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So I was flipping through Episode 3 on DVD yesterday while whiling away the hours in the only air conditioned room in the house (portable air conditioner); and I noticed that the movie could have been immensely improved by a few subtle and judicious edits:

• Give Obi Wan and Anakin full body suits and helmets when they're flying their Jedi Starfighters in combat. I mean, wouldn't you want to wear an emergency pressure suit and helmet in a combat situation?
• Make the Battle of Coruscant less of a chaotic point blank battle -- there's no reason for everyone to be trading shots at 100 meters distance; the only reason Endor ended up like that was because of the Death Star's poor targeting capability.
• Delete the stupid broadsides. Show Republic Navy personnel in Republic Navy uniforms which resemble Imperial uniforms directing fire from main battery command points.
• Make the Battle of Kashykk less of a wankfest; have the Wookiies and Trade Feds actually use real tactics; instead of charging at each other.
• Add a scene based upon this sequence from the ROTS novelization, it lets you understand why Anakin was so upset he wasn't made a Jedi Master:
  

  The Jedi Temple also contained the archives, the vast library that encompassed the Order's entire twenty-five millennia of existence: everything from the widest-ranging cosmographical surveys to the intimate journals of a billion Jedi Knights. It was there Anakin hoped to find everything that was known about prophetic dreams—and everything that was known about pre­venting these prophecies from coming to pass.
  
  His only problem was that the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force were stored in restricted holocrons; since the Lorian Nod affair, some seventy standard years before, access to these holocrons was denied to all but Jedi Masters.

In general, I thought that all three prequel movies would have been considerably improved if they were simply subjected to an editor from outside the project. Improving some of the combat tactics might have helped, but the most glaring deficiencies of the films were not so much what they lacked, but what they included which should have been cut.

Darth Wong wrote:the most glaring deficiencies of the films were not so much what they lacked, but what they included which should have been cut.

Natalie Portman?

While on the topic of combat the CIS needed to be replaced from the ground up. Sorry but B1 droids are not scary and the silly voices kill whatever impression SBDs made in EP 2. And to top it off all the neimodian and other rubber mask clown aliens that make up the CIS totally discredit them as anything other than a cartoon enemy.

It is an editing problem - too much focusing on certain things, too much EU stuff that explains things. The movies themselves are kinda incoherent . We know because we get the back story, but the storyline looks excessively shallow without that.

Darth Wong wrote:In general, I thought that all three prequel movies would have been considerably improved if they were simply subjected to an editor from outside the project.

I think that's why Indy 4 worked so well; despite Lucas' involvement -- Spielburg and Harrison Ford have enough clout to tell Lucas to STFU; this won't work, while on the SW Prequels project; it's all an incestuous circle jerk with only a few very well known names; everyone is a virtual unknown.

Agreed with the "editing is the problem". I have always maintained that A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back were superior movies because Marcia Lucas was editing them along with GL. Even ROTJ, which was weakest of the three originals, flowed well as a movie. The story suffered IMO because of the lack of Kurtz's input.
I think with out her, all GL had left were yes men.

I think the attempt to tie in the new movies with the originals also hurt, because it forced GL into certain spots that he otherwise might not have been in.

Also, he was much more cynical and dark when he made ANH. 30 years of age has lightened him up a bit.

MKSheppard wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:In general, I thought that all three prequel movies would have been considerably improved if they were simply subjected to an editor from outside the project.

I think that's why Indy 4 worked so well; despite Lucas' involvement -- Spielburg and Harrison Ford have enough clout to tell Lucas to STFU; this won't work, while on the SW Prequels project; it's all an incestuous circle jerk with only a few very well known names; everyone is a virtual unknown.

Ironically, it's the editing stage which Lucas considers the most important. He regards directing as a tiresome chore and it shows. That makes it doubly sad that the prequels are ALSO poorly edited.

I would have liked to see Anakin actually fight Mace Windu a little more, or at least actually deliver the killing blow.

Darth Fanboy wrote:I would have liked to see Anakin actually fight Mace Windu a little more, or at least actually deliver the killing blow.

That would have been cool, but it would have added to the overall problem of the movie having more then it needed in it.

Galvatron wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:the most glaring deficiencies of the films were not so much what they lacked, but what they included which should have been cut.

Natalie Portman?

Hayden Christensen.

among other things i would have removed the parts with Chewie, it seemed unnecessary and somewhat odd that he knew Yoda.

Also a more charismatic Palpatine i think would have improved the movie.

How about Palpatine not handling his lightsaber like a fucking retard? His technique is about ten different kinds of wrong; it leaves him wide open and restricts his own movements and possible strikes because of the way he keeps his hands in close to himself and jabs. That three Jedi Masters went down to him so quickly while he was fighting like he was is pathetic.

MKSheppard wrote: Give Obi Wan and Anakin full body suits and helmets when they're flying their Jedi Starfighters in combat. I mean, wouldn't you want to wear an emergency pressure suit and helmet in a combat situation?

My guess is that they figured that if they did get hit, they'd be immediately killed in the explosion, so having the ability to survive if the ship broke wasn't high priority.

Make the Battle of Coruscant less of a chaotic point blank battle -- there's no reason for everyone to be trading shots at 100 meters distance; the only reason Endor ended up like that was because of the Death Star's poor targeting capability.

What if the CIS had inferior long-range fighting ability, so they decided to jump right into the Old Republic's fleet, or jump as close as possible?

Make the Battle of Kashykk less of a wankfest; have the Wookiies and Trade Feds actually use real tactics; instead of charging at each other.

How exciting would that be?

CaptainZoidberg wrote:

Make the Battle of Kashykk less of a wankfest; have the Wookiies and Trade Feds actually use real tactics; instead of charging at each other.

How exciting would that be?

Probably like a larger, fast paced version of the Hoth battle.

havokeff wrote:Agreed with the "editing is the problem". I have always maintained that A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back were superior movies because Marcia Lucas was editing them along with GL. Even ROTJ, which was weakest of the three originals, flowed well as a movie. The story suffered IMO because of the lack of Kurtz's input.
I think with out her, all GL had left were yes men.

What have Marcia Lucas or Gary Kurtz done since 1980-81?

MKSheppard wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:In general, I thought that all three prequel movies would have been considerably improved if they were simply subjected to an editor from outside the project.

I think that's why Indy 4 worked so well; despite Lucas' involvement -- Spielburg and Harrison Ford have enough clout to tell Lucas to STFU; this won't work, while on the SW Prequels project; it's all an incestuous circle jerk with only a few very well known names; everyone is a virtual unknown.

It's funny watching people use Spielberg, Kurtz, Kershner, even Lucas' ex-wife as ciphers for the idea that Lucas should have taken advice from them. By them, I don't mean Spielberg, Kurtz, et al; I mean the jilted fanboy who feels put out that George Lucas didn't consult them. These other people are stand-ins for fanwank fantasies.

On the subject of editing, I think it's a lost art. Michael Kahn edited the Indiana Jones movies and they are all 2 hours long.

Elfdart wrote:

havokeff wrote:Agreed with the "editing is the problem". I have always maintained that A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back were superior movies because Marcia Lucas was editing them along with GL. Even ROTJ, which was weakest of the three originals, flowed well as a movie. The story suffered IMO because of the lack of Kurtz's input.
I think with out her, all GL had left were yes men.

What have Marcia Lucas or Gary Kurtz done since 1980-81?

Made just as many good Star Wars movies as Lucas has since then: none.

Elfdart wrote:It's funny watching people use Spielberg, Kurtz, Kershner, even Lucas' ex-wife as ciphers for the idea that Lucas should have taken advice from them. By them, I don't mean Spielberg, Kurtz, et al; I mean the jilted fanboy who feels put out that George Lucas didn't consult them. These other people are stand-ins for fanwank fantasies.

George's insularity following the success of the first Star Wars is well-documented. He systematically rid himself of as many dissenting viewpoints as possible while Lucasfilm grew into the sort of corporate empire he once supposedly loathed.

Yeah, but it's true that there are a lot of movies (including very highly regarded ones) that I would recut if I had the chance, yet very few people ever say that. They come out in droves to say that for Star Wars, and a lot of it does come from fans who are angry that GL didn't make the prequels THEY imagined in their minds?

I still remember all of the idiot fanboys who were upset that shitty EU ship designs didn't show up in the prequels.

CaptainZoidberg wrote:

MKSheppard wrote:Make the Battle of Coruscant less of a chaotic point blank battle -- there's no reason for everyone to be trading shots at 100 meters distance; the only reason Endor ended up like that was because of the Death Star's poor targeting capability.

What if the CIS had inferior long-range fighting ability, so they decided to jump right into the Old Republic's fleet, or jump as close as possible?

The close proximity of the battle over Coruscant was caused by both fleets being trapped under the planetary shields wasnt it?

Darth Ruinus wrote:

CaptainZoidberg wrote:

MKSheppard wrote:Make the Battle of Coruscant less of a chaotic point blank battle -- there's no reason for everyone to be trading shots at 100 meters distance; the only reason Endor ended up like that was because of the Death Star's poor targeting capability.

What if the CIS had inferior long-range fighting ability, so they decided to jump right into the Old Republic's fleet, or jump as close as possible?

The close proximity of the battle over Coruscant was caused by both fleets being trapped under the planetary shields wasnt it?

I believe it was caused by the Republic fleet's need to physically box in the CIS fleet so it couldn't escape with Palpatine. If they stood off at long range and fired at them, the CIS fleet could have simply retreated with their hostage, having accomplished their mission objective.

Mmmh, the Wookiepedia article says:

The reinforcements and the beleaguered Home Fleet trapped the Separatist ships in Coruscant's upper atmosphere, under the planetary shields.

But then again the Battle of Coruscant has some messed up reports, as some sources say it lasted a week and the ROTS novelization saying it lasted a day. And the whole thing with Shaak Ti and other stuff.

But your explation is much simpler, and I guess make sense in both scenarios.

Galvatron wrote: Made just as many good Star Wars movies as Lucas has since then: none.

The moviegoing public disagrees. Most people also realizee that Lucas is the greatest filmmaker of all time. After all, even the people who think he's "lost it" and who hate his guts still pay to watch his movies.

Elfdart wrote: George's insularity following the success of the first Star Wars is well-documented.

Lucas was insular before the success of Star Wars, and insisted on doing things his way. The whole reason he left Hollywood is so they couldn't fuck up his movies.

He systematically rid himself of as many dissenting viewpoints as possible while Lucasfilm grew into the sort of corporate empire he once supposedly loathed.

Evidence, please.

There are several layers of problems. From simple filmmaking and indisputable errors in the making of the films as they existed, to conceptual errors with the films.

Personally, the prequels suffered from an incoherent vision of the early Jedi and Republic (frankly it worked less like a tragedy of a flawed system with sincere people working in it, and more like a comedy of errors by incompetents you almost want to get waxed by the bad guys), and an incoherent vision of the Clone Wars. Goddammit, you don't name a set of terrible wars after your own troops, not to mention involving the Jedi with a dubious ethical plan of warmaking that dramatically undercuts any ability to foreshadow some of the most compelling fleshing-out of the Empire: the elite and the military (which ANH basically wholly focuses on). I understand GL later modified his vision of the Emperor and his rise to power, but that doesn't mean we cannot still have Tarkin and the technocrats opportunistically tagging along. Let the Jedi be knights, not monks, let the enemies be clones, let Anakin not be 9 years old in Ep I, and do not cast Natalie Portman anywhere and maybe not Sam Jackson either.

In a spectrum from Elfdart the film buff and Lucas stalwart ("the prequels are no different or only very minorly different from the originals, except for the wanking of fanboys") or 1 to Galvatron the archetypical Lucas critic ("my vision of SW is better and should have been made") or 10. I'm definitely probably 4 or 5. Probably a little more critical than Mike but around there definitely.

Basically I don't think the prequels are that much worse, but there's definitely things I see as major logical flaws conceptually with the prequels that stand out (most of which I listed above). Goddammit, Anakin should not be 9, and the clones should be bad guys (or at least start off just bad guys).

Build up the CIS into a genuine menace, instead of the pathetic paper tiger the films make it appear to be.

MKSheppard wrote:So I was flipping through Episode 3 on DVD yesterday while whiling away the hours in the only air conditioned room in the house (portable air conditioner); and I noticed that the movie could have been immensely improved by a few subtle and judicious edits:

• Give Obi Wan and Anakin full body suits and helmets when they're flying their Jedi Starfighters in combat. I mean, wouldn't you want to wear an emergency pressure suit and helmet in a combat situation?

Meh, I'd like it since I found it annoying but not sure it's a issue for a major edit. But I digress;

[*]Make the Battle of Coruscant less of a chaotic point blank battle -- there's no reason for everyone to be trading shots at 100 meters distance; the only reason Endor ended up like that was because of the Death Star's poor targeting capability.
[*]Delete the stupid broadsides. Show Republic Navy personnel in Republic Navy uniforms which resemble Imperial uniforms directing fire from main battery command points.

Actually I have no problem with the battle, though again with the uniforms and/or clonetroops/naval personnel, I agree again but don't see it as an issue worth of a major edit.

[*]Make the Battle of Kashykk less of a wankfest; have the Wookiies and Trade Feds actually use real tactics; instead of charging at each other.

Again, meh.

[*]Add a scene based upon this sequence from the ROTS novelization, it lets you understand why Anakin was so upset he wasn't made a Jedi Master:

The Jedi Temple also contained the archives, the vast library that encompassed the Order's entire twenty-five millennia of existence: everything from the widest-ranging cosmographical surveys to the intimate journals of a billion Jedi Knights. It was there Anakin hoped to find everything that was known about prophetic dreams—and everything that was known about pre­venting these prophecies from coming to pass.

His only problem was that the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force were stored in restricted holocrons; since the Lorian Nod affair, some seventy standard years before, access to these holocrons was denied to all but Jedi Masters.

[/list]

This is the only one I can whole hardedly agree with, along with a better depiction of Palpatines final coup de grace in his office with Windu and the Jedi Masters.

As it is, I'm more in line with IP. The whole PT story arc was a bit conveluded and rushed with all of episode I being Anakin 9 years old and the Clone Wars being just the clones of hte republic.