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Posted: **2008-05-20 05:40am**

In-universe, it's a widely held belief that the Rebels are pirates and brigands. Out-of-universe, it's almost as widely held that these claims are exaggerated by Imperial propagandists and in reality big R Rebels only raid legitimate military targets for equipment and supplies. I'm wondering if this is accurate, but it also raises larger questions about the Alliance economy as a whole.

Despite pretensions of statehood, the Alliance doesn't control much if any territory with a taxable civilian economy. Therefore it's presumed that their wealth (in the form of hard currency and stable commodities) comes from the secret contributions of sympathetic parties or from selling stuff on the galactic black market. Indeed it's well established that what they aren't given by their benefactors or take from the Imperials is purchased on the black market. But what could they sell that they aren't in desperate need of themselves? And, perhaps more to the point, where are they getting this stuff?

They do appear to have a very limited capacity for industry so I suppose it's possible that they're mining valuables of no strategic worth in the middle of nowhere, but it seems to me they'd almost need to exploit their status as a military power to extort something other than guns and butter from somebody other than the Imperials. Unless of course "Imperial shipping" means more than military convoys.

Posted: **2008-05-20 08:40am**

Darth Raptor wrote:In-universe, it's a widely held belief that the Rebels are pirates and brigands. Out-of-universe, it's almost as widely held that these claims are exaggerated by Imperial propagandists and in reality big R Rebels only raid legitimate military targets for equipment and supplies. I'm wondering if this is accurate, but it also raises larger questions about the Alliance economy as a whole.

Errr....... Its documented in the RASB that the Alliance relies heavily on privateers. Similarly, Fleet Admiral from SB also documented multiple incidents of the Rebels staging pirate/terrorist attacks on civilians to fight the Empire.

Given that rawmat is part of the supplies seized, its obviously isn't restricted to purely military convoys.

Posted: **2008-05-20 08:51am**

I believe that in Pirates and Privateers there is a list of corporations that are considered fair game for Alliance-sanctioned privateers, and reasons why they're on the list.

Unfortunately I don't have the book on hand to reproduce the list.

Posted: **2008-05-20 03:46pm**

I think there may be a copy of that somewhere I can get my hands on it ... And I believe I thought right: from the original WEG Rebel Privateers book.

The ships, cargoes, and space-borne property of the following corporations are considered legitimate targets for Alliance privateers:

Any Imperial vessel. This includes ships of the Imperial Navy, COMPNOR, or the Imperial government.

SoroSuub Corp. One of the largest manufacturers and retailers in the galaxy. Headquarters: Sullust. (CSA)

Kuat Drive Yards (KDY). Major shipwright of the Imperial Navy. (CSA)

The Tagge Company (TaggeCo). Owner of Bonadan Industries, Tagge Mining Company, GalResource Industries, Mobquet Swoops and Speeders, Trast Heavy Transports, GowixComputers, the Tagge Restaurant Association, which owns the Biscuit Baron chain and several macro-farms. Major supplier to the Imperial Governments, COMPNOR and the Corporate Sector. (CSA)

Nebula Consumables. An Imperial military food supplier. Headquarters: Tyed Kant.

Imperial Meats and Produce. A corporation nationalized by the Empire. Headquarters: Tyed Kant.

Zone Supplies, Ltd. Produces security systems for the Imperial Army.

Merr-Sonn Mil/Sci. Heavy weapons, armor, siege equipment, military gear. Subsidiaries:
Merr-Sonn Munitions, MerrWeapons, Merr-Sonn Industrial Equipment. (CSA)

BlasTech Corp. Czerka Weapons. Blethern Gas Industries. Norsam Corp. Munitions and weapons systems suppliers to the Imperial Military.

Arakyd Corp. Produces weapons and droids systems for the Empire.

Santhe/Sienar Technologies and subsidiaries. Santhe Passenger and Freight, Curich Engineering, Sienar Fleet Systems. Research, development and manufacture of several Imperial military systems and technologies, including the TIE fighter. Warning: this company has state of the art military quality defense systems. Headquarters: Lianna. (CSA)

Imperial Mining Corp. Imperial corporation with branch offices in several sectors. Headquarters: Coruscant.

Fabritech, Inc. Sensor and control systems manufacturer, supplies Imperial military.

Drever Corp. Small arms and tool manufacturer. Supplies the Phoenix Plasma Punch, a boarding tool, to Imperial Customs.

Imperial HoloVision, TriNebulon News, Nova Network. Distributors of pro-Imperial propaganda.

MerenData. Droid and security system manufacturer. Supplies military and interrogation droids and targeting drones. (CSA)

Corporate Sector. The ships and properties of the Corporate Sector Authority.

Note: (CSA) indicates a contributor to the Corporate Sector Authority. CSA and CSA contributors on this list are targets, but CSA contributors not on this list are not targets.

It also says that the rebels paid a bounty on live Imperial officers, but discouraged bloodshed by their privateers.

Posted: **2008-05-20 04:41pm**

ok. The only one on that list that doesn't seem like a legitimate military target is the Tagge Restaurant Association.

Seriously, I mean that's like knocking off an interstellar mcdonalds.

Posted: **2008-05-20 04:42pm**

Aren't WEG sources summarily dismissed now?

Posted: **2008-05-20 04:47pm**

Thanks guys, this is exactly the kind of stuff I wanted to know.

Also: Do Rebels get paid?

Posted: **2008-05-20 05:17pm**

Darksider wrote:ok. The only one on that list that doesn't seem like a legitimate military target is the Tagge Restaurant Association.

Seriously, I mean that's like knocking off an interstellar mcdonalds.

The Tagge Restaurant Association's name is misleading; it is consistently identified as a extraordinarily large player in the agricultural sector, rather than an actual chain of restaurants. Inside the Worlds of Attack of the Clones refers to TaggeCo.'s subsidiary as an "intergalactic food giant," and the Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions it with Core Foodstuffs and the Imperial Fruit Company as "macro-farming giants" that benefitted from Imperial "agri-sector maximization" policies which reduced the yeomanry to "virtual serfs." The Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook refers to it as having "interests in macro-farming and Biscuit Baron, the largest restaurant chain in the Empire."

The scale at which the TRA operates must be considerable, in light of the fact that the Salliche Ag Corporation is identified as controlling some eighteen "agri-planets" completely dedicated to agricultural production in "Recon & Report: The Journey to Coruscant." The advanced state of Imperial technology tends to indicate the quantity of foodstuffs produced by a "macro-farming giant" must be prodigious; the extremely comfortable working relationship between TaggeCo. and the Imperial State suggests that the TRA is considered a valid target because it probably provides much of the Imperial armed forces' victualling.

havokeff wrote:Aren't WEG sources summarily dismissed now?

No.

Posted: **2008-05-20 06:01pm**

As far as I'm aware, the game mechanics and some of their numbers (namely the 8km phenomenon) are summarily dismissed, but the 'fluff' as taken from WEG sourcebooks is perfectly valid, and in some cases, the only source where certain entities appear, or are elaborated on.

I could be wrong, though. Correct me if I am.

Posted: **2008-05-20 06:34pm**

THat's strange. I was certain Ayelixe/Krongbing Textiles were part of this list.

Posted: **2008-05-20 07:01pm**

It is. This is not the complete list found in Pirates & Privateers.

Posted: **2008-05-21 12:00pm**

I always hated the squeaky clean image of the rebels. I sure hope they have serial killers and rapists amidst their ranks. "Liberating" a prison ship full of "wrongfully convicted" blokes and all.

Posted: **2008-05-21 01:27pm**

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I always hated the squeaky clean image of the rebels. I sure hope they have serial killers and rapists amidst their ranks. "Liberating" a prison ship full of "wrongfully convicted" blokes and all.

The New Republic released sixteen of the galaxy's worst convicts from Kessel and turned them loose on Coruscant prior to Rogue Squadron's insertion to create havoc, as a diversion, during the campaign to liberate the planet.

These are the same guys that went on to recreate Black Sun.

Posted: **2008-05-21 02:50pm**

The rebel morals of all times and places can be described in one short sentence; If it helps the cause, then it's moral.. And vice versa, of course.

Posted: **2008-05-21 02:50pm**

The sacking of the Imperial Palace was especially atrocious, though to be fair the Rebel leadership probably lost control of their forces by that point. Once the battle was won, the army devolved into a lynch mob.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I always hated the squeaky clean image of the rebels. I sure hope they have serial killers and rapists amidst their ranks. "Liberating" a prison ship full of "wrongfully convicted" blokes and all.

People have taken "better than the Palpatine" to mean "good". This perception, while reinforced by the movies and POV of most EU material, isn't realistic.

Posted: **2008-05-21 03:18pm**

Unlike most on this forum, I don't have a die-hard desire to subvert the premises of the media in the case of Star Trek and (to a much lesser extent) Star Wars. The fact that the Rebels do have relatively high standards and pretty uniform idealism would lend one to believe they are naive and poor at realistic statecraft, a conclusion borne out by the evidence. Its realistic in one way, if not another.

Posted: **2008-05-21 03:50pm**

Me, I always found Elscol Loro's particular brand of Rebel-ism both more believable and more interesting than the "squeaky clean" Alliance. Or even the Socialist People's Liberation Battalion on Eiattu. Anything that is not farmboy idealism and a longing for the corrupt Old Republic.

Posted: **2008-05-21 03:55pm**

I am not a fan of "paleo-Republican restorationism", if you will, in the the ideological makeup of the in Alliance to the Restore the Republic and its successor organizations in the Alliance of Free Planets and the New Republic. Their big problem is they tend to oppose a lot of conceptual and state reforms on the basis of their association with Palpatinism alone. I'd be much more sympathetic to a movement to take the "Palpatine" out of Palpatinism and the "Empire" out of Imperialism. A lot of his reforms were enacted simply because they were vitally necessary, not all of it was chicanery to maintain his despotate and advance it.

Posted: **2008-05-21 07:38pm**

Darth Raptor wrote:The sacking of the Imperial Palace was especially atrocious, though to be fair the Rebel leadership probably lost control of their forces by that point. Once the battle was won, the army devolved into a lynch mob.

Where is that detailed? I'd be interested in seeing it.

Darth Raptor wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:I always hated the squeaky clean image of the rebels. I sure hope they have serial killers and rapists amidst their ranks. "Liberating" a prison ship full of "wrongfully convicted" blokes and all.
People have taken "better than the Palpatine" to mean "good". This perception, while reinforced by the movies and POV of most EU material, isn't realistic.

I think part of it is that the big-R Rebels probably were fairly squeaky clean, as it were. Especially if most of their leadership and such came from OR and planetary navy veterans. I think the main thing is whether the all of the "rebels" out there were as good, how much of a tie they had with the Rebels, and of course some white-washing no doubt by later NR historians (or groups they used out of necessity were later officially disavowed and so on...).

Posted: **2008-05-21 08:20pm**

RogueIce wrote:
Darth Raptor wrote:The sacking of the Imperial Palace was especially atrocious, though to be fair the Rebel leadership probably lost control of their forces by that point. Once the battle was won, the army devolved into a lynch mob.
Where is that detailed? I'd be interested in seeing it.

It is mentioned in passing in Children of the Jedi.

Posted: **2008-05-22 04:35am**

Publius wrote:It is mentioned in passing in Children of the Jedi.

Dear God, you mean I'd have to read that? No thanks.

*clicks over to Wookieepedia*

Wookieepedia wrote:Aside from the few rescued prisoners, any Imperial officials and functionaries that were found were murdered, regardless of age, sex, position, or innocence.

Is this what he was referring to?

Posted: **2008-05-22 05:32am**

RogueIce wrote:
Wookieepedia wrote:Aside from the few rescued prisoners, any Imperial officials and functionaries that were found were murdered, regardless of age, sex, position, or innocence.
Is this what he was referring to?

I read that as "age, sex position, or innocence" the first time round. Jeez.

Anyway, didn't Dark Empire establish that criminal elements also had a hand in sacking Coruscant not just after but during that Battle of Coruscant? "Scavengers" or some such? Not to say that the military under the Alliance banner didn't commit atrocities, but can you imagine criminal syndicate factions taking advantage of the battle to raid not just physical assets but databases of banks, judiciary and commercial entities. From the visuals of the comic I'd say that the severity and scale of the battle was higher than the Rogue Squadron's Battle of Coruscant several years earlier.

Anyway it's my personal extrapolation from the situation I understand.

Posted: **2008-05-22 10:12am**

RogueIce wrote:
Publius wrote:It is mentioned in passing in Children of the Jedi.
Dear God, you mean I'd have to read that? No thanks.

Silent in the narrow alleyway, Leia recalled the day the Rebels had taken Coruscant. The Emperor's palace -- that endless, gorgeous maze of crystal roofs, hanging gardens, pyramids of green and blue marble shining with gold... summer quarters, winter quarters, treasuries, pavilions, music rooms, prisons, halls... grace-and-favor residences for concubines, ministers, and trained assassins -- had been shelled hard and partially looted already, Rebel partisans having killed whichever members of the Court they could catch. These had included, if Leia remembered correctly, not only the President of the Bureau of Punishments and the head of the Emperor's School of Torturers, but the court clothing designer and any number of minor and completely innocent servants of all ages, species, and sexes whose names had never even been reported.

This must have taken place during the first conquest of Coruscant rather than the second, as there would have been no reason for any court functionaries to have remained in the Palace after the events of the Dark Empire saga. In particular the fact that the Palace was shelled points to the first battle, in which both Grand Gen. Malcor Brashin and Gen. Tal Ashen fell back to the Palace while fighting rebel forces under Gen. Brenn Tantor and Gen. Rand Talor, respectively (Force Commander and Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns). Presumably one or the other of the rebel generals lost command and control after the heavy fighting, resulting in the looting and lynching spree remembered by the Princess Leia. It is noteworthy as the most prominent violation of "purity of arms" by the rebel Alliance.

Posted: **2008-05-22 11:59am**

minor nitpick.

She describes the looters as "rebel partisans." Does that mean that they were coruscant resistance forces rather than the official new republic army?

Posted: **2008-05-22 12:12pm**

Publius wrote: This must have taken place during the first conquest of Coruscant rather than the second, as there would have been no reason for any court functionaries to have remained in the Palace after the events of the Dark Empire saga. In particular the fact that the Palace was shelled points to the first battle, in which both Grand Gen. Malcor Brashin and Gen. Tal Ashen fell back to the Palace while fighting rebel forces under Gen. Brenn Tantor and Gen. Rand Talor, respectively (Force Commander and Galactic Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns). Presumably one or the other of the rebel generals lost command and control after the heavy fighting, resulting in the looting and lynching spree remembered by the Princess Leia. It is noteworthy as the most prominent violation of "purity of arms" by the rebel Alliance.

Additional credence may be lent to that assumption by noting the fact that Leia's narrative regarding the palace's breadth, the "...endless, gorgeous maze of crystal roofs, hanging gardens, pyramids of green and blue marble shining with gold," would appear to read (at least, to me) that the palace was mostly intact before the sacking. Given the state of Coruscant's appearance during the Dark Empire comic, and the prolonged warfare that supposedly took place in-between the Imperial reconquest and the arrival of the New Republic Star Destroyer Liberator and the subsequent New Republic rescue force, I would find it hard to believe that such decor was left largely intact.

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