StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Darth Wong wrote:

Axiomatic wrote:I have to ask, though, if utter backwaters are five minutes' drive from the center of galactic commerce and industry, how can they be as backwatery as they are presented? I mean, that way, it should be possible for someone to start every day by waking up on Tattooine, getting on a spacebus to Coruscant where they work in a supermarket, and then getting on another bus back to Tattooine in the evening.

It's more like a few hours travel AFAIK, not five minutes. And in a few hours, using a modern plane, you could travel quite a long way relative to real-life centres of population.

Maybe, but, on the other hand, they had quite a few millennia to bring the backwater planets to the same level. Our civilization has only put our heart in such things a couple of centuries ago (in some respects, it might be decades), and the progress doesn't seem to be so bad. At least, I can't remember a society which now, like Tatooine in the Republic times, has legalized slavery.

Omeganian wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

Axiomatic wrote:I have to ask, though, if utter backwaters are five minutes' drive from the center of galactic commerce and industry, how can they be as backwatery as they are presented? I mean, that way, it should be possible for someone to start every day by waking up on Tattooine, getting on a spacebus to Coruscant where they work in a supermarket, and then getting on another bus back to Tattooine in the evening.

It's more like a few hours travel AFAIK, not five minutes. And in a few hours, using a modern plane, you could travel quite a long way relative to real-life centres of population.

Maybe, but, on the other hand, they had quite a few millennia to bring the backwater planets to the same level. Our civilization has only put our heart in such things a couple of centuries ago (in some respects, it might be decades), and the progress doesn't seem to be so bad. At least, I can't remember a society which now, like Tatooine in the Republic times, has legalized slavery.

We've had two thousand years to bring every single isolated settlement in all of Europe and Africa to at least the level of organization of ancient Rome, never mind modern cities. Why haven't we done it? Why are there still isolated backwaters? Ponder this question, and you will see how silly your reasoning is.

Darth Wong wrote: We've had two thousand years to bring every single isolated settlement in all of Europe and Africa to at least the level of organization of ancient Rome, never mind modern cities. Why haven't we done it? Why are there still isolated backwaters? Ponder this question, and you will see how silly your reasoning is.

Well, in case of the Republic, we are dealing with a society which should be in all moral respects at least as high as modern developed countries (which are not quite idle in that respect), and which deals with territories under the same government. Besides, it was noted here that the far parts of the Republic are within several hours (a few days at most) of the Core, and have been for millennia. Earth has only reached that level a few decades ago.

Omeganian wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: We've had two thousand years to bring every single isolated settlement in all of Europe and Africa to at least the level of organization of ancient Rome, never mind modern cities. Why haven't we done it? Why are there still isolated backwaters? Ponder this question, and you will see how silly your reasoning is.

Well, in case of the Republic, we are dealing with a society which should be in all moral respects at least as high as modern developed countries (which are not quite idle in that respect), and which deals with territories under the same government. Besides, it was noted here that the far parts of the Republic are within several hours (a few days at most) of the Core, and have been for millennia. Earth has only reached that level a few decades ago.

Even in a galaxy as advanced as SW...there is this thing called limited supply and demand. I could go into a litany of economics but if you cannot grasp it on such a small scale as our planet not being able to raise the standard of living in every corner to the level ancient Rome, it's wasting bandwidth

So again, think about it and try to make a rebuttal instead of regurgitating your reply in different words.

Well, in case of the Republic, we are dealing with a society which should be in all moral respects at least as high as modern developed countries (which are not quite idle in that respect), and which deals with territories under the same government. Besides, it was noted here that the far parts of the Republic are within several hours (a few days at most) of the Core, and have been for millennia. Earth has only reached that level a few decades ago.

Getting there is not the only thing that is required to raise living standards.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Omeganian wrote:

Darth Wong wrote: We've had two thousand years to bring every single isolated settlement in all of Europe and Africa to at least the level of organization of ancient Rome, never mind modern cities. Why haven't we done it? Why are there still isolated backwaters? Ponder this question, and you will see how silly your reasoning is.

Well, in case of the Republic, we are dealing with a society which should be in all moral respects at least as high as modern developed countries (which are not quite idle in that respect), and which deals with territories under the same government. Besides, it was noted here that the far parts of the Republic are within several hours (a few days at most) of the Core, and have been for millennia. Earth has only reached that level a few decades ago.

Even in a galaxy as advanced as SW...there is this thing called limited supply and demand. I could go into a litany of economics but if you cannot grasp it on such a small scale as our planet not being able to raise the standard of living in every corner to the level ancient Rome, it's wasting bandwidth

So again, think about it and try to make a rebuttal instead of regurgitating your reply in different words.

Well, the impression I am getting from SD.net is that there can be no shortage in the SW Galaxy. Plenty of asteroids to mine, plenty of worlds and space stations for hydroponics, plenty of transport. Can nothing of all this be spared? Is such help against the principles of the government and the Jedi Order?

Well, the impression I am getting from SD.net is that there can be no shortage in the SW Galaxy. Plenty of asteroids to mine, plenty of worlds and space stations for hydroponics, plenty of transport. Can nothing of all this be spared? Is such help against the principles of the government and the Jedi Order?

They can't and don't have to help every backwater world there is.

This debate is pointless.

Omeganian wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

Omeganian wrote: Well, in case of the Republic, we are dealing with a society which should be in all moral respects at least as high as modern developed countries (which are not quite idle in that respect), and which deals with territories under the same government. Besides, it was noted here that the far parts of the Republic are within several hours (a few days at most) of the Core, and have been for millennia. Earth has only reached that level a few decades ago.

Even in a galaxy as advanced as SW...there is this thing called limited supply and demand. I could go into a litany of economics but if you cannot grasp it on such a small scale as our planet not being able to raise the standard of living in every corner to the level ancient Rome, it's wasting bandwidth

So again, think about it and try to make a rebuttal instead of regurgitating your reply in different words.

Well, the impression I am getting from SD.net is that there can be no shortage in the SW Galaxy. Plenty of asteroids to mine, plenty of worlds and space stations for hydroponics, plenty of transport. Can nothing of all this be spared? Is such help against the principles of the government and the Jedi Order?

You cannot be this fucking stupid. But there it is in all its digital glory.

Okay, for the dumbass here.

Why should there be any devotion to raise the standard of living to a shithole that will consume an enormous amount of resources when those SAME resources can be used elsewhere for better reasons?

This is a basic fucking economics 101 drill. And if you cannot get your tiny fucking brain around it, get off the goddamn board and into a fucking school to learn this shit.

Zixinus wrote:They can't and don't have to help every backwater world there is.

That is one thing I will never agree with.

Omeganian wrote:

Zixinus wrote:They can't and don't have to help every backwater world there is.

That is one thing I will never agree with.

This isn't a fucking matter of opinion, you ignorant fucking retard.

There is LIMITED supply. You do what one can with limited supply to service what is best for everyone.

If you cannot grasp this, you are more ignorant then most of your fucking posts indicate.

Also factor in that the Hutts rule many of those backwater and faraway worlds. Given the references in TPM and the new CW trailer, the Hutts have both political as well as military clout. They don't want you there, you don't go there.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Omeganian wrote:

Zixinus wrote:They can't and don't have to help every backwater world there is.

That is one thing I will never agree with.

This isn't a fucking matter of opinion, you ignorant fucking retard.

There is LIMITED supply. You do what one can with limited supply to service what is best for everyone.

If you cannot grasp this, you are more ignorant then most of your fucking posts indicate.

What limits the supply, exactly? The hundred billion solar systems to draw resources from? The hundred billion solar systems to build ships from their resources for transporting? The hundred billion solar systems to build work droids from their resources? The quadrillions of people with probably many trillions who have high enough morals to go and help a backward planet?

"Is such help against the principles of the government and the Jedi Order?"

- Yes. They don't make it their business to interfere with the Hutts. Renegade (which is to say, apolitical roaming, rather than fallen from the order's ideals) Jedi like Nico Diath interfered in Hutt Space, but that's about it. The Republic never seemed to have both the might and political will to invade the Hutts; the Empire, on the other hand, may well have (officially at least) used a programme of improving conditions as part of their justification.

Of course, it should be noted that aside form the slaves, they're not that badly off on Tatooine. Biggs went to an Imperial Military Academy, Luke planned to. By selling his speeder (not the Family's best!), Luke was an appreciable percentage of the way to affording his own starship.

It's not unreasonable to assume that most ordinary (free) people on Tatooine can get passage to somewhere better if they've a real reason to try their luck elsewhere. Luke could. Biggs could...

Omeganian wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

Omeganian wrote: That is one thing I will never agree with.

This isn't a fucking matter of opinion, you ignorant fucking retard.

There is LIMITED supply. You do what one can with limited supply to service what is best for everyone.

If you cannot grasp this, you are more ignorant then most of your fucking posts indicate.

What limits the supply, exactly? The hundred billion solar systems to draw resources from? The hundred billion solar systems to build ships from their resources for transporting? The hundred billion solar systems to build work droids from their resources? The quadrillions of people with probably many trillions who have high enough morals to go and help a backward planet?

Holy shit, you are this fucking dumb.

What limits supply?

What about the amount the current population's DEMANDS. They are all still there and they are constantly draining the limited supply pool. Are you honestly this fucking ignorant of supply and demand?

And then upgrading a shithole? Take a real world example of funneling billions of dollars just to elevate said shithole to Roman levels in terms of food and industry and hoping the nutball politics do not destroy said infrastructure in the year.

So which is the more favorable action? Using said billions to help stablize an area with infrastructure or build a new one and hope a return in your investment in a possible 30-40 years....if everything remains stable.

So I ask you again, provide something to demonstrate this can be done or shut the fuck up because you are literally mindlessly parroting and have not even made anything beyond a personal supposition of how your inane economics work.

That is one thing I will never agree with.

That does not make it any less or more valid.

Ghost Rider wrote: What limits supply?

What about the amount the current population's DEMANDS. They are all still there and they are constantly draining the limited supply pool. Are you honestly this fucking ignorant of supply and demand?

There is hardly a limited supply pool with not one percent of the planets inhabited. There is limited production, which can be increased with proper use of droids. A surplus can be created. Redirect the surplus to the backward planets. It will take time, it will take some tries, but what else is a Republic to do during millennia of unbroken peace? How will it look to the people if the Republic doesn't help its own members???

Ghost Rider wrote: And then upgrading a shithole? Take a real world example of funneling billions of dollars just to elevate said shithole to Roman levels in terms of food and industry and hoping the nutball politics do not destroy said infrastructure in the year.

A twenty thousand year old Republic can afford long term programs. Send in a few million volunteers, send teachers, a few thousand qualified officials of your own to oversee the process (maybe even a couple of Jedi from time to time, in order to prevent abuse).

Ghost Rider wrote:So which is the more favorable action? Using said billions to help stablize an area with infrastructure or build a new one and hope a return in your investment in a possible 30-40 years....if everything remains stable.

In the twenty millennia old Republic, with millennia of unbroken peace, there is no reason to believe something will not remain stable, or for a citizen to conceive something else. The areas are stabilized. Why not do a little philanthropy (with proper planning, of course, but then, you have someone who can see possibilities)?

Ghost Rider wrote: So I ask you again, provide something to demonstrate this can be done or shut the fuck up because you are literally mindlessly parroting and have not even made anything beyond a personal supposition of how your inane economics work.

What exactly do you want me to provide? Does the economical help has no effect at all on the developing countries? Was there no improvement at all in the last century? Can you give me one country in the world that still has 60-70% child mortality? You just need to approach the matter smartly. There is a long way to go, yes, but in a few centuries, I have difficulty believing it will remain on the same level, not to mention ten times that.

Besides, I have some difficulty believing that the series officially announced as the best ever, spoke nonsense in this manner.

Omeganian wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: What limits supply?

What about the amount the current population's DEMANDS. They are all still there and they are constantly draining the limited supply pool. Are you honestly this fucking ignorant of supply and demand?

There is hardly a limited supply pool with not one percent of the planets inhabited. There is limited production, which can be increased with proper use of droids. A surplus can be created. Redirect the surplus to the backward planets. It will take time, it will take some tries, but what else is a Republic to do during millennia of unbroken peace? How will it look to the people if the Republic doesn't help its own members???

Oh, and you are showing me...oh wait no proof.

So you literally pulled statistics out your ass to prove YOUR assertion.

Hint, one doesn't make a conclusion and then find data. One looks at data and makes a conclusion.

Omeganian wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: And then upgrading a shithole? Take a real world example of funneling billions of dollars just to elevate said shithole to Roman levels in terms of food and industry and hoping the nutball politics do not destroy said infrastructure in the year.

A twenty thousand year old Republic can afford long term programs. Send in a few million volunteers, send teachers, a few thousand qualified officials of your own to oversee the process (maybe even a couple of Jedi from time to time, in order to prevent abuse).

Again, they have the available resource just to waste because of what again?

Oh wait, your personal assertion, pulled straight from the depths of your ass.

Omeganian wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:So which is the more favorable action? Using said billions to help stablize an area with infrastructure or build a new one and hope a return in your investment in a possible 30-40 years....if everything remains stable.

In the twenty millennia old Republic, with millennia of unbroken peace, there is no reason to believe something will not remain stable, or for a citizen to conceive something else. The areas are stabilized. Why not do a little philanthropy (with proper planning, of course, but then, you have someone who can see possibilities)?

Wow, and the Hutts, the Trade Federation and the other numerous other organizations that have cause strife within each of the SW films, easily show that stablization is equal throughout the OR, correct?

You should pry your head from your ass and actually watch and read the shit your are debating about.

Omeganian wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: So I ask you again, provide something to demonstrate this can be done or shut the fuck up because you are literally mindlessly parroting and have not even made anything beyond a personal supposition of how your inane economics work.

What exactly do you want me to provide? Does the economical help has no effect at all on the developing countries? Was there no improvement at all in the last century? Can you give me one country in the world that still has 60-70% child mortality? You just need to approach the matter smartly. There is a long way to go, yes, but in a few centuries, I have difficulty believing it will remain on the same level, not to mention ten times that.

Besides, I have some difficulty believing that the series officially announced as the best ever, spoke nonsense in this manner.

Have you ever looked at the level of African economic data over the last ten years? Literally look at Zimbabwe as a prime example of how bad it can turn into, let alone countries like Somalia and such not. And they are the popular ones.

You truly have demonstrated for SW, you presume everything without showing proof.

As for real world economics a hideous or naive grasp of what is.

And in a few centuries everyone will be raised to what level? You are just arbitraly picking some unknown variable when we still have stunning levels of poverty in fucking First World countries let alone Third World.

So fucking actually go outside and fucking learn before spewing random assertions that fifth graders understand about supply and demand.

Oh for the love of the...

Tatoine is a backwater, poor planet. Because that's what it is intended to be. It can't be upbringed from poverty, because that would defeat the purpose of it being a backwater planet!

Tatooine is supposed to be a place to show the humble origins of the great heroes of the Republic.

It will take time, it will take some tries, but what else is a Republic to do during millennia of unbroken peace?

I donnu... prevent wars, uphold the stability of the galaxy, ensure safety between members? There is a shitload of thing happening in the galaxy, its a headache to uphold itself, nevermind uplifting backwater planets.

How will it look to the people if the Republic doesn't help its own members???

Tatoine is not a member planet you moron! Remember Episode 1? They junk store owner didn't accept Republican money!

A twenty thousand year old Republic can afford long term programs. Send in a few million volunteers, send teachers, a few thousand qualified officials of your own to oversee the process (maybe even a couple of Jedi from time to time, in order to prevent abuse).

Simple question: Why would it do that?

In the twenty millennia old Republic, with millennia of unbroken peace, there is no reason to believe something will not remain stable, or for a citizen to conceive something else. The areas are stabilized.

What makes you think that there nothing going on in a government that oversees a significant part of the galaxy? The only time we saw the Republic was when it was fighting againts another powerful alliance!

What exactly do you want me to provide?

SILENCE OF YOUR IGNORANCE!

SILENCE OF YOUR IGNORANCE!

Actually, in retrospect, scratch that.

Rather:

SILENCE OF YOUR STUPID LOGIC!

In-universe, the Hutts infest it, they don't like too much interference in their business.

Out of universe, your explanation works. In universe, it is just silly.

Because it was not an in-universe explanation.

Omeganian wrote:There is hardly a limited supply pool with not one percent of the planets inhabited.

The fact that resources exist does not mean they cost nothing to extract.

There is limited production, which can be increased with proper use of droids.

Only by increasing the droid:human ratio, which means fewer human overseers and managers by proportion, which means more independent-processing droids by necessity. That's dangerous.

A twenty thousand year old Republic can afford long term programs.

The fact that you can afford it doesn't mean you'll do it. The United States could afford to forcibly construct a huge metropolis in the remote mountain regions of Montana. They don't do it because there's no point.

What the fuck do you not understand about this? Tatooine is a worthless shithole. Why the FUCK would the Republic spend the money to upgrade it, when there's no incentive to do so?

Do you not understand that people and governments do things because they serve their needs and interests? Not just because they CAN?

Destructionator XIII wrote:"I'm sorry, Senator. If we give them money, then from where would our humble heroes come to save us from the evil galactic empire who might come at some unknown time in the future?"

Heh, this is too amusing to not add too. How about,
"Oh no! The Evil Galactic Empire is *gasp* putting money into improving the Galaxy's backwaters! Their so called 'Fight Against Poverty' is just a cover for eliminating likely sources of intrepid heroes!"

Destructionator XIII wrote:"Tatooine isn't in the greatest shape. This Senator feels we should do something about it. It would cost is $100 trillion a year, which we could absorb into the budget by raising taxes 1/1000 of a cent per year across all brackets. The population wouldn't even notice the tax hike."

"My esteemed colleague wants to raise taxes across the board. Well I, and the people of Richasshole IV who I represent, say that the common being already pays to much in taxes without trying to build bridges on some desert planet nobody's ever heard of."

Has it been pointed out yet that Qui-gon or Obi-wan could have come back later and freed Anakin's mom, or any of the other slaves, and yet they didn't?