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Greetings, all:

After having watched ST: ROTS yet again, and having paid particular attention to the battle between Mace Windu and Chancellor Palpatine in Palpatine's office, I must ask, is it possible that Mace Windu could have survived being blown out the window? The only injury that he actually suffered was the loss of his right hand. Yes, he was repeatedly struck by Palpatine's Force Lightning.
I ask this, because in Chapter 1, we see Obi-Wan Kenobi jump out of a sky speeder, fall hundreds of feet through the air, yet land safely in yet another speeder.

Your comments?

Mike Garrity

He lost his hand and was electrocuted so badly that his bones were visible before being thrown out a window likely many kilometers above the surface.

Yes, he's quite dead.

I swear this question gets asked every other month.

TC Pilot wrote:He lost his hand and was electrocuted so badly that his bones were visible before being thrown out a window likely many kilometers above the surface.

Yes, he's quite dead.

There's actually been some discussion of this lately, and Jedi have been shown able to with stand terminal velocity impacts, I personally feel that Force Lightning is not that lethal, and just getting your hand chopped off by a lightsaber when you are a Jedi is not all that devastating.

I think it is quite possible that Mace Windu did survive.

Ironically, the girly scream makes it slightly more likely he's alive; if he's been knocked out, there'd be little question of him using his power to save himself.

I think it makes zero dramatic sense for him to not be dead, but who knows what dumb shit GL will do.

havokeff wrote:There's actually been some discussion of this lately, and Jedi have been shown able to with stand terminal velocity impacts

What? Since when?

I personally feel that Force Lightning is not that lethal

We're not talking about "I'm going to have some fun torturing you" Force Lightning. Palpatine hit Mace with the "Holy shit Darth Vader's trying to kill me" Force Lightning, the stuff that did kill Darth Vader.

I think it is quite possible that Mace Windu did survive.

I seem to recall that not even the novelization was explicit about it, only that Mace "fell in darkness forever." I'd wager that's a nice allusion to death, though.

TC Pilot wrote:

havokeff wrote:There's actually been some discussion of this lately, and Jedi have been shown able to with stand terminal velocity impacts

What? Since when?

Here and here.

I personally feel that Force Lightning is not that lethal

We're not talking about "I'm going to have some fun torturing you" Force Lightning. Palpatine hit Mace with the "Holy shit Darth Vader's trying to kill me" Force Lightning, the stuff that did kill Darth Vader.

See the second link for my thoughts on that.

I think it is quite possible that Mace Windu did survive.

I seem to recall that not even the novelization was explicit about it, only that Mace "fell in darkness forever." I'd wager that's a nice allusion to death, though.

I think this is covered in those links as well.

TC Pilot wrote:

havokeff wrote:There's actually been some discussion of this lately, and Jedi have been shown able to with stand terminal velocity impacts

What? Since when?

I personally feel that Force Lightning is not that lethal

We're not talking about "I'm going to have some fun torturing you" Force Lightning. Palpatine hit Mace with the "Holy shit Darth Vader's trying to kill me" Force Lightning, the stuff that did kill Darth Vader.

I think it is quite possible that Mace Windu did survive.

I seem to recall that not even the novelization was explicit about it, only that Mace "fell in darkness forever." I'd wager that's a nice allusion to death, though.

Er...didn't the lightning just destroy Vader's (not magically durable at all) electronics and respiratory equipment? That's the impression I always had, anyway.

I agree that it's feasible for Windu to have survived - however, given that he hasn't shown up again in any other material, I tend to doubt it. Palpatine does not seem like the "assume they're dead without a body" sort.

I do like the idea of an addled, brain-fried, broken Mace Windu living out the rest of his days in the under-levels of Coruscant, though - able to survive the fall, but crippled, and with almost no mind to speak of. Seems like the kind of thing that Palpatine might decide to leave him alive as a cruel joke.

havokeff wrote:Re: Terminal velocity

Ah yes... that.

Though it is my (rather speculative) belief that Mace would have found little more than a solid block of concrete to grab hold of during his fall from Palpatine's window.

See the second link for my thoughts on that.

I'm not quite sure I agree that it was in fact Vader's failing life support system that killed him. His suit had already been breached when he lost his hand in the duel with Luke, and survived Luke dragging him from the tower to the hanger bay with a failing life support system. And then when Luke outright removes the helmet (after Luke's "You'll die" and Vader's "It's too late"), Anakin still manages to breath for a long while. Anakin at least seemed convinced he was dead, breathing apparatus or no.

I think this is covered in those links as well.

If it was, I didn't see it.

Still, I think it's really stretching believability if Mace survived all that. At the very least, I'm assuming his brain was completely fried by the attack.

I like to think he died as Darth Wong proposed:

Boba Fett's revenge. Actor Samuel Jackson has said that he wants his character Mace Windu to die a memorable death in Episode 3. I think that his death should come at the hands of Boba Fett. Picture this: Mace Windu fights off a horde of attackers. He is victorious, but he senses danger and looks skyward, only to see Slave 1 racing towards him. Boba Fett, who can barely reach the controls, looses a seismic charge and then veers off. Windu's expression changes to one of fatalistic resignation as the seismic charge hurtles to ground, and the next thing you see is Slave 1 flying away from the titanic blast. Inside the ship, Boba whispers "got him, Dad". And the circle is closed.

So he's sent falling to the ground, but manages to use an exquisite manipulation of the Force to land. Then Slave I appears.

He had his arm lopped off, was betrayed utterly and unexpectedly, and was nailed by quite intense Force Lightning. Any of these alone would be enough to break someone's concentration, all three would probably be beyond even Yoda's ability to shrug off to a sufficient degree to prevent a terminal velocity fall from being lethal. And even if he had survived the plummet and the rather rapid deceleration at the end of said plummet, I find it very unlikely that Palpatine wouldn't send down some people to shoot the body a few times. You can never be too sure with Jedi, and Palpatine knew this. The odds of Mace surviving are even worse than winning the jackpot from the lottery.

In any event, hasn't it been explicitly stated that Mace died?

I distinctly remember reading that Windu survived and would return in a new film.

Of course, that was at SuperShadow!

Otherwise, I am with Stark on this one; given all the crazy hoo-hahs Jedi have been shown to pull off, Windu surviving would not be impossible. Merely lame, approaching quasi-Travissite levels...

Darth Hoth wrote:I distinctly remember reading that Windu survived and would return in a new film.

Of course, that was at SuperShadow!

Otherwise, I am with Stark on this one; given all the crazy hoo-hahs Jedi have been shown to pull off, Windu surviving would not be impossible. Merely lame, approaching quasi-Travissite levels...

Why exactly? Anakin had all of his limbs loped off, his flesh was burned off and suffered massive internal organ damage. He survived on the side of a lava flow for at least an hour or two, why is it so wanktastic if Mace survived being hit with some force lightning before being hurdled out a window?

Did you read his post? He acknowledges that Windu could have survived, but that it would be extremely lame for it to occur.

thejester wrote:Did you read his post? He acknowledges that Windu could have survived, but that it would be extremely lame for it to occur.

And did you read mine? I'm asking WHY it is lame, more specifically, why it is SO lame that it is worthy of KT.

havokeff wrote:Why exactly? Anakin had all of his limbs loped off, his flesh was burned off and suffered massive internal organ damage. He survived on the side of a lava flow for at least an hour or two, why is it so wanktastic if Mace survived being hit with some force lightning before being hurdled out a window?

Well, admittedly I never liked the Mace Windu character, so perhaps I am biased, but here is how I see it:

First and foremost, the resurrection of dead characters is a cliché that I would rather do without, especially when I cannot possibly see what storytelling purpose the resurrection would have. I mean, what interesting story could there possibly be involving Mace Windu after his death? Worse, resurrecting characters nearly always caters to either fanboy wanktardry or author marysueing, of which I like neither.

Second, it ruins the symbolism of Episode III, with the most die-hard and fundamentalist of the Jedi being the one to fall to Palpatine. In the film, Windu embodies the negative Jedi reactionaries and doctrinaires, who give way to Yoda's revised teachings and eventually Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order. Admittedly, this is personal opinion, and as such invalid as objective evidence, but I believe the question was why I disliked it.

The inherent wank of the idea is not my main objection, which caters more closely to storytelling purposes.

And as for how it is linked to Traviss: She is presently the worst "Re-Animator" of the Expanded Universe, and this is part (and only part, but still part) of why her books are Bad. I do not know if Daala was her idea originally, but that is pretty much the textbook example of how characters should not be brought back. Thus, I associated her with the idea.

Natasi Daala was a KJA creation for the Jedi Academy Trilogy. So no, it didn't start with Karen. Before she was just incompetent and full of herself, now she's just an idiot who seems like she just lucked into her new position by writer fiat. I never thought she'd surpass KJA, maybe equal but never surpass him, in terms of sheer idiocy in a book. No wait, scratch that I did, good to see her living up to expectations.

havokeff wrote:

thejester wrote:Did you read his post? He acknowledges that Windu could have survived, but that it would be extremely lame for it to occur.

And did you read mine? I'm asking WHY it is lame, more specifically, why it is SO lame that it is worthy of KT.

No, you were asking why it was wanktastic - as in the physical side of things. As Hoth explains (and I agree with him), the lameness stems not from Windu's physical ability to survive (which as you point out is not out of the question) but rather the way in which it undermines key dramatic points in ROTS and ANH. And quite possibly symbolise so much of what is wrong with the EU.

I guess I took down the sig I crafted after Episode III came out way too soon, so i'll just post this one last time, choose One from the list below:

-MACE WINDU
-AAYLA SECURA
-BARRISS OFFEE
-KI ADI MUNDI
-PLO KOON
-SAESEE TIIN

(Insert Name From List) IS FUCKING DEAD AND THERE IS NO WAY (HE/SHE) IS COMING BACK.


Honestly, there are so many people in fandom, whether its Star Wars or some other brand of science fiction/fantasy/superhero comics/whatever, that complain about death no longer being an issue because so many characters are revived from Spock to Jason Todd. Revival or Miracle tales of survival when a character appeared to be dead have become cliche. So why do authors keep writing them?

BECAUSE FANBOYS (this one not included) KEEP CLAMORING FOR IT.

Until he shows up somewhere else, Windu is dead.

And even then, he's still dead, because it'd be stupid for him to live from a storytelling perspective.

However, the idea of Windu somehow living, but as a complete mindless loony living in the remains of the Jedi temple and attacking anyone who comes near does bring a little smile to my face.

I motion that IF Windu is ever shown to survive, it is in such a fashion that it cannot be said to legitimately be the same person mentally as the man that fell from the window.

General Schatten wrote:Natasi Daala was a KJA creation for the Jedi Academy Trilogy. So no, it didn't start with Karen. Before she was just incompetent and full of herself, now she's just an idiot who seems like she just lucked into her new position by writer fiat. I never thought she'd surpass KJA, maybe equal but never surpass him, in terms of sheer idiocy in a book. No wait, scratch that I did, good to see her living up to expectations.

My apologies, I misspoke; what I meant to say was, I do not know whether the decision to bring Daala back originated with Traviss herself or with some Del Rey/LFL doofus. I am aware of her earlier history under Anderson and Hambly.

Darth Hoth wrote:Second, it ruins the symbolism of Episode III, with the most die-hard and fundamentalist of the Jedi being the one to fall to Palpatine. In the film, Windu embodies the negative Jedi reactionaries and doctrinaires, who give way to Yoda's revised teachings and eventually Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order. Admittedly, this is personal opinion, and as such invalid as objective evidence, but I believe the question was why I disliked it.

I fund this incredibly amusing coming from you, as a person that so vehemently defends the EU and the Clone Palpatine which not only ruins the the symbolism of Episode VI, but undermines the point of the entire movie saga.

havokeff wrote:

Darth Hoth wrote:Second, it ruins the symbolism of Episode III, with the most die-hard and fundamentalist of the Jedi being the one to fall to Palpatine. In the film, Windu embodies the negative Jedi reactionaries and doctrinaires, who give way to Yoda's revised teachings and eventually Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order. Admittedly, this is personal opinion, and as such invalid as objective evidence, but I believe the question was why I disliked it.

I fund this incredibly amusing coming from you, as a person that so vehemently defends the EU and the Clone Palpatine which not only ruins the the symbolism of Episode VI, but undermines the point of the entire movie saga.

Can you explain to me how it ruins the symbolism? As far as I know RotJ is now considered the finale to a tale of fall and redemption. Skywalker redemed himself and gave Luke time enough to become stronger in the Force, had Vader not done that Luke would've been dead at Endor and the Emperor would be immortal.

General Schatten wrote: Can you explain to me how it ruins the symbolism? As far as I know RotJ is now considered the finale to a tale of fall and redemption. Skywalker redemed himself and gave Luke time enough to become stronger in the Force, had Vader not done that Luke would've been dead at Endor and the Emperor would be immortal.

It doesn't ruin it, but it definitely spoils it a little. Instead of the Emperor being dead and defeated, Anakin Skywalker gave his life so that the Emperor would be inconvenienced for a few years and give his son the chance to build a dysfunctional Jedi Order.

General Schatten wrote:Can you explain to me how it ruins the symbolism? As far as I know RotJ is now considered the finale to a tale of fall and redemption. Skywalker redemed himself and gave Luke time enough to become stronger in the Force, had Vader not done that Luke would've been dead at Endor and the Emperor would be immortal.

RotJ was the finale to the tale of Anakin Skywalker. The Chosen One. And, as per Episode I, the Chosen One was supposed to, inevitably, bring balance to the force. His redemption (i.e. saving Luke and killing Palpatine) brought balance to the Force, because Palpatine represented the Dark Side. That is, after Vader's death in RotJ, balance had been brought to the Force.

The resurrected Emperor ruins that symbolism and that theme by saying that Anakin Skywalker was NOT the Chosen One, and his "redemption" didn't destroy the Dark Side at all. And by the time of the death of the resurrected Emperor, there was a new shitty Jedi Order, and so the Force never achieves balance.