive powers of control that we CAN'T see. And again, all those examples of Yoda you cited are from when he was 850 years old +. He died naturally at 900. Use your uncommon sense. That would be like Palpatine in the same fight at 95.

Not to mention one of the most powerful Siths (Lord Vader) never demostrates power beyond crushing a random bulkhead or two, lights and knocking over a few droids while under the influence of enormous rage after learning he killed his wife.

And Palpatine claimed he would be more powerful then both himself and Yoda. So if Vader isn't using fine Force control in battle as you say Palpatineis, and not just brute Force as we see Palpatine and Yoda both do, why would you assume Palpatine can do it, when you don't see it?

Assuming Palpatine was manipulating the controls instead of flinging the pods with the power of the Force it raises the all important question.

Why the fuck would Senate pods be designed to fly spinning through air in a manner that puts speeders and Coruscant flying cars to shame ? Is the Senate of the Galactic Republic a theme park where Senators play bumper cars to amuse themselves ?

Sarevok wrote:Assuming Palpatine was manipulating the controls instead of flinging the pods with the power of the Force it raises the all important question.

Why the fuck would Senate pods be designed to fly spinning through air in a manner that puts speeders and Coruscant flying cars to shame ?

Did it ever occur to you that when the destruction of a vehicle is not a concern, you can very easily make it perform manuevers and motions it wasn't intented to?

I'd suggest you watch vehicle stunts and accidents for very enlightening examples.

Saying that Palpy was manipulating the controls of the pods isn't a "cheat' - he's manipulating quite a few different objects simultaneously, and doing feats which would require quite a LARGE degree of fine control to do so as well, nevermind the coorindation issues (and the fact he isn't even able to LOOK at any of the controls.)

It is POSSIBLE he could do that, but it would be a rather extraordinary feat and one demonstrating more than one possible feat (extreme feats of coordination of multiple abilities/objects and multitasking, fine telekinetic control, exceptional sensory abilities to allow him to control the seats without sight of the controls, etc.) This tends to make it a much more complicated theory than merely "brute force" (whihc is a known and demonstrated ability for Jedi knights.) So from a standpoint of Occam's Razor, the "brute force" theory is more attractive.

There is also the fact Yoda with the last pod quite obviously "spins" the pod rapdily, the whole incident itself tending to lend more credence to the "brute force" approach rather than "fine control" (I find it hard tobelieve the pod has controls to "spin around in place rapidly")

There is also the not-so-minor fact they get ripped out of their mountings, which as Mike has noted for many other feats (IE ripping machinery from walls) can require significant TK efforts that can match or exceed the throwing effort.

On the other hand, its also quite possible the pods were only telekinetically THROWN - their own antigrav may be sufficient even without manipulation of the controls for them to float on their own.

havokeff wrote:

Bubble Boy wrote:

havokeff wrote: How does manipulating the controls make more sense then just grabbing the whole thing and throwing it?

Because operating the existing controls of a pod would be vastly easier than trying to move the pod around by brute force. When facing an opponent with equal capability, the more efficient you are with your energy reserves, the more likely you can get your opponent to tire before you do.

Repeating yourself does not make what you say true. How is it easier? It requires more concentration and more finesse.

So does driving a car as compared to physically pushing it around.

Guess which activity is easier?

In the context of the situation "When facing an opponent with equal capability" taking the time to operate the controls on MULTIPLE pods, when throwing them with brute Force works far quicker and easier, seems more like a waste then just using brute force.

That's like saying driving a car that requires the operating of a gas pedal, brake pedal and steering wheel is more difficult than getting behind the vehicle and pushing it where you want to go (or in this case, actually throwing it).

Perhaps you can go try both ideas with your car and get back to us on which method gave you better results. Operating a car's controls with all that 'finesse', or physically pushing the car around.

Also we see Palpatine making giant throwing motions as the pods are hurtled through the air. Not exactly helping the subtle control manipulation argument.

Palpatine's hand gestures are as telling as Vader's lightsaber moving up and down when he threw objects at Luke in ESB. In other words, they mean very little other than just a physical expression of what they're trying to accomplish.

Which is exactly what happened.

You have PROOF of this?

You missed the part were Yoda was tired and defeated now?

Feel free to explain why your explanation is superior to the one I've suggested.

First I didn't say it was superior, simply that it is what I observed. Second, if it is superior, it is because it is what we see on screen with out having to over complicate it.

Explain how driving a car is harder than physically pushing/throwing it around, or why the idea of driving a car without concern for it's destruction means you can manuever it in ways not intented by it's design.

And? This doesn't refute the point, and it a excellent reason why he lost.

You are right. It does however establish a pattern with the two most powerful avatars of the light and dark side. Blunt use of their power over finesse and subtle manipulation as you claim, but we never see. Especially in the context of a battle.

Correction, I've pointed out how Yoda has repeatedly demostrated blunt application of Force power, and why this would be an excellent reason why he would lose to an opponent with far more efficient use of his power.

I fail to see a single arguement or point of yours that contradicts or shows any flaw with the notion Palpatine manipulated the pod controls to achieve his feat of hurling them at Yoda.

It's not my job to disprove what you claim. It is your job to prove it. You have not.

It's quite obvious that manipulating the controls of the Senate pods via the Force would be vastly easier than simply hurling them physically at Yoda, as per my car example. Yoda has demostrated a blunt force mentally with his abilities, and Palpatine has demostrated the mentality of subtlety and more finesse with his actions and intentions.

This is a perfectly valid and good explanation as to why Palpatine defeated Yoda in a contest of Force power.

It seems to me you just don't like this potential explanation because it somehow 'limits' Palpatines abilities, as opposed to merely demostrating then.

Connor MacLeod wrote:There is also the not-so-minor fact they get ripped out of their mountings, which as Mike has noted for many other feats (IE ripping machinery from walls) can require significant TK efforts that can match or exceed the throwing effort.

As I said previously the only one that seems to be ripped from its mountings is the last Pod - the others appear to move out from their moorings rather sedately, without the screeching-metallic noise or the sparks that the last one displays.

Does the Ep3 novel discuss any of this? Its been too long since I've read it for me to recall.

Oh for fuck's sake. Its only easier in terms of the actual FORCE applied to achieve a task. You're flipping switches or buttons (or manipulating the circuitry directly or something weird like that.) But its not automatically easier, because that requires a SHITLOAD more fine control and coordination than the brute force application does. ESPECIALLY when we see Palpy manipulating Multiple pods at one time.

atg wrote: Does the Ep3 novel discuss any of this? Its been too long since I've read it for me to recall.

It just mentions pods and stuff being used by the force as battering objects. Its not very explicit.

BEsides which, there's still the goddamn OCcam's Razor bit. "fine manipulation of controls" is not automatically the easier feat to accomplish. Skill and dexterity/fine control can be as much of a problem as raw power.

Connor MacLeod wrote:There is also the fact Yoda with the last pod quite obviously "spins" the pod rapdily, the whole incident itself tending to lend more credence to the "brute force" approach rather than "fine control" (I find it hard tobelieve the pod has controls to "spin around in place rapidly")

I actually addressed this, by pointing out Yoda obviously exherted and tired himself before Palpatine did (with his demostrated mentally of brute force), and furthermore Palpatine chose to jump away from the incoming spinning pod despite the arguement of 'ease' by which he 'threw' all the other ones.

There is also the not-so-minor fact they get ripped out of their mountings, which as Mike has noted for many other feats (IE ripping machinery from walls) can require significant TK efforts that can match or exceed the throwing effort.

This assumes the pods didn't just get ripped from their moorings under their own engine power.

As I pointed out, if you are not concerned with damage or destruction of a vehicle, you can easily force it well beyond it's normal operating tolerances.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

atg wrote: Does the Ep3 novel discuss any of this? Its been too long since I've read it for me to recall.

It just mentions pods and stuff being used by the force as battering objects. Its not very explicit.

BEsides which, there's still the goddamn OCcam's Razor bit. "fine manipulation of controls" is not automatically the easier feat to accomplish. Skill and dexterity/fine control can be as much of a problem as raw power.

I'd like to reference Wong's observations in TPM:

Mike Wong wrote: Jedi Knights have much finer telekinetic control than was previously suspected. Although it had long been known that a Jedi Knight could easily lift and throw large, heavy objects such as starfighters or machinery components (as seen in TESB), it is a revelation that a Jedi Knight's control over the Force is fine enough that he could potentially clean out Las Vegas. The manipulation of Watto's chance cube may not seem stupendous compared to lifting starfighters or large boulders, but try to imagine waiting for a rolling, bouncing chance cube. Even if we assume that you are invisible (so no one will detect your movements) and already crouched down in position, you will have a lot of trouble making that cube look like it is naturally bouncing into the desired orientation.

Jedi Knights do not need a clear line of sight to the object they are manipulating. The droids knocked down by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon weren't merely knocked down- they were actually disabled, as described in the novelization and as seen in the film by the fact that they never got back up. Since their outer casings were undamaged, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon must have destroyed inner mechanisms without being able to see them through their casings.

Bubble Boy wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Bubble Boy wrote: Because operating the existing controls of a pod would be vastly easier than trying to move the pod around by brute force. When facing an opponent with equal capability, the more efficient you are with your energy reserves, the more likely you can get your opponent to tire before you do.

Repeating yourself does not make what you say true. How is it easier? It requires more concentration and more finesse.

So does driving a car as compared to physically pushing it around.

Guess which activity is easier?

Pushing the car. Don't be an idiot. Pushing something is vastly more simple then using a steering wheel, and operating a shifter as well a 3 separate pedals. Last time I checked, you actually needed practice and to take a test to get a license to drive a car. Don't think you need to do any of that to push it. Besides the point that we aren't talking about normal fucking people. The question you need to ask yourself is which one is easier for Palpatine. Operating the individual controls of a car to crash it into a wall or just pushing the whole thing into a wall.

In the context of the situation "When facing an opponent with equal capability" taking the time to operate the controls on MULTIPLE pods, when throwing them with brute Force works far quicker and easier, seems more like a waste then just using brute force.

That's like saying driving a car that requires the operating of a gas pedal, brake pedal and steering wheel is more difficult than getting behind the vehicle and pushing it where you want to go (or in this case, actually throwing it).

Oh for fuck's.... It IS more difficult. When you first learn to walk, hell, before that, you have the skill needed to push some thing. It is a matter of STRENGTH and FORCE. If we are talking about some one for whom throwing the car is child's play, WHICH WE ARE, then taking the time to operate the controls of a car is fucking stupid when you can just throw the whole fucking thing and get the same results.

Perhaps you can go try both ideas with your car and get back to us on which method gave you better results. Operating a car's controls with all that 'finesse', or physically pushing the car around.

You are dense. On top of what I have already said, you seem to be missing the fact that he is throwing MULTIPLE "cars" in the span of about a minute. Why would he take the time to operate the controls when he can, while laughing his ass off, just throw the whole damn thing with the same exact result.

Also we see Palpatine making giant throwing motions as the pods are hurtled through the air. Not exactly helping the subtle control manipulation argument.

Palpatine's hand gestures are as telling as Vader's lightsaber moving up and down when he threw objects at Luke in ESB. In other words, they mean very little other than just a physical expression of what they're trying to accomplish.

Then why isn't Palpatine making little flicking motions with his fingers like he did when he unlocked Luke's cuffs in ROTJ?, if all he is doing is operating switches and buttons, because that would be the "physical representation" of him doing that. Instead, he is making giant throwing motions... oh right, because he is "throwing" the pods at Yoda, not operating them and navigating them towards him.

Which is exactly what happened.

You have PROOF of this?

You missed the part were Yoda was tired and defeated now?

No, idiot...

Bubble Boy wrote:Because operating the existing controls of a pod would be vastly easier than trying to move the pod around by brute force. When facing an opponent with equal capability, the more efficient you are with your energy reserves, the more likely you can get your opponent to tire before you do.

Which is exactly what happened.

Please provide proof that your version is what happened, since it "is exactly what happened."

Feel free to explain why your explanation is superior to the one I've suggested.

First I didn't say it was superior, simply that it is what I observed. Second, if it is superior, it is because it is what we see on screen with out having to over complicate it.

Explain how driving a car is harder than physically pushing/throwing it around, or why the idea of driving a car without concern for it's destruction means you can manuever it in ways not intented by it's design.

Fuck. I'm not covering this again.

And? This doesn't refute the point, and it a excellent reason why he lost.

You are right. It does however establish a pattern with the two most powerful avatars of the light and dark side. Blunt use of their power over finesse and subtle manipulation as you claim, but we never see. Especially in the context of a battle.

Correction, I've pointed out how Yoda has repeatedly demostrated blunt application of Force power, and why this would be an excellent reason why he would lose to an opponent with far more efficient use of his power.

And yet you have failed to provide any proof other then repeating "Because I say so!!" over and over, that Palpatine is doing anything different then Yoda does.

I fail to see a single arguement or point of yours that contradicts or shows any flaw with the notion Palpatine manipulated the pod controls to achieve his feat of hurling them at Yoda.

It's not my job to disprove what you claim. It is your job to prove it. You have not.

It's quite obvious that manipulating the controls of the Senate pods via the Force would be vastly easier than simply hurling them physically at Yoda, as per my car example. Yoda has demostrated a blunt force mentally with his abilities, and Palpatine has demostrated the mentality of subtlety and more finesse with his actions and intentions.

This is a perfectly valid and good explanation as to why Palpatine defeated Yoda in a contest of Force power.

It seems to me you just don't like this potential explanation because it somehow 'limits' Palpatines abilities, as opposed to merely demostrating then.

I highlighted all your proof and evidence that proves your argument... oh wait.

Bubble Boy wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:

atg wrote: Does the Ep3 novel discuss any of this? Its been too long since I've read it for me to recall.

It just mentions pods and stuff being used by the force as battering objects. Its not very explicit.

BEsides which, there's still the goddamn OCcam's Razor bit. "fine manipulation of controls" is not automatically the easier feat to accomplish. Skill and dexterity/fine control can be as much of a problem as raw power.

I'd like to reference Wong's observations in TPM:

Mike Wong wrote: Jedi Knights have much finer telekinetic control than was previously suspected. Although it had long been known that a Jedi Knight could easily lift and throw large, heavy objects such as starfighters or machinery components (as seen in TESB), it is a revelation that a Jedi Knight's control over the Force is fine enough that he could potentially clean out Las Vegas. The manipulation of Watto's chance cube may not seem stupendous compared to lifting starfighters or large boulders, but try to imagine waiting for a rolling, bouncing chance cube. Even if we assume that you are invisible (so no one will detect your movements) and already crouched down in position, you will have a lot of trouble making that cube look like it is naturally bouncing into the desired orientation.

Jedi Knights do not need a clear line of sight to the object they are manipulating. The droids knocked down by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon weren't merely knocked down- they were actually disabled, as described in the novelization and as seen in the film by the fact that they never got back up. Since their outer casings were undamaged, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon must have destroyed inner mechanisms without being able to see them through their casings.

And this shows what exactly? That a Jedi has good control of small objects when not in battle in a completely calm setting. No fucking shit Sherlock. I already pointed out that Palpatine can do that with his cuff trick. We also see Obi-Wan opening locking mechanisms in doors. This does nothing to strengthen your position.
And as far as Mike's observations about Jedi while in battle, all it shows is that they can use their TK to break shit, without being able to see it. So? That still doesn't demonstrate any sort of fine control manipulation in a battle situation, it just shows that they can bend/break/damage the inner working parts to stop droids.
And this... appeal to authority, I think it is called, is BS. While Mike has a very respected opinion, his observations are far from an official source and still leaves you with zero proof for your position.

Bubble Boy wrote:

Sarevok wrote:Assuming Palpatine was manipulating the controls instead of flinging the pods with the power of the Force it raises the all important question.

Why the fuck would Senate pods be designed to fly spinning through air in a manner that puts speeders and Coruscant flying cars to shame ?

Did it ever occur to you that when the destruction of a vehicle is not a concern, you can very easily make it perform manuevers and motions it wasn't intented to?

I'd suggest you watch vehicle stunts and accidents for very enlightening examples.

Huh ? How does "can perform beyond" specification validate any arbitary actions ? A senate pod can be likened to a wheel chair, can a wheel chair peform a 30 meter leap like a stunt car ?

Bubble Boy wrote: I actually addressed this, by pointing out Yoda obviously exherted and tired himself before Palpatine did (with his demostrated mentally of brute force), and furthermore Palpatine chose to jump away from the incoming spinning pod despite the arguement of 'ease' by which he 'threw' all the other ones.

Tired himself out? In the movies, Yoda manages to successfully repel and return Palpy's Force lightning. The fact that he got knocked off the platform doesn't indicate he's tired. It just indicates he realized he could not truly defeat Palpatine in straight combat.

This assumes the pods didn't just get ripped from their moorings under their own engine power.

As I pointed out, if you are not concerned with damage or destruction of a vehicle, you can easily force it well beyond it's normal operating tolerances.

How many fucking assumptions do you intend to make? ARE you that fucking ignorant of Occam's Razor, or do you think you can just make shit up and have your theory automatically be better? I fail to see why you would assume Senate Pods are automatically capable of those feats, because I fail to see why "spinning rapidly in a circle" would be a legitimate design requirement, nevermind what they did when actually propelled. Unless you think they ran podraces on the Senate Floor in between sessions.

Nevermind your bullshit about the "fine control" - since that merely ADDS further assumptiosn to your pet theory. (IE Palpy can operate the controls of MULTIPLE Senate pods without line of sight, which requires assuming Palpatine has more than one ability.)

And while we're on the topic, I want to see proof to back up your evident claim that "fine manipulation" is actually far less taxing on a person than "brute force" would be. Simply saying "it requires less application of force to move the pod" is not sufficient justification, because it assumes concentration and coordination are simple/effortless feats that you seem to assume they are.