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So maybe this is an already asked-and-answered question, and if so I apologize for re-iterating, but I didn't find the question or an answer for it after doing a forum search so I figured I'd bring it up.

We have observed that:

1.) Jedi are capable of 'force-crushing'/ manipulating the internal components of machines [various TPM droids, Grievous, etc.]

2.) Sith are capable of doing the same to "non-feeble-minded" living objects [Anakin to Obi-Wan, RotS novelization] as well as inanimate machine objects [Palpatine activating the voice-recorder, RotS novelization]

3.) Lightsabers are precision devices that take skill/finesse to construct. This seems to imply a somewhat delicate but sturdy precision inside of it.

4.) Both Jedi and Sith are capable of 'pulling' lightsabers via the force to their hands [Anakin, RotS Luke Skywalker RotJ] - the Jedi are also known to be able to do this to lightsabers that are not their own [Obi Wan, TPM].

5.) Neither Jedi nor Sith hesitates to use TK attacks, force-pushes, or even direct body manipulation during lightsaber combat.

6.) At least in G-Canon (i can't speak to the EU on account of not having read any of it) there is no case of a Jedi or Sith directly 'canceling out' a Force Push - Choke - Grip, etc. As in, once an opponent uses it, the move will occur, and the best one can hope for is dealing with the effects.




So with all of this known my question is:

During a desperate lightsaber battle, why does nobody ever:

Force-crush the inside of their opponent's lightsaber?
Force-crush their opponent's internal organs during a lightsaber duel to quickly end a fight?


The latter one is particularly annoying to me since Obi-Wan actually *did* pop the joints of Anakin's mechanical hand to make him 'drop' his lightsaber, and Anakin responded by popping the bones in Obi-Wan's joints to produce the same effect. Why go for the hands and not oh...the brain? or heart?

-AHMAD

I've always believed that something about a Force user prevents telekinetic effects on the inside of their body. I'm sure there's a better answer but that is all I have.

6.) At least in G-Canon (i can't speak to the EU on account of not having read any of it) there is no case of a Jedi or Sith directly 'canceling out' a Force Push - Choke - Grip, etc. As in, once an opponent uses it, the move will occur, and the best one can hope for is dealing with the effects.

Obi Wan and Vader both use Force Push simultaneously on Mustafar, they hold their own for a short while before both of them gets thrown across the room. Would you consider this cancelling the effect?

A theory a friend of mine had was that Force users have some form of power allowing them to protect against such moves as organ crushing; some kind of invisible effect or "Force wall" that interferes with other powers could also be offered as an explanation for the "I have the high ground" line or the innefectiveness/lack of flanking with Anakin and Obi-Wan against Dooku in RoTS (it's sketchy, but possible, watching the footage right now).

The latter one is particularly annoying to me since Obi-Wan actually *did* pop the joints of Anakin's mechanical hand to make him 'drop' his lightsaber, and Anakin responded by popping the bones in Obi-Wan's joints to produce the same effect. Why go for the hands and not oh...the brain? or heart?

Could you tell me when abouts in the fight that was, or better yet give me a time? I don't doubt that it happened, but for the life of me I can't remember it.

On the face of it - yes, it does look like they're canceling each other out. I would concede this point, but i think the idea that they were using the force to hold themselves in place (countering the effect) whilst simultaneously pushing their opponent explains the facts better.

My reasoning:
*) There is evidence to show that they would each be capable of providing a 'supportive' push of their own to maintain their body's position. Meanwhile, there is no evidence that they were capable of counteracting their opponents' ability to force-push them in the first place. So unless there is something that a force-cancel would do that dealing-with-the-effects won't do Occam's Razor would support the supportive push theory.


*) When the struggle ended, they were *both* flung back. If you view the force-push-canceling as a single 'arm-wrestle-like' contest, then eventually only the one who lost the 'force-wrestle' should have gotten pushed back, as they managed to cancel their opponent's push. If on the other hand we go with the supportive-push theory, then clearly they *both* cracked, neither was able to maintain their supportive push while simultaneously force-pushing their opponent and they both got thrown back.

*) Even if we accept that this was a case of force-push-canceling, there is ample proof that this was a relatively unique case - implying severe limits on the ability of a Jedi/Sith to use this defense. Evidence:
- In a simultaneous fight, Yoda force-pushes Palpatine and Palpatine does not resist as he is hurtled back past his desk.
- Mace Windu is lifted bodily off the ground, out of an open window, and then flung down without resisting the TK effect by Palpatine.
- Count Dooku force-pushes Anakin into a pile with Obi-Wan, without Anakin force-canceling.
- Early on in RotS, Obi-Wan is force-pushed by Count Dooku - while actively dueling with him - at a time when it was critical that he and Anakin be able to attack in unison.
- Perhaps most damning of all, during that same fight shortly thereafter, Dooku kicks Anakin into a wall, and then Force-Choke's Obi-Wan bodily lifting him off the ground, prior to force-pushing him across the room where he slams into a metal railing, rendering him unconscious for the duration of the fight. At the time Dooku used this ability, Obi-Wan was standing, armed, lightsaber drawn - dueling. He was also conscious and squirming with his hands around his neck as he writhed in the air while being force-choked. If he had been capable of force-canceling, that would have been the ideal time to do it.

So I don't think I can take that as an example of force-cancelling - only as a way of dealing with the effects.

-AHMAD

Venator wrote:Could you tell me when abouts in the fight that was, or better yet give me a time? I don't doubt that it happened, but for the life of me I can't remember it.

It is not shown in the movie, but is explicitly described in the novelization. Since the movie does cut away from the Mustafar fight, and doesn't say anything that blatantly contradicts such an occurrence it's fair to say it happened. Here, let me dredge up the section and quote it, since i'm relying so heavily on it as evidence...


Ah, here we go:

RotS Novelization p429,430/432,433 wrote: "But it was a very good trick.
It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous . . .
He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.
Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free.

. . .

His [Anakin's] hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"
Dark power bore down with his grip.
Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, begin to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.
Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.


. . .

With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go.
Of everything.
His hopes. His fears. His obligations to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin.
And their lightsabers.
Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his sift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood.

As you can see very clearly neither used a force-cancellation to defend, even though Obi-Wan clearly had the time and focus to use just such a defense if he had been able to. Instead, opting to distract his opponent to make Anakin relinquish the force-grip.


-AHMAD

We know from way back in the New Hope novelization that Jedi employ...what to call it? Force Jamming or at least Force ECM and ECCM durring combat. Vader called Obi wan on it when he told him his powers were weak.

Starwars trilogy, hardback pg 143 wrote:Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyelids fluttered again.
"Your powers are weak," Vader noted emotionlessly.

The Jedi also use Force powers in more subtle ways rather than just another hammer to bash at enemies. This relience on Force power in combination of fighting style or dueling practice can be seen in RotJ, when Luke Skywalker, a half trained boy but teeming with raw Force Power was able to break through the defense of Darth Vader, classically trained and well practiced in lightsaber combat.

If it was just pure melee combat with some Force tricks sprinkled in, there's no way in hell Luke flying off the handle would result in his victory. Rather he should have been killed right off by a more experienced saber combatant. There is more going on here than just two sword duelists and some flashy tricks they employ from time to time.

For one, they use the Force push/pull thing strategically as well as a blunt force weapon;

AotC hardback pg 344 wrote:For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying. he tried to step out to the side, but stopped as if he had hit a wall, and his eyes widened a bit when he realized that this young Padawan, in the midst of that assault, had used the Force to block his exit.

Force users use the Force to mess up a fighters stance and limit their movement as well as a battering ram to push them all over the place. And also they seem to use the push/pull trick in more intricate ways in defense;

AotC hardback pg 348 wrote:Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.

...and on the next page;

Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.

Further examples of fine use of Force in strategic ways rather than blunt force attacks;

RotS wrote:They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force.
He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi's balance and disrupted their timing.

oops, wasn't done yet. While one can stand back and ask why the Force users don't just use Force storms or other large attacks, the lititure seems to indicate that the Jedi expend large amounts of energy in small moves. In RotS, Dooku is stated to use more Force energy in deflecting Anakin's blows that the power he used to fling Obi Wan across the room.

A true master is apparently fighting melee combat, while aware of the entire combat space using the Force, while using the Force to refreshen themselves physically, and using the Force to reinforce their blows and shore up their defense.

On top of all that, they then use the Force durring all that to nudge their enemies blows into their blocks, and try to push their enemies blocks away from their strikes (implying that the two are both moving each others weapons while they fight), along with nudging and blocking their opponents bodies from moving around as they want.

All of this while engaging in a sword fight and all the things they need to do for that physical fight. All the while, the energy expended in what appears to be delicate and efficient movements takes more energy than it takes to toss people around the room.

BountyHunterSAx wrote:On the face of it - yes, it does look like they're canceling each other out. I would concede this point, but i think the idea that they were using the force to hold themselves in place (countering the effect) whilst simultaneously pushing their opponent explains the facts better.

My reasoning:
*) There is evidence to show that they would each be capable of providing a 'supportive' push of their own to maintain their body's position. Meanwhile, there is no evidence that they were capable of counteracting their opponents' ability to force-push them in the first place. So unless there is something that a force-cancel would do that dealing-with-the-effects won't do Occam's Razor would support the supportive push theory.


*) When the struggle ended, they were *both* flung back. If you view the force-push-canceling as a single 'arm-wrestle-like' contest, then eventually only the one who lost the 'force-wrestle' should have gotten pushed back, as they managed to cancel their opponent's push. If on the other hand we go with the supportive-push theory, then clearly they *both* cracked, neither was able to maintain their supportive push while simultaneously force-pushing their opponent and they both got thrown back.

Sorry, no. Watch the Yoda/Sidious fight, the Force lightning provides a good visualisation of what is going on between Vader and Obi Wan. The idea is basically that the Force is being 'squished' between the two combatants to a point where neither can exert any meaningful control over this pent up energy, at which points it pops and they both get hit with it. Not that they are creating a null field between them.

BountyHunterSAx wrote:*) Even if we accept that this was a case of force-push-canceling, there is ample proof that this was a relatively unique case - implying severe limits on the ability of a Jedi/Sith to use this defense. Evidence:
- In a simultaneous fight, Yoda force-pushes Palpatine and Palpatine does not resist as he is hurtled back past his desk.
- Mace Windu is lifted bodily off the ground, out of an open window, and then flung down without resisting the TK effect by Palpatine.
- Count Dooku force-pushes Anakin into a pile with Obi-Wan, without Anakin force-canceling.
- Early on in RotS, Obi-Wan is force-pushed by Count Dooku - while actively dueling with him - at a time when it was critical that he and Anakin be able to attack in unison.
- Perhaps most damning of all, during that same fight shortly thereafter, Dooku kicks Anakin into a wall, and then Force-Choke's Obi-Wan bodily lifting him off the ground, prior to force-pushing him across the room where he slams into a metal railing, rendering him unconscious for the duration of the fight. At the time Dooku used this ability, Obi-Wan was standing, armed, lightsaber drawn - dueling. He was also conscious and squirming with his hands around his neck as he writhed in the air while being force-choked. If he had been capable of force-canceling, that would have been the ideal time to do it.

So I don't think I can take that as an example of force-cancelling - only as a way of dealing with the effects.

-AHMAD

So if it doesn't happen each and every time, then it can never happen despite, you know, happening?

Years ago, the RotJ novelization had something to say on the matter:

RotJ novelization wrote:But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful--the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.

A Force push is certainly a "Force-generated" attack, and can therefore be canceled.

As to why Obi-Wan couldn't or didn't repel Vader's Force attack in the RotS novelization, we can only speculate. However, we should note that Vader's grip was a physical and Force grip. If Obi-Wan was using the Force to cancel out the Force portion of the grip, he still had an inferior physical position to contend with. If that is the case, were he to attempt to use the Force in another fashion, he would lose his Force-defense and his arms would snap instantly.

For whatever it is worth, Darth Bane: Path of Destruction concurs with the views presented above. Lightsabre battles (admittedly only in a Sith context) are described as being almost more mental duel between telekinetics/precogs than actual physical fighting.