StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I'm curious as to whether or not there is a "happy in-between" in Star Wars between. When encountering a well-shielded planet the alternatives seem to be as follows:

1.) Have a large group (5+) ISD/SSD level capital ships bombard the planetary shield for an extended period of time till it eventually can no longer maintain its power generation. Destroy the source of the shield, and bombard, land, or BDZ at your leisure.

2.) Warp in a Death Star and punch through the planetary shield with a geocidal blast.


Would it be possible to tone-down the Death Star's blast to a non-lethal level and/or knock out the shield without touching the planet? How might the empire more efficiently deal with planetary shields?

-AHMAD

Isn't the mini superlaser on the Eclipse designed just for this purpose?

There are also torpedo spheres.

Superlaser platforms like the Eclipse and Tarkin seem to be designed for this.

Torpedo spheres exist solely to defeat planetary shields.

And a fleet of only five or so Star Destroyers is only enough to keep the planet's shield up for fear of orbital bombardment; it's not enough to take down the shield, but it is enough to lay siege to the planet and let it slowly starve to death.

Of course, that only works with worlds like Coruscant who get most or all of their consumables from off-world. Self-sufficient planets would continue with business as usual for as long as their shields could hold.

Not quite on topic, perhaps, but was the Hoth shield in TESB a full planetary shield or merely one protecting the general area around Base Echo? If it was the former, as the dialogue appeared to imply, how could the Empire land its battle group?

Swindle1984 wrote: Of course, that only works with worlds like Coruscant who get most or all of their consumables from off-world. Self-sufficient planets would continue with business as usual for as long as their shields could hold.

Well..... that really depends. The problem is environmental. How long could planetary shields be turned on without affecting ecology? Afterall, you're creating a shield that alters radiation and prevents impacts, if the shield is set too low in the atmosphere, you're going to alter air movements. There's also the issue of radiation and heating of the planet and whether the shield may act as a greenhouse effect.


Also, its also mentioned that shields are expensive and slow to raise, that suggest that there may be excessive waste heat and a large energy consumption. A steady bombardment , even if it doesn't penetrate the shield will also cause steady energy loss from moving heat out of the system and dumping it into space, so, power supplies may be another issue. Any planet with the wealth to maintain planetary shields will most probably not be energy self sufficient, especially when this is coupled with wartime necessities such as the need to power turbolasers and etc.

Darth Hoth wrote:Not quite on topic, perhaps, but was the Hoth shield in TESB a full planetary shield or merely one protecting the general area around Base Echo? If it was the former, as the dialogue appeared to imply, how could the Empire land its battle group?

It was a theatre shield. The Empire simply landed outside, then walked in through .

Not quite on topic, perhaps, but was the Hoth shield in TESB a full planetary shield or merely one protecting the general area around Base Echo?

It was only around the base, Veers landed his troops across a ravine and marched them in through the shield on their legs. (Why the Empire had no air support or hover vehicles)

Torpedo spheres exist solely to defeat planetary shields.

Apparently their powerful fleet assets as well, one kept control of the Corelian sector during the Warlord era and was keeping a rival warlord at bay who had a Super Star Destroyer leading his fleet.

And a fleet of only five or so Star Destroyers is only enough to keep the planet's shield up for fear of orbital bombardment

When the Lusankya broke out of Coruscant it broke a hole in Coruscants planetary shields. Both layers. Either shields are more vulnerable when receiving fire from the other side or Coruscants shield gird was ruined by the Rebel invasion or an SSD has the firepower to break planetary shields (contradicts pretty much all other sources on planetary shields)

PainRack wrote:

Darth Hoth wrote:Not quite on topic, perhaps, but was the Hoth shield in TESB a full planetary shield or merely one protecting the general area around Base Echo? If it was the former, as the dialogue appeared to imply, how could the Empire land its battle group?

It was a theatre shield. The Empire simply landed outside, then walked in through .

Good; that at least makes sense. I was asking because of the apparent discrepancies in the dialogue aboard the Executor immediately before the attack.

The following methods have been canonically used or intended to be used to overcome planetary shielding.

1. Force. Assemble a large enough fleet and blast away.

2. Specialized force. A torpedo sphere. Possibly superlasers could be used in this fashion, although it seems difficult to give it precisely enough power to just overcome the shielding. Collateral damage seems likely.

3. Subterfuge. Thrawn used this to trick the inhabitants into surrender and lower their shields.

4. The Force. Jacen Solo used mind control to make the Fondorians lower their shields.

5. Sabotage. Self-explanatory. This method was used on Caamas.

Darth Hoth wrote:

PainRack wrote:

Darth Hoth wrote:Not quite on topic, perhaps, but was the Hoth shield in TESB a full planetary shield or merely one protecting the general area around Base Echo? If it was the former, as the dialogue appeared to imply, how could the Empire land its battle group?

It was a theatre shield. The Empire simply landed outside, then walked in through .

Good; that at least makes sense. I was asking because of the apparent discrepancies in the dialogue aboard the Executor immediately before the attack.

What discrepancy?

General Veers wrote:My Lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Com Scan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth System. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.

(Emphasis Mine)

Also, people tend to treat planetary shields overly simplistically: they are either there or they are not. The highest-grade planetary defenses like Alderaan may be comprehensive and essentially invulnerable to all but Death Star-scale artillery requiring conventional siege and wait tactics in their absence (this strategic problem likely necessitated the development of Death Star battle stations). On the other hand, such a powerful defense is probably not necessary, cost-effective, or worth other drawbacks in most cases. There are certainly lower-grade shields, ranging all the way from low-grade planetary shields such as those knocked out by Lusankya in The Krytos Trap; the theater shield knocked out by Emancipator in Rogue Squadron; and to higher-intensity but limited-area shields such as the black market model deployed by the Alliance to Restore the Republic to protect their general headquarters base on Hoth VI, which was invulnerable to "any bombardment." Presumably that suggests a proof against bombardment by a large portion of DEATHRON (comprehending more than five one-mile Star Destroyers and a nineteen-kilometer Super Star Destroyer as well as large battleships and other Star Destroyers attached to attendant forces) and given the short duration for reinforcements to be called in in a hyperdrive-equipped galactic navy, probably proof against significantly greater.

Since the entire objective was to capture as much of the rebel leaders alive as possible, especially Luke Skywalker, simply obliterating the entire base from orbit wasn't an option. It's likely that when Veers described the shield as being able to withstand "any bombardment", he meant anything they could use to take the shield down without causing collateral damage to the base itself.

That was my interpretation, anyway. Your mileage may vary.

Swindle1984 wrote:Since the entire objective was to capture as much of the rebel leaders alive as possible, especially Luke Skywalker, simply obliterating the entire base from orbit wasn't an option. It's likely that when Veers described the shield as being able to withstand "any bombardment", he meant anything they could use to take the shield down without causing collateral damage to the base itself.

That was my interpretation, anyway. Your mileage may vary.

What? How can you interpret it that way? "withstand ANY bombardment". Not "withstand all but our most powerful bombardments".

If bombardment wasn't the intended purpose of the mission, then why wouldn't they have brought air-fighters - similar to those employed by the rebel pilots - in addition to the walkers?

As in, if they weren't able to employ bombardment for risk of collateral damage, then why was Vader so upset about the shield going up? They would have had to land and march either way, no?

-AHMAD

Darth Tanner wrote:It was only around the base, Veers landed his troops across a ravine and marched them in through the shield on their legs. (Why the Empire had no air support or hover vehicles)

If you're questioning why the Empire had no repulsorcraft at Hoth, it would appear that you need to be physically grounded in order to pass through, since the TradeFed's AAT's and MTT's ceased to move through the Gungan's shield until a highpower blaster shot knocked out the generators on those Fambaa's.

Swindle1984 wrote:Of course, that only works with worlds like Coruscant who get most or all of their consumables from off-world. Self-sufficient planets would continue with business as usual for as long as their shields could hold.

What's "self-sufficient" look like for a SW planet, though? Unless it's a committed farm world, I'd think that most planets have ballooned in population due to the availability of crops throughout the galaxy to the point where the line between self-sufficient and death by siege isn't where most leaders would like it to be. Unless fantastic agricultural tech exists that can allow a population of dozens of billions to persist on whatever spate of land remains, I'd think that only farm worlds could afford to wait out a siege - and how many of them have Alderaan-level shields?

havokeff wrote:What? How can you interpret it that way?

He interpreted it that way when he said:

Swindle1984 wrote:Since the entire objective was to capture as much of the rebel leaders alive as possible, especially Luke Skywalker, simply obliterating the entire base from orbit wasn't an option.

He is saying that the mission called for the capture of leaders, such as Luke, Leia, Han, etc etc. Well, you can't capture people if you simply bomb the base into slag. So what he is saying is that when they said "withstand any bombardment" he meant they will "withstand any bombardment we can dish out without leveling the place and killing everyone, which we dont want to do." Which makes sense to me. I mean, how big was that reactor that was power the shield generator? It cant be as big as the reactors on the ISDs, or even the Executors, so it wouldnt make sense if that little thing could take the fleets level of firepower (I heard that Executors where exoton firepower?)

BountyHunterSAx wrote:As in, if they weren't able to employ bombardment for risk of collateral damage, then why was Vader so upset about the shield going up? They would have had to land and march either way, no?

Yes. But having to fly all the way to the edge of the shield, then march all the way to the base, takes lots of time, time which the Rebels could use to either dig in or pack up and leave.

If the shield didnt go up, they could have simply landed right at the base.

TithonusSyndrome wrote:[What's "self-sufficient" look like for a SW planet, though? Unless it's a committed farm world, I'd think that most planets have ballooned in population due to the availability of crops throughout the galaxy -snip-

Well, it's possible that non-traditional food production (from as simple as hydroponics to as exotic as vat-synthesized nutrients) could pick up the some of the slack. And water, of course, is easy. If the infrastructure to convert reactor power to edible calories is there, the energy requirements for food production should be small compared to powering shields, weapons, etc.

Coruscant, which looks like it should be more vulnerable to this kind of siege than most planets, was on lock-down for a significant amount of time during Thrawn's offensive.

Darth Ruinus wrote:
Yes. But having to fly all the way to the edge of the shield, then march all the way to the base, takes lots of time,

If the shield didnt go up, they could have simply landed right at the base.

I just had a scene run through my head

VADER. "HoooooooKUUUh, HooooooooKuuuH.... YOU MEAN WE HAVE TO WALK??"

Guess I have been watching too much blue harvest

Darth Ruinus wrote:I mean, how big was that reactor that was power the shield generator?

Big enough to power an ion cannon powerful enough to disable a SD. We don't necessarily see the full extent of the reactors or shield generators; the structure the AT-AT destroyed may merely be one component of it. Various EU books (eg Vision of the Future) describe base-stations responsible for (relatively) small sections of planetary shields; perhaps the AT-AT destroyed one such station. Alternately, destroying a significant component of an interconnected system could easily disable the whole system, even if the component is small relative to the whole system.

Darth Ruinus wrote:So what he is saying is that when they said "withstand any bombardment" he meant they will "withstand any bombardment we can dish out without leveling the place and killing everyone, which we dont want to do."

Why say it that way, then? Why not present the options, destroy the shield from space and risk killing their leaders or waste time, lose the initiative, and risk casualties by landing and marching in. Given Vader's tendancy to kill people who displease him, I would let him make the hard stategic/political decision.

Swindle1984 wrote:Since the entire objective was to capture as much of the rebel leaders alive as possible, especially Luke Skywalker, simply obliterating the entire base from orbit wasn't an option. It's likely that when Veers described the shield as being able to withstand "any bombardment", he meant anything they could use to take the shield down without causing collateral damage to the base itself.

That was my interpretation, anyway. Your mileage may vary.

Your definition of "any" is quite novel. I do not think GEN Veers really meant, "The shield will deflect any bombardment aside from the bombardment that will work."

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Swindle1984 wrote:Since the entire objective was to capture as much of the rebel leaders alive as possible, especially Luke Skywalker, simply obliterating the entire base from orbit wasn't an option. It's likely that when Veers described the shield as being able to withstand "any bombardment", he meant anything they could use to take the shield down without causing collateral damage to the base itself.

That was my interpretation, anyway. Your mileage may vary.

Your definition of "any" is quite novel. I do not think GEN Veers really meant, "The shield will deflect any bombardment aside from the bombardment that will work."

That's why Vader said "A clean bombardment is impossible through their energy field."

TithonusSyndrome wrote:What's "self-sufficient" look like for a SW planet, though? Unless it's a committed farm world, I'd think that most planets have ballooned in population due to the availability of crops throughout the galaxy to the point where the line between self-sufficient and death by siege isn't where most leaders would like it to be. Unless fantastic agricultural tech exists that can allow a population of dozens of billions to persist on whatever spate of land remains, I'd think that only farm worlds could afford to wait out a siege - and how many of them have Alderaan-level shields?

Except it doesn't appear that many worlds in SW have populations that high, with many sporting only a few key cities and a population less than that of modern Earth. Most ancestral homeworlds aren't even as developed as one would expect (the likely cause being the relative swiftness with which cheap FTL travel was developed). The only planets and moons that seem to run at maximum capacity or beyond are those that are relevant on a galactic scale.

Swiftness? The galaxy was explored and colonized out to Csilla in the Unknown Regions pre-FTL. Hundreds of thousands of years of pre-FTL development.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Swiftness? The galaxy was explored and colonized out to Csilla in the Unknown Regions pre-FTL. Hundreds of thousands of years of pre-FTL development.

By humans, you mean? It's my understanding that most of the galaxy's sapient species were discovered by and integrated into the Old Republic relatively recently; at a pre-FTL stage in their own development. Otherwise, I'm at a loss to explain why (with a few exceptions) most ancestral homeworlds look so underdeveloped. Unless only humans breed like rabbits and spread like bacteria.