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Upon re-reading The Last Command, I noticed the detail of Luuke's cloning. Apparently, the Emperor had kept Luke's cut-off hand in his uberduper-secret facility at Mount Tantiss for some time even before his death. About the only reasonable use he could have had for it would be extracting DNA (he does not strike me as a Chaos Lord-style villain who takes pleasure in being surrounded by dead body parts).

So, my question is, why did the Emperor not clone Luke? Well, perhaps he thought it had some symbolic value to turn him fair and square, or perhaps he was merely overconfident at Endor. But at the end of that battle, he clearly gave up on Luke. Hence, the very most reasonable thing for him to do once reborn would be to clone the boy (Or, even, why not a new Vader?), not stagger around in two more incarnations attempting to turn him. If a clone-mad Jedi asshat could think it up, why would Palpatine not? Especially if he had had the idea before? And in particular when he himself needed a new clone template? He was growing insane, certainly, but was it that severe? Even in Dark Empire, he never appears as far off his track as C'baoth was.

(I know that there are obvious out of universe reasons; I was merely wondering how one might rationalise it in-universe.)

Easily, by the fact that Clones due very funky, very bad things to the Force even without being force sensitive. (The Luuke clone was dangerous mainly due to messing Luke up and drastically reducing his powers), and two Clones together would presumably have the same effect on each other.
Not to mention that Clonetrooper style indoctrination would probably not work that well with violent, aggressive, independent dark side powered leaders. (The best use for the clone).

Simply, not even Palpatine was crazy enough to clone an army of Luukes all at once, even he kept his clones mindless and only went into one at a time. (that's assuming he had the choice).

It might be the case that cloning does not reliably and consistently produce Force-using clones, which would make cloning anyone of Skywalker bloodline an enterprise in futility. Furthermore, it takes several years to grow a clone which is not dangerously and permanently insane using Spaarti cloning cylinders (I doubt that the Emperor knew about ysalanmiri "cheat" nor would have utilized it); and the Kaminoan cloning method was slow as well. So Palpatine could end up with mentally unbalanced, violent and often amnesiac apprentice with considerable Force potential and power; the "apprentice" couldn't manipulate the Force at all; or growing the clone would take years (in which case it might be more worthwile to seek an entirely new apprentice).

And remember, that C'baoth's Luuke was rather animalistic creature. I don't believe that Palpatine would have desired such a thing as his apprentice.

Darth Hoth wrote:Upon re-reading The Last Command, I noticed the detail of Luuke's cloning. Apparently, the Emperor had kept Luke's cut-off hand in his uberduper-secret facility at Mount Tantiss for some time even before his death. About the only reasonable use he could have had for it would be extracting DNA (he does not strike me as a Chaos Lord-style villain who takes pleasure in being surrounded by dead body parts).

Palpatine does however enjoy keeping momentos of his enemies and allies; people who have challenged him - surely Luke's hand qualifies?

Darth Hoth wrote:So, my question is, why did the Emperor not clone Luke? Well, perhaps he thought it had some symbolic value to turn him fair and square, or perhaps he was merely overconfident at Endor. But at the end of that battle, he clearly gave up on Luke. Hence, the very most reasonable thing for him to do once reborn would be to clone the boy (Or, even, why not a new Vader?), not stagger around in two more incarnations attempting to turn him. If a clone-mad Jedi asshat could think it up, why would Palpatine not? Especially if he had had the idea before? And in particular when he himself needed a new clone template? He was growing insane, certainly, but was it that severe? Even in Dark Empire, he never appears as far off his track as C'baoth was.

(I know that there are obvious out of universe reasons; I was merely wondering how one might rationalise it in-universe.)

You're assuming all that goes into one's potential is genetic makeup. That's a totally unjustified and extreme assumption. C'boath's Luuke was as much a creature of Luke's genetic makeup as it was C'boath's sinister intellect and will; its mind and will was totally dependent on C'boath (how he was kept viable while C'boath was cut-off by the Force due to the ysalamiri is a mystery; perhaps GEN Covell only died because the process was incomplete, and once completed the subject may live without constant control by the manipulator, or perhaps Luuke was kept in stasis until C'boath regained control of the Force and released and summoned him through it).

DEATH wrote:Easily, by the fact that Clones due very funky, very bad things to the Force even without being force sensitive. (The Luuke clone was dangerous mainly due to messing Luke up and drastically reducing his powers), and two Clones together would presumably have the same effect on each other.
Not to mention that Clonetrooper style indoctrination would probably not work that well with violent, aggressive, independent dark side powered leaders. (The best use for the clone).

Simply, not even Palpatine was crazy enough to clone an army of Luukes all at once, even he kept his clones mindless and only went into one at a time. (that's assuming he had the choice).

I was under the impression that Luke had trouble with Luuke because he was specifically a clone of himself, not that clones generally caused problems with the Force. Should he not have noticed such at first with C'baoth, then, or should not all these objections be equally valid in respect to Palpatine's own genetic offspring? Zahn is more or less alone among the authors to ascribe clones special Force signatures, and even then they appear mostly to register as an oddity, not a disruptive phenomenon.

You are conflating two different things. Luuke felt weird to Luke because they are identical on a certain level (viz. the "resonating" in the Force which causes Spaarti clones' clone madness). When Luke "feels" the clones in the Hand of Thrawn duology, this is because they are masses of identical people with identical flash-imprints. Are you going to respond to me pointing out your whole argument is fundamentally premised on an unjustified and extreme assumption that all potential is sourced with genetics?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Palpatine does however enjoy keeping momentos of his enemies and allies; people who have challenged him - surely Luke's hand qualifies?

Well, that would be reasonable. It still appears unlike him to miss such an obvious use for it, though, especially with his great familiarity with cloning.

You're assuming all that goes into one's potential is genetic makeup. That's a totally unjustified and extreme assumption.

I assumed that Force potential was inborn, as per the Midichlorians of the prequels. Actual prowess would be determined by training, but the ability to reach the upper levels of potency would be determined genetically, much as is the case with intelligence.

C'boath's Luuke was as much a creature of Luke's genetic makeup as it was C'boath's sinister intellect and will; its mind and will was totally dependent on C'boath (how he was kept viable while C'boath was cut-off by the Force due to the ysalamiri is a mystery; perhaps GEN Covell only died because the process was incomplete, and once completed the subject may live without constant control by the manipulator, or perhaps Luuke was kept in stasis until C'boath regained control of the Force and released and summoned him through it).

But is there any reason why the Emperor would necessarily rely on the same crude mind-control techniques as an unstable, clone-mad half-Jedi, powerful but apparently not very well versed in the finer points of Force training? Palpatine could use ordinary flash-learning to mold a Luke clone in his own image, or he could raise it as a child himself as he had done with Maul, or as Thrawn planned to do with an eventual next-generation C'baoth clone. Time, except in the case of a new genetic template for his clone bodies (for which personality or training would not be necessary or even useful in any case), should not have been a great concern to Palpatine the Undying.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You are conflating two different things. Luuke felt weird to Luke because they are identical on a certain level (viz. the "resonating" in the Force which causes Spaarti clones' clone madness). When Luke "feels" the clones in the Hand of Thrawn duology, this is because they are masses of identical people with identical flash-imprints. Are you going to respond to me pointing out your whole argument is fundamentally premised on an unjustified and extreme assumption that all potential is sourced with genetics?

Then it appears that we essentially agree; I thought Luuke's effect on Luke was due to exactly that, and that the problem would not be present with any clone, just one a direct copy of the Force-user in question.

If the assumption is unjustified, what would be the whole point with the "Midichlorians" measure of the prequels? It evidently does not show the actual Force knowledge of an individual, since baby Anakin was stronger than Yoda, but merely the potential for power. Which would then be dependent, at least to a large extent, on genetics.

Darth Hoth wrote:I assumed that Force potential was inborn, as per the Midichlorians of the prequels. Actual prowess would be determined by training, but the ability to reach the upper levels of potency would be determined genetically, much as is the case with intelligence.

Except Force sensitivity is much rarer than many genetic diseases and oddities. Furthermore, a biological indicator which can be tested does not imply that midichlorians create Force sensitivity (otherwise why not artificially culture them and inject them into yourself for a boost?). This is simplistic thinking. All this means is that midichlorian counts are typically correlated with Force sensitivity. How about midichlorians grow to higher equilibrium populations in Force sensitive subjects? Why not that Force sensitivity causes higher counts of midichlorians, as opposed to the other way around? Or perhaps that a common basic trait causes both of them. Furthermore, isolating and copying the chromosomal DNA from the nucleus of Luke's cells will not create a similar population of symbiotes that the living subject had (assuming midichlorians are comparable to say, mitochondria). Again, why is it assumed Force sensitivity is purely based on genetics? All kinds of things run in families that are not genetic (certain habits and behavior are picked up through nuture, as opposed to nature; AIDS and disease are transmitted from parent to child - it is not a genetic disease).

In short, your entire argument is based on poor logic and ignorance of biology. There is no reason that Force sensitivity should be completely copied in a biological clone, and plenty of logical cause and evidence to suggest that is unlikely.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Except Force sensitivity is much rarer than many genetic diseases and oddities. Furthermore, a biological indicator which can be tested does not imply that midichlorians create Force sensitivity (otherwise why not artificially culture them and inject them into yourself for a boost?). This is simplistic thinking. All this means is that midichlorian counts are typically correlated with Force sensitivity. How about midichlorians grow to higher equilibrium populations in Force sensitive subjects? Why not that Force sensitivity causes higher counts of midichlorians, as opposed to the other way around? Or perhaps that a common basic trait causes both of them. Furthermore, isolating and copying the chromosomal DNA from the nucleus of Luke's cells will not create a similar population of symbiotes that the living subject had (assuming midichlorians are comparable to say, mitochondria). Again, why is it assumed Force sensitivity is purely based on genetics? All kinds of things run in families that are not genetic (certain habits and behavior are picked up through nuture, as opposed to nature; AIDS and disease are transmitted from parent to child - it is not a genetic disease).

My assumption was merely the correlation with the Midichlorians, not that they were themselves the cause of Force-sensitivity; such would be unreasonable, given that spirits entirely bereft of corporeal forms (and, therefore, symbionts) have performed great feats of Force prowess.

The reasoning that the factor causing Force-sensitivity would not be genetic is interesting, but what other quantifiable factor could be responsible for it? The rise of Force power in even unknowing individuals (e.g. Dessel) appears to preclude environmental factors, in that it is not taught or learned (although one could perhaps argue that we see too little of his background to be certain of this), and if it was an infectious disease such as AIDS (perhaps, then, with Midichlorians as its agent), it would be strange why none but a Force-user's own children contracts it, something that is not the case with such (as we know, the "Sith magic bullshit" blood transfusion with General Grievous failed, whereas in such a case it should have succeeded).

Tiriol wrote:Furthermore, it takes several years to grow a clone which is not dangerously and permanently insane using Spaarti cloning cylinders (I doubt that the Emperor knew about ysalanmiri "cheat" nor would have utilized it); and the Kaminoan cloning method was slow as well.

IIRC, they were able to significantly perfect the process later in the Clone Wars, and the cylinders at Mount Tantiss were retconned as being older models or that Thrawn's technicians didn't know what they were doing. At any rate, I believe at one point the Empire could culture stable clones in mere months without the ysalamiri hack. This would help explain why the GAR was still favoring clones three years into the war and the Imperial Marines decades later.

It is likely Force Sensitivity is neither hereditary, nor even genetic. Otherwise, the massive survival advantages it confers would strongly push selective pressures toward generating entire Force Sensitive populations of every species that has the potential to produce sensitives.

The Force being strong in the Skywalker family is likely due to the wonky will of the Force* rather than being the rule.

Thus, without special procedures, a clone of a Force sensitive may simply be without Force sensitivity.


* - as Obi-Wan explain quite well, even as the resident experts, the Jedi have a poor understanding of the Force.. such that "the will of the Force" they speak of can be likened to a man speaking of "the will of a river to flow to the sea" when he does not understand gravity.
Solves all our problems.
This is the mystical and fantastic part of the fiction, after all.

As was noted on the OTC revelations page, it appears that force use is not genetic. Perhaps genetics plays a roll in making it more likely that you will be able to touch the force, but it can't be a guarantee, else natural selection would have resulted in everyone being a force user.

To say nothing of the fact that the Dorsk clones of Khomm were genetically identical, but only two of them (Dorsk 81 and Dorsk 82) were Force-sensitive, and that Callista Ming was able to transfer her soul into a computer and then back into a living body. The Force's physical properties are not well understood, and certainly do not conform to a purely genetic characteristic.

Palpatine's success at cloning his own body can probably be attributed to his unique status as a metaphysicist, geneticist, alchemist, and esotericist with infinite resources and the greatest scientific minds of the generation at his beck and call. Even then, however, it is an assumption that this success was attributable to genetics; he has demonstrated the ability to 'imbue' others with the Force, and may have been able to imprint his own clones in such a fashion.

Darth Hoth wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Except Force sensitivity is much rarer than many genetic diseases and oddities. Furthermore, a biological indicator which can be tested does not imply that midichlorians create Force sensitivity (otherwise why not artificially culture them and inject them into yourself for a boost?). This is simplistic thinking. All this means is that midichlorian counts are typically correlated with Force sensitivity. How about midichlorians grow to higher equilibrium populations in Force sensitive subjects? Why not that Force sensitivity causes higher counts of midichlorians, as opposed to the other way around? Or perhaps that a common basic trait causes both of them. Furthermore, isolating and copying the chromosomal DNA from the nucleus of Luke's cells will not create a similar population of symbiotes that the living subject had (assuming midichlorians are comparable to say, mitochondria). Again, why is it assumed Force sensitivity is purely based on genetics? All kinds of things run in families that are not genetic (certain habits and behavior are picked up through nuture, as opposed to nature; AIDS and disease are transmitted from parent to child - it is not a genetic disease).

My assumption was merely the correlation with the Midichlorians, not that they were themselves the cause of Force-sensitivity; such would be unreasonable, given that spirits entirely bereft of corporeal forms (and, therefore, symbionts) have performed great feats of Force prowess.

The reasoning that the factor causing Force-sensitivity would not be genetic is interesting, but what other quantifiable factor could be responsible for it? The rise of Force power in even unknowing individuals (e.g. Dessel) appears to preclude environmental factors, in that it is not taught or learned (although one could perhaps argue that we see too little of his background to be certain of this), and if it was an infectious disease such as AIDS (perhaps, then, with Midichlorians as its agent), it would be strange why none but a Force-user's own children contracts it, something that is not the case with such (as we know, the "Sith magic bullshit" blood transfusion with General Grievous failed, whereas in such a case it should have succeeded).

Not everything has to be reductionist down to first principles. We can deduce from the evidence it does not arise from genetics alone (though the genetics are clearly somesort of pre- or co-requisite). It is hereditary, and not mundanely biological or genetic. Sometimes you cannot describe fictional metaphysics with anything more satisfying than speculation. It is enough to say that the explicit evidence and implicit evidence rules out the seeming contradiction you posed in the OP.

Publius wrote:To say nothing of the fact that the Dorsk clones of Khomm were genetically identical, but only two of them (Dorsk 81 and Dorsk 82) were Force-sensitive, and that Callista Ming was able to transfer her soul into a computer and then back into a living body. The Force's physical properties are not well understood, and certainly do not conform to a purely genetic characteristic.

Palpatine's success at cloning his own body can probably be attributed to his unique status as a metaphysicist, geneticist, alchemist, and esotericist with infinite resources and the greatest scientific minds of the generation at his beck and call. Even then, however, it is an assumption that this success was attributable to genetics; he has demonstrated the ability to 'imbue' others with the Force, and may have been able to imprint his own clones in such a fashion.

Point conceded to you and Illuminatus. In the Dorsk case alone, however, was it not the genetic template that was inadvertently altered (corrupted, one might perhaps say)? It was some time since last I examined the KJA books, so I might be mistaken, but that is how I remember that it was explained.

No one really bothered explaining it adequately; it just happened in the eighty-first and eighty-second iterations and none of the others.

Is that so? Hm, perhaps there was something elsewhere, in Darksaber or some Essential Guide. I shall see if I can find anything.

But why is it, then, that the C'baoth clone was, (supposedly,) as powerful a force user as the original C'baoth? Did Palpatine actively work with the clone while it was being grown, so that it would have that potential? If so, then it jumps back to the original question, why would Palpatine not just grow a clone, infuse them with force potential, and make sure they are already subservient to his will?

Aasharu wrote:But why is it, then, that the C'baoth clone was, (supposedly,) as powerful a force user as the original C'baoth? Did Palpatine actively work with the clone while it was being grown, so that it would have that potential? If so, then it jumps back to the original question, why would Palpatine not just grow a clone, infuse them with force potential, and make sure they are already subservient to his will?

Some of the limitations may be overcome, but it bares repeating that C'boath was one of the only cloned dark siders in Palpatine's retinue. Perhaps he was especially suited for clone duplication where most of his potential could be reproduced in the copy. The fact of the matter was Luuke was obviously not on the same plane as Luke and one shouldn't take the exception to the rule (C'boath) and beg the question of incompetence or stupidity on Palpatine's part when it may simply be a case of it being possible with C'boath for some reason and not practical in most cases. Not to mention, Luke Skywalker is uniquely gifted with immense potential, he is sought as a replacement for Anakin Skywalker, the being with the greatest inborn potential in the Force to date during the events of Revenge of the Sith. Also, Anakin Skywalker as Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith reflects that Luke's inborn potential eclipses even his (which may indicate that Luke Skywalker is potentially more powerful than the Chosen One of Jedi lore, Anakin Skywalker, at his peak).

Not to return to the original debate, but what is the evidence for Luuke being weaker than Luke? I thought his inferior skills could be fairly easily attributable to extensive brainwashing and/or shortened and inferior training by C'baoth.

The evidence? Why would the default assumption be that a quick clone job which is mind-wiped and controlled by someone else is equivalent to the original article, uniquely gifted and having years of self-training and experience?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The evidence? Why would the default assumption be that a quick clone job which is mind-wiped and controlled by someone else is equivalent to the original article, uniquely gifted and having years of self-training and experience?

What is the evidence for him being inherently weaker in the Force, as opposed to simply having inferior training?

Darth Hoth wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The evidence? Why would the default assumption be that a quick clone job which is mind-wiped and controlled by someone else is equivalent to the original article, uniquely gifted and having years of self-training and experience?

My mistake: What is the evidence for him being inherently weaker in the Force, as opposed to simply having inferior training?

None. But you continue to pose the following scenario. No one does it because they're ignorant, stupid, or incompetent, rather than the preferable alternative that no one does it because its impossible, impractical, difficult, or carries undesirable side-effects. Again, there's no reason they should be equal if its established that Force potential is not reduced to purely genetic indicators - which is the information copied by a cloning process.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Darth Hoth wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The evidence? Why would the default assumption be that a quick clone job which is mind-wiped and controlled by someone else is equivalent to the original article, uniquely gifted and having years of self-training and experience?

My mistake: What is the evidence for him being inherently weaker in the Force, as opposed to simply having inferior training?

None. But you continue to pose the following scenario. No one does it because they're ignorant, stupid, or incompetent, rather than the preferable alternative that no one does it because its impossible, impractical, difficult, or carries undesirable side-effects. Again, there's no reason they should be equal if its established that Force potential is not reduced to purely genetic indicators - which is the information copied by a cloning process.

I guess I am still influenced by Thrawn's ideas on cloning...

Would that perhaps mean that Force sensitivity would be only partially transferred to a clone? That could perhaps tie into the idea that Palpatine's clone bodies degenerated faster than his original body, even before the sabotage; it "used up" some Force reserve of the body more quickly or whatnots.