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I would like to ask, just how canonic is Yavin IV being a major rebel base? Because I encountered a text which attempted to prove it was not, and the points there seem quite valid.

Omeganian wrote:I would like to ask, just how canonic is Yavin IV being a major rebel base? Because I encountered a text which attempted to prove it was not, and the points there seem quite valid.

Well, since virtually the entire military and political leadership of the Alliance to Restore the Republic as well as various dignitaries was present at the Yavin IV base as per the novelization, I'd say that it was a "major rebel base".

What text have you read?

Mange wrote: Well, since virtually the entire military and political leadership of the Alliance to Restore the Republic as well as various dignitaries was present at the Yavin IV base as per the novelization, I'd say that it was a "major rebel base".

I only saw a mention of a "small group" of allied senators and generals. Not an actual part of the Rebellion, and not likely to be allowed into a secret major base. After the victory, maybe a few V.I.P.'s arrived for celebrations.

As for the text, it is written in Russian. The points are as follows:


1) In the movie, Yavin IV was never referred to as the main base

2) Vader complained no one but Leia could bring him to the secret Rebel base.

3) Seems a lot of people knew about it, including Biggs - no major guy in the Rebellion and a rather fresh one. According to the cut scenes, a couple of days ago he, while possessing the knowledge about the base, talked about his views with a friend on an imperial planet.

4) The base had computers which analyzed within a couple of hours the plans of a 160 km station, and found a weakness.

5) No defenses. a very small number of fighters, and for those there were no pilots - rookies were used, like Luke.

6) During the celebrations, there was no lack of pilots.

The conclusion made by the writer is - Yavin IV was used for checking backgrounds of recruits (hence the computers) and training, checking received equipment, for meetings with interested politicians, and as a transit base. Any kind of major force was away, and only arrived in time for celebrations.

If it wasn't a major base of the Rebel Alliance, then destroying it would hardly have "crushed the Rebellion with one swift stroke."

Terralthra wrote:If it wasn't a major base of the Rebel Alliance, then destroying it would hardly have "crushed the Rebellion with one swift stroke."

Where does it say that, exactly?

Terralthra wrote:Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope

Could you give the exact place, and the exact wording showing exactly they were talking about Yavin IV, and not another base?

Omeganian wrote:

Terralthra wrote:If it wasn't a major base of the Rebel Alliance, then destroying it would hardly have "crushed the Rebellion with one swift stroke."

Where does it say that, exactly?

Dude, have you even watched ANH? Hints that the base is of major importance to the Alliance is given throughout the movie. In fact, the entire plot involving the Empire is to find the secret base.

EDIT:

Omeganian wrote:

Terralthra wrote:Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope

Could you give the exact place, and the exact wording showing exactly they were talking about Yavin IV, and not another base?

They're obviously talking about the main base which the base on Yavin IV was. What more do you need?

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote:This bickering is pointless. Lord Vader will provide us with the location of the Rebel fortress by the time this station is operational. We will then crush the Rebellion with one swift stroke.

As they are orbiting Yavin:

Darth Vader wrote:This will be a day long remembered. It has seen the end of Kenobi and it will soon see the end of the Rebellion.

Yes, the Empire was looking for a secret and important Rebel base. But how do we know Leia was stupid enough to go right there with the Empire on her heels, and not to some other, less secret and less important base?

To play Devil's Advocate: Those are all said by Imperials, who are not in a position to know jack shit about the relative importance of Yavin 4. Consider Leia was already suspicion about their escape from the death star. Its possible that rather go to the main rebel base she decided to go to some second string back up. Which the Empire then finds by tracking her and assumes is the main rebel base. Hence their statements.

Omeganian wrote:Yes, the Empire was looking for a secret and important Rebel base. But how do we know Leia was stupid enough to go right there with the Empire on her heels, and not to some other, less secret and less important base?

We've already given you the reasons why! Watch the movie, read the novelization and the screenplay for crying out loud. Do you think she was going to some second-rate refueling base to have the Death Star plans analyzed?

Mange wrote:

Omeganian wrote:Yes, the Empire was looking for a secret and important Rebel base. But how do we know Leia was stupid enough to go right there with the Empire on her heels, and not to some other, less secret and less important base?

We've already given you the reasons why! :roll: Watch the movie, read the novelization and the screenplay for crying out loud. Do you think she was going to some second-rate refueling base to have the Death Star plans analyzed?

Why not? Why can't a second-rate base have first-rate computers? It will have to analyze people and equipment? before allowing it through to the main base. And then, simply transmit the DS weakness to the main forces with a good enough code.

I have to say, some good points have been made here. It's really the EU that fills in the gaps, suggesting that General Dodonna is *the* military head of the Alliance. The EU also can't seem to decide whether the 30 fighters at Yavin were the bulk of the Rebel forces at the time or not.

But just going by the movies, you could make the point that Mon Mothma is off somewhere else with the Rebel fleet we see in RotJ, and that Leia, who clearly knows they are being tracked, would not bring the Death Star to *the* most important base, but rather one that might have the computing power and the firepower to destroy the DS.

Assuming Yavin IV is where all the Rebels are, this late in the Galactic Civil War, is sort of the ultimate minimalism. I'm sure they had a period of explosive expansion after the Battle of Yavin, but it's hard to imagine what they were doing beforehand if all they had was sympathy in the Senate and a fleet that pirates would laugh at.

From what I remember of the novelization, they have cruisers at this point, but they know their cruisers would only get annihilated by the Death Star's defenses. Since those defenses were geared towards combating capital ships, they send the snubfighters instead.

Terralthra wrote:From what I remember of the novelization, they have cruisers at this point, but they know their cruisers would only get annihilated by the Death Star's defenses. Since those defenses were geared towards combating capital ships, they send the snubfighters instead.

They talked about large ships being useless, but I don't remember anything said about their presence or absence at Yavin IV/

About the fighters - look at the number of those. A laughable 32. And the pilot shortage.

Was there not some videogame that said part of the Rebel fleet was held in reserve behind the Yavin moon?

In any case, why is it unreasonable to assume that the secret main Rebel base was not very fortified? Its main defence was stealth, after all, and the fewer people who knew of it and starships that ferried materiel to it, the less would be the chance of the Empire tracing it that way. That this policy would change when it became apparent that the Princess was captured and would likely reveal it, then starting instead to prepare for battle, would still be logical and explain why even green recruits were brought in: Actual battle-scale armament of Yavin IV began late and was by then quite hurried. Other Rebel assets may well have been concentrated elsewhere, but too far away to respond, while Darklighter and company could.

Interesting
I tried to find evidence against this theory.
In the screenplay (Annotated screenplay) it was only (and consistently) referred as 'Massassi outpost'. I found only at the beginning of chapter 13 (the last chapter) of the novelization it referred as the Alliance HQ. But I have only the Hungarian translation of the novelization, so someone should check the original source.

vakundok wrote:Interesting
I tried to find evidence against this theory.
In the screenplay (Annotated screenplay) it was only (and consistently) referred as 'Massassi outpost'. I found only at the beginning of chapter 13 (the last chapter) of the novelization it referred as the Alliance HQ. But I have only the Hungarian translation of the novelization, so someone should check the original source.

Yes, it's stated in the translated version I have as well. I was hesitant to point it as it's a translation, but with the Hungarian translation in mind, it seems correct.

Anguirus wrote:I have to say, some good points have been made here. It's really the EU that fills in the gaps, suggesting that General Dodonna is *the* military head of the Alliance. The EU also can't seem to decide whether the 30 fighters at Yavin were the bulk of the Rebel forces at the time or not.

But just going by the movies, you could make the point that Mon Mothma is off somewhere else with the Rebel fleet we see in RotJ, and that Leia, who clearly knows they are being tracked, would not bring the Death Star to *the* most important base, but rather one that might have the computing power and the firepower to destroy the DS.

Assuming Yavin IV is where all the Rebels are, this late in the Galactic Civil War, is sort of the ultimate minimalism. I'm sure they had a period of explosive expansion after the Battle of Yavin, but it's hard to imagine what they were doing beforehand if all they had was sympathy in the Senate and a fleet that pirates would laugh at.

I thought that at this point, the Rebels had yet to muster their assets into a single spot. Considering the size of the galaxy, sympathetic forces could be spread thinly all over the place (at their respective homeworlds or hiding in places like Hoth) without ever attracting Imperial attention.

That doesn't mean that Yavin IV wasn't important. If enough Rebel leadership was there, killing them all would prevent those sympathetic to the rebel cause from getting together in RotJ.

Yavin may also have been merely a headquarters for just one member of the Alliance. In light of a lot of the points raised in this thread, it doesn't seem inconceivable that maybe Dodonna was the direct commander of one cell of the Rebellion, possibly a particularly influential or symbolic branch. The Empire might have expected that destroying the cell to which the Organa family and Dodonna belonged could have disastrous repercussions throughout the rest of the Rebellion, effectively ending it. Perhaps by neutralizing the Senate they expected resistance from people like bel Iblis or Mon Mothma to be effectively ended without military leaders like Dodonna.

The base is depicted throughout the movie as at least a major base, and I don't think that can really be argued with. As to whether it was THE Alliance HQ, that's really a bit nonsensical given the guerrilla nature of the Rebels. What terrorist/freedom fighter group is stupid enough to have a central HQ?

On the other hand Omeganian, some of your arguments don't even make sense. Concerning the computers, given SW technology I'm sure such computers are hardly uncommon. And besides, their being powerful would be in favour of it being the HQ, not against.

You're points conflict. So Vader complains about the high level of secrecy, but also there's really lax secrecy because Biggs knew? What? There were no pilots, but there were lots of pilots? Eh?

The conclusions are random and pretty baseless. What possible grounds are there for the conclusion that the base is for 'checking the background of recruits'? That's just pulled out of the arse of whoever wrote this. I say the computers are for playing Solitaire, which has just as much evidence.

How canonical?

The novel describes that Yavin had multiple Senators and Generals who openly supported the Rebellion. From the novel alone, the deaths of those men and women would've destroyed the Alliance in total.

So yeah, it was fucking major and it comes from a source that only the movie can contradict.

It's reasonable to assume that Mon Mothma is still on Coruscant as she was part of the Imperial Senate which had been disbanded only days before the Death Star was destroyed.

Also, Tarkin just blew up a whole fucking planet, why would they be going after Yavin IV if it wasn't housing the rebel leadership. Vader and Tarkin knew that Leia was a leader of the rebels which is why they let her escape from the DS. They also knew that she would lead them back to the highest echelon of the rebel leadership.

As far as it being a major base, well it is a rebellion, not a rival nation. Having a "major base" as in stationary, is kinda retarded, especially against a foe with the might of the Empire, that even without the DS, can reduce planets to slag in minutes. A major rebel base is wherever the big whigs in the rebellion deem it to be by their presence. In ANH it is Yavin IV. In TESB it could be Hoth. In ROTJ it is Home One.

FA Xerrik wrote:Yavin may also have been merely a headquarters for just one member of the Alliance. In light of a lot of the points raised in this thread, it doesn't seem inconceivable that maybe Dodonna was the direct commander of one cell of the Rebellion, possibly a particularly influential or symbolic branch. The Empire might have expected that destroying the cell to which the Organa family and Dodonna belonged could have disastrous repercussions throughout the rest of the Rebellion, effectively ending it. Perhaps by neutralizing the Senate they expected resistance from people like bel Iblis or Mon Mothma to be effectively ended without military leaders like Dodonna.

I believe in one particular comic, Dodonna was pronounced as leader of the Alliance Military. A title that Ackbar was later given after the capture of Dodonna, and when Ackbar was promoted to Admiral of the fleet.

It's reasonable to assume that Mon Mothma is still on Coruscant as she was part of the Imperial Senate which had been disbanded only days before the Death Star was destroyed.

I remember reading some where that Mon Mothma was declared enemy of the state well before the disbandment of the senate.