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A question for those of you who submit to the horrors of reading EU and Michael Stackpole, is Corran Horn a Mary Sue?

I voted no. Becuase he does have crippling character flaws (arrogance etc) and loses most of his fights and gets his ass rescued by girls on a regular basis.

I don't think he's a mary sue, just not as well written as he could be.

On and before someone brings up I,Jedi that scene doesn't involve Corran beating Luke, first its training exercise. Sparring is different from an actual fight. Horn wouldn't have learnt anything if Luke just clean his clock, 2nd) Luke whups Corran with a force wall at the end of the fight which is the one time he's make a full hearted effort. 3rd) There's a fightscene later when Luke effortless whups six pseudi-jedi. Corran can't even manage one.

Most of the stuff written about Corran is written from his perspective and his arrogance mainly shades the prose to make him look good. If you look at what he actually does he's not all that great.

There's no question. His "flaws" are arbitrary and inane (inability to use telekinesis? Come on.), and his strengths are absurd and ridiculous (ability to completely drain a lightsaber of energy and then use that through the force).

It's been years since I read any of the stories he was in, but I remember literally putting books down and sighing. I voted "Yes", and I clicked with extreme prejudice.

Master of Ossus wrote:There's no question. His "flaws" are arbitrary and inane (inability to use telekinesis? Come on.), and his strengths are absurd and ridiculous (ability to completely drain a lightsaber of energy and then use that through the force).

That was Neeja, his grandfather, a fully trained Jedi Master who did that as his final act.

His flaws are more like arrogance and over confidence in his abilities. (his constant and false suspicion of Tycho in the X-wing books) Inablillity ot accept other points of view (most of his friction with Luke in I,Jedi) missing of fine details (leading to his confrontation of Exar Kun, thinking him powerless, Kun noted he'd ignored something he'd blatantly done in the real world; dissolving the holocron and then proceeded to beat the crap out of him until Mara Jade came to his aide.) and crippling obsession with what his father would have though, which his pretty much his motivation in all X-Wing books and I,Jedi.

When you get down to it. Horn's a mediocre Jedi and a mediocre pilot. His two previous careers were police man: (were his daddy propped him if Side Trip is anything to go by.) and Pilot, both of which latent force abillities would aid greatly in.

I voted yes even though I really don't mind the character much. Rather like the X wing books so...

I essentially agree with Crazedwraith.

I voted yes. The best thing about the X-Wing books was when Aaron Allston was writing them. Fun stuff happened.

Crazedwraith wrote: When you get down to it. Horn's a mediocre Jedi and a mediocre pilot. His two previous careers were police man: (were his daddy propped him if Side Trip is anything to go by.) and Pilot, both of which latent force abillities would aid greatly in.

That would actually be relevant in an objective analysis, which this is not. The hallmarks of a Mary Sue hinge on presentation. And in Corran's case, the presentation is solely designed to further the idea of Corran being the biggest hero there ever was. His weaknesses are either there for him to move beyond (thus proving what a big man he is), or not shown as flaws at all. Case in point: when Wizards of the Coast wanted to stat him in game terms, his level came out as higher than that of NJO Luke Skywalker, presumably to shoehorn in all of Corran's awesome abilities.

Corran Horn is a fucking textbook Marty Stu. It's hard to get any closer. He's an action god in any element, he gets all the chicks (the women fight over him), the heroes accept him as an equal (when he's not kicking their asses in their respective area of expertise, of course), he has special powers that place him off the scale, and he has weaknesses that can be compensated for without undue trouble (Corran, for instance, is fully capable of using Telekinesis if you infuse him with energy). Being a paragon of justice, Corran knows the bad guys on sight (unless they are hot women who hit on him), and regularly does the impossible with a wink and a smarmy quip. His arrogance is swiftly relabeled as 'confidence' after getting token treatment, with the author apparently oblivious to the fact that Corran only grows progressively more odious as the books continue.

As for the training scene in I, Jedi, it's completely ridiculous for anyone who's fenced. A skilled swordsman facing an amateur would not allow him within the range required for fisticuffs; it's a simple contrievance for Corran to show Luke up.

Eleas wrote: Corran Horn is a fucking textbook Marty Stu. It's hard to get any closer. He's an action god in any element, he gets all the chicks (the women fight over him),

A fair point. Mirax, Ersri and the warlord in I,Jedi, all fall for him but other than that, most of the women don't.

the heroes accept him as an equal (when he's not kicking their asses in their respective area of expertise, of course),

Say what? Wedge treats him as his subordinate and pretty much the way he treats everyone but doesn't hesitate to yell at him if need be. Pretty much all the other Rogues treat him as their peer because that's what he is. As do most of the Jedi, except Ganner who doesn't treat him with respect.

And other than supposedly his fight with Luke, when has he shown up main characters in their field?

he has special powers that place him off the scale, and he has weaknesses that can be compensated for without undue trouble (Corran, for instance, is fully capable of using Telekinesis if you infuse him with energy)

Special powers greater than the average Jedi? I don't think so. He does mind tricks. The only notable think is the energy one which is good for a stray blaster bolt or two.

TK is pretty much the root of all jedi awesomeness. speed, jumps, agility etc, which Corran also doesn't have.

. Being a paragon of justice, Corran knows the bad guys on sight (unless they are hot women who hit on him),

Or Tycho...

and regularly does the impossible with a wink and a smarmy quip.

Really? Like when?

His arrogance is swiftly relabeled as 'confidence' after getting token treatment, with the author apparently oblivious to the fact that Corran only grows progressively more odious as the books continue.

Again, most of Corran is from his own point of view, so of course he doesn't recognise his arrogance.

As for the training scene in I, Jedi, it's completely ridiculous for anyone who's fenced. A skilled swordsman facing an amateur would not allow him within the range required for fisticuffs; it's a simple contrievance for Corran to show Luke up.

Or proves that the only reason someone as unskilled as Corran can even touch Luke is if he's really out of the game, which was kinda of the point of the scene: Luke being all emo and despondent over Gantoris and Exar Kun and so forth. So Corran was trying to get him to actually do something.

Again though, Corran's own plan utterly, utterly fails and gets him thrown against temple walls for a while before he gets rescued so how is that any better?

I think if you take the books, especially I, Jedi, at face value in terms of what Horn's saying he can come across as a Mary Sue, but that's mostly down to his self-image, which is so prominent because of the first-person narration. Like Crazedwraith said, when you look at what he's really done I'd say he has too many flaws and too many failures to be a Mary Sue.

Say what? Wedge treats him as his subordinate and pretty much the way he treats everyone but doesn't hesitate to yell at him if need be. Pretty much all the other Rogues treat him as their peer because that's what he is. As do most of the Jedi, except Ganner who doesn't treat him with respect.

Except for when, in I, Jedi, he emerges as the natural leader of the Jedi in the temple fighting against Kun, presumably due to some strange form of anti-charisma on his part. Or his stunts in Lusankya, where he quickly becomes the last, best hope for escape. Little things like that.

And other than supposedly his fight with Luke, when has he shown up main characters in their field?

Allright, fair point. He's condescending and cavalier, but he doesn't actually outdo the main chars continuously.

Special powers greater than the average Jedi? I don't think so. He does mind tricks. The only notable think is the energy one which is good for a stray blaster bolt or two.

This is edging from subjectivism into the realm of outright lying. He survived being inside a building rigged for demolition and fitted with several laser-pumped mines. That's a bit beyond 'a stray blaster bolt or two'. What you think is, furthermore, irrelevant when looking at the magnitude of his mind trick powers, which is, in a word, ridiculous.

TK is pretty much the root of all jedi awesomeness. speed, jumps, agility etc, which Corran also doesn't have.

Except when he's shot at, of course, which never happens... oh, wait.

Or Tycho...

Or Tycho. That was before Corran was dubbed a saint, where I had less of a problem with the bastard.

and regularly does the impossible with a wink and a smarmy quip.

Really? Like when?

Like when Corran (on the planet), realizing there's an Imperial SSD in orbit, simply makes Tavira on its bridge think the Sun Crusher is coming toward her, causing her to order a retreat for her entire fleet, without breaking a sweat. "Problem solved."

*retch*

Again, most of Corran is from his own point of view, so of course he doesn't recognise his arrogance.

Except this is not mirrored in the opinions of others. Unlike in the case of, say, Kell Tainer, where we see a proper reaction to this sort of childish behaviour,

Or proves that the only reason someone as unskilled as Corran can even touch Luke is if he's really out of the game, which was kinda of the point of the scene: Luke being all emo and despondent over Gantoris and Exar Kun and so forth. So Corran was trying to get him to actually do something.

Exactly. Contrieved, as I said.

Again though, Corran's own plan utterly, utterly fails and gets him thrown against temple walls for a while before he gets rescued so how is that any better?

Did we even read the same book? He fucking lectured Luke Skywalker on how to man up and be a real Jedi. And I further note that you simply snipped the observation I made on WotC and their completely accidental take on Corran. Curious, innit?

Someone told me a long time ago that after reading "I, Jedi" they felt that it was a rip off of the plot of "Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast" (or vice versa).

I never read the book, so can anyone tell me.. is that a fair assessment?

Is Corran Horn basically JK2's Kyle Katarn?

Kurgan wrote:Someone told me a long time ago that after reading "I, Jedi" they felt that it was a rip off of the plot of "Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast" (or vice versa).

I never read the book, so can anyone tell me.. is that a fair assessment?

Is Corran Horn basically JK2's Kyle Katarn?

Yes, except that he's a dramatically worse character in all respects. It really just annoyed me that I, Jedi was even about Corran and NOT Kyle, since Kyle would've been an infinitely better choice for the story.... except that he doesn't also go by the name Michael Stackpole.

If memory serves, 'I, Jedi' was published a goodly time before JK2 so if anything, it's the latter that plagiarizes.
And while there ARE similarities between the two plots-rebel Jedi is trying to rescue the woman he loves-there's significant DIFFERENCES, too. For starters, Corran for the entire book tried to find his wife (Mirax, wasn't it?) and capitalized on his Jedi abilities all the time. Kyle had REJECTED his Jedi heritage and only reclaimed it (I'd love to see how they managed to explain that one outside of game mechanics) because he thought Jen was DEAD and wanted revenge.
Furthermore, Corran's attitude towards Luke is not all that similar to Kyle's other than both of them weren't in awe of him. Kyle was bitter, angry and a tad disrespectful in the Tattooine training missions, and varied between sarcastic, cynic and professional when they met again on that asteroid base thingy.. He was NEVER arrogant and lecturing.

Eleas wrote:

Say what? Wedge treats him as his subordinate and pretty much the way he treats everyone but doesn't hesitate to yell at him if need be. Pretty much all the other Rogues treat him as their peer because that's what he is. As do most of the Jedi, except Ganner who doesn't treat him with respect.

Except for when, in I, Jedi, he emerges as the natural leader of the Jedi in the temple fighting against Kun, presumably due to some strange form of anti-charisma on his part. Or his stunts in Lusankya, where he quickly becomes the last, best hope for escape. Little things like that.

He's just a fairly stable and not particularly ambitious person. Before Mirax disappeared, he was more or less content to simply be a New Republic Officer, if I remember I, Jedi right.

Special powers greater than the average Jedi? I don't think so. He does mind tricks. The only notable think is the energy one which is good for a stray blaster bolt or two.

This is edging from subjectivism into the realm of outright lying. He survived being inside a building rigged for demolition and fitted with several laser-pumped mines. That's a bit beyond 'a stray blaster bolt or two'. What you think is, furthermore, irrelevant when looking at the magnitude of his mind trick powers, which is, in a word, ridiculous.

I'll admit the "energy channelling" was somewhat ridiculous at the point. But at the same time, I wouldn't call his "mind trick" powers ridiculous; most of his illusions lasted, what, a few seconds to minutes at most, like the "imaginarily" lifting the boulder on Yavin 4?

Did we even read the same book? He fucking lectured Luke Skywalker on how to man up and be a real Jedi. And I further note that you simply snipped the observation I made on WotC and their completely accidental take on Corran. Curious, innit?

He got angry at Luke for criticizing him for leaving the Praxeum, and for Luke's kind of black-and-white view on the Force, by pointing out that he'd wasn't the type of guy to lose control and let his anger take over. I don't call that a lecture; I call that being defensive,and he clearly was in that case.

At the same time, there is some Mary Sue-ish to him; I think he's a kind of better avatar of what Stackpole would like to be in the SW universe. His personality is somewhat similar to the personality of the main hero in his fantasy series, the book where the guy wore a mask after reaching adulthood or what not.

Eleas wrote: Did we even read the same book? He fucking lectured Luke Skywalker on how to man up and be a real Jedi.

The condescending lecture delivered by the superior hero is something Stackpole can't resist. The man is consistent in his bad habits.

Guardsman Bass wrote:He got angry at Luke for criticizing him for leaving the Praxeum, and for Luke's kind of black-and-white view on the Force, by pointing out that he'd wasn't the type of guy to lose control and let his anger take over. I don't call that a lecture; I call that being defensive,and he clearly was in that case.

This is my main sour point with Corran Horn: the man who has not yet received extensive Jedi training (an introductory course, at best) and whose knowledge of the Force is limited to hearsay muddled by decades of Imperial oppression on all things with "Force" in it lectures Luke Skywalker on the nature of the dark side and of the Force. Master Skywalker participated in the Rebellion and was taught by the greatest Jedi Master of all time; he continued to serve the New Republic even after stepping down from military duties and later he was taught by the mad Jedi clone Joruus C'baoth about his twisted view of the Force and by the Emperor himself.

Yet Corran Horn presumes that he understands the dark side more due to the fact that he lived a life of catching criminals. While it does give a rather good view of the nasty side of sentient nature (and thus of the dark side), Horn presumes that his experiences make him more wise in the ways of the Force and more able to understand its dark side than Master Skywalker.

This arrogance is not limited to Horn, though: Mara Jade also challenged Skywalker's view of the Force and Jacen Solo was also fond of it. It seems that whichever character is favored by the author gets his or her dose of arrogance and starts lecturing on Luke. The man has gone through a patience course spanning decades when everyone and their mother wants to challenge him.

I wish there was a "borderline" option.

Tiriol wrote:This arrogance is not limited to Horn, though: Mara Jade also challenged Skywalker's view of the Force and Jacen Solo was also fond of it. It seems that whichever character is favored by the author gets his or her dose of arrogance and starts lecturing on Luke. The man has gone through a patience course spanning decades when everyone and their mother wants to challenge him.

While I don't disagree with you about Jacen, the only time i can recall Mara lecturing him before they got married was in Specter of the Past. He asked her what he was doing wrong.

About Corran, he's borderline, but only because of the scene in I, Jedi where he realizes that Tycho could kick his ass in a starfighter.

This is my main sour point with Corran Horn: the man who has not yet received extensive Jedi training (an introductory course, at best) and whose knowledge of the Force is limited to hearsay muddled by decades of Imperial oppression on all things with "Force" in it lectures Luke Skywalker on the nature of the dark side and of the Force. Master Skywalker participated in the Rebellion and was taught by the greatest Jedi Master of all time; he continued to serve the New Republic even after stepping down from military duties and later he was taught by the mad Jedi clone Joruus C'baoth about his twisted view of the Force and by the Emperor himself.

He didn't claim that he understood the Dark Side more than Luke, IIRC; he more or less reacted angrily to Luke's comment that he would be no match for the Dark Side if he left training, since he'd have no idea what to expect or something like that.

One of the reasons why I like Corran Horn is that he actually has to learn his own lesson in I, Jedi. You see him above, talking about how he's always toed the line, never stepping across in corruption or the like; but when he's with Tavira, he has a moment where realizes that he's been treading rather perilously close to that line, and has been violating it in spirit if not in action.

Eleas wrote: Except for when, in I, Jedi, he emerges as the natural leader of the Jedi in the temple fighting against Kun, presumably due to some strange form of anti-charisma on his part. Or his stunts in Lusankya, where he quickly becomes the last, best hope for escape. Little things like that.

And as 'natural leader' he fails completely and utterly and I'll once again mention him being tossed about like a rag doll by Exar Kun until he gets rescued.

And as for Lusankya, well he escapes himself, and then does nothing about it for 3 years until Isar gives them back as part of a dastardly plan. Great going there on the investigation front, Corran.

Special powers greater than the average Jedi? I don't think so. He does mind tricks. The only notable think is the energy one which is good for a stray blaster bolt or two.

This is edging from subjectivism into the realm of outright lying. He survived being inside a building rigged for demolition and fitted with several laser-pumped mines. That's a bit beyond 'a stray blaster bolt or two'. What you think is, furthermore, irrelevant when looking at the magnitude of his mind trick powers, which is, in a word, ridiculous.

... You're right. In my defence its been a while since I read I,Jedi in detail, but that was limited energy conversion to TK then shoving most of the explosion upwards. Yes quite high level, but till now where near as high as Luke's highest feats. (rebuilting Vader's palace with just TK mayhaps?)

TK is pretty much the root of all jedi awesomeness. speed, jumps, agility etc, which Corran also doesn't have.

Except when he's shot at, of course, which never happens... oh, wait.

It's not like he shoots himself regular and does that stuff. When he's shot at, he deflects it like any other jedi, with a lightsabre.

Or Tycho...[/quote]

Or Tycho. That was before Corran was dubbed a saint, where I had less of a problem with the bastard.[/quote]

So where did this problem start for you I, Jedi? I'll concede its probably the worst offender.

and regularly does the impossible with a wink and a smarmy quip.

Really? Like when?

Like when Corran (on the planet), realizing there's an Imperial SSD in orbit, simply makes Tavira on its bridge think the Sun Crusher is coming toward her, causing her to order a retreat for her entire fleet, without breaking a sweat. "Problem solved."

*retch*[/quote]
I'll have to conede that becuase, I'd completely forgotten it.

Again, most of Corran is from his own point of view, so of course he doesn't recognise his arrogance.

Except this is not mirrored in the opinions of others. Unlike in the case of, say, Kell Tainer, where we see a proper reaction to this sort of childish behaviour,

Or proves that the only reason someone as unskilled as Corran can even touch Luke is if he's really out of the game, which was kinda of the point of the scene: Luke being all emo and despondent over Gantoris and Exar Kun and so forth. So Corran was trying to get him to actually do something.

Exactly. Contrieved, as I said.[/quote]
Contrived, yes. But contrived to show how badly Luke is doing as opposed to showing how awesome Corran is. Comapre with alter on when Lukes on fully form and effortlessly takes out half a dozen jenasaari. Corran can't manage one.

Did we even read the same book? He fucking lectured Luke Skywalker on how to man up and be a real Jedi.

If I recall correctly the gist of that speech was: "You're in charge. Act like it." becuase Luke was hiding away doing nothing. (which is KJA's deal I assume rather than Stackpoles)

And I further note that you simply snipped the observation I made on WotC and their completely accidental take on Corran. Curious, innit?

If Horn is a Stackpole Mary Sue then what the WotC write about him is hardly relevant. And thats more a condemning of NJO Luke than glorfication of Corran. NJO Luke was more or less a non-force weilding wuss, at least up until Destiny's Way.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Eleas wrote: Except for when, in I, Jedi, he emerges as the natural leader of the Jedi in the temple fighting against Kun, presumably due to some strange form of anti-charisma on his part. Or his stunts in Lusankya, where he quickly becomes the last, best hope for escape. Little things like that.

And as 'natural leader' he fails completely and utterly and I'll once again mention him being tossed about like a rag doll by Exar Kun until he gets rescued.

And as for Lusankya, well he escapes himself, and then does nothing about it for 3 years until Isar gives them back as part of a dastardly plan. Great going there on the investigation front, Corran.

As I see it, that is at least in large part an attempt rationalise some of KJA's writing. The Jedi apprentices would likely not just mill around crying, "Raaah! The Dark Side is out for us!", but rather attempt to organise some kind of response. And as KJA precluded any of his characters taking charge, well, Corran had to.

This is edging from subjectivism into the realm of outright lying. He survived being inside a building rigged for demolition and fitted with several laser-pumped mines. That's a bit beyond 'a stray blaster bolt or two'. What you think is, furthermore, irrelevant when looking at the magnitude of his mind trick powers, which is, in a word, ridiculous.

... You're right. In my defence its been a while since I read I,Jedi in detail, but that was limited energy conversion to TK then shoving most of the explosion upwards. Yes quite high level, but till now where near as high as Luke's highest feats. (rebuilting Vader's palace with just TK mayhaps?)

That one, I shall have to agree with as well, that is somewhat wanked.

Like when Corran (on the planet), realizing there's an Imperial SSD in orbit, simply makes Tavira on its bridge think the Sun Crusher is coming toward her, causing her to order a retreat for her entire fleet, without breaking a sweat. "Problem solved."

*retch*

I'll have to conede that becuase, I'd completely forgotten it.

Every Jedi in the galaxy can pull shit like that. Luke did it way back in the Marvel comics, set in continuity before RotJ, and even Leia mindfucked Imperial gunners in Dark Empire on a planet full of Dark Side Adepts. Yes, Leia, who most of the time cannot switch off the light with her TK.

Except this is not mirrored in the opinions of others. Unlike in the case of, say, Kell Tainer, where we see a proper reaction to this sort of childish behaviour,

Eh? I distinctly remember Wedge beating down his overblown ego in the very first X-wing book. He wrote him up as the worst on an exercise, and then basically told him to grow up when he whined about it. The other Rogues also told him what a prick he was all over the first half of the novel.

Exactly. Contrieved, as I said.

Contrived, yes. But contrived to show how badly Luke is doing as opposed to showing how awesome Corran is. Comapre with alter on when Lukes on fully form and effortlessly takes out half a dozen jenasaari. Corran can't manage one.

This is KJA retarded emo Luke we are discussing. He needed someone to grab him by the shoulders and shake him.

Did we even read the same book? He fucking lectured Luke Skywalker on how to man up and be a real Jedi.

If I recall correctly the gist of that speech was: "You're in charge. Act like it." becuase Luke was hiding away doing nothing. (which is KJA's deal I assume rather than Stackpoles)

This is KJA retarded emo Luke we are discussing. He needed someone to grab him by the shoulders and shake him.

Darth Hoth wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:

Eleas wrote: Except for when, in I, Jedi, he emerges as the natural leader of the Jedi in the temple fighting against Kun, presumably due to some strange form of anti-charisma on his part. Or his stunts in Lusankya, where he quickly becomes the last, best hope for escape. Little things like that.

And as 'natural leader' he fails completely and utterly and I'll once again mention him being tossed about like a rag doll by Exar Kun until he gets rescued.

And as for Lusankya, well he escapes himself, and then does nothing about it for 3 years until Isar gives them back as part of a dastardly plan. Great going there on the investigation front, Corran.

As I see it, that is at least in large part an attempt rationalise some of KJA's writing. The Jedi apprentices would likely not just mill around crying, "Raaah! The Dark Side is out for us!", but rather attempt to organise some kind of response. And as KJA precluded any of his characters taking charge, well, Corran had to.

While true that no strong, singular leader emerged KJA did provide us with Tionne, Leia Organa Solo and the Witch of Dathomir whose name escapes me at the moment; Leia reminded the students that they were studying to become Jedi so they should not sink into despair; Tionne acted as a sort of guide to the rest due to her relatively strong grasp of Jedi lore; and the Witch was apparently quite willing to combat Exar Kun's spectre; and if I recall correctly, Mara Jade was also there and acted as a sort of anchor. I, Jedi failed to mention any of this, although since it was written from Horn's perspective, his arrogance could and would have clouded his perception and judgment.

Like when Corran (on the planet), realizing there's an Imperial SSD in orbit, simply makes Tavira on its bridge think the Sun Crusher is coming toward her, causing her to order a retreat for her entire fleet, without breaking a sweat. "Problem solved."

*retch*

I'll have to conede that becuase, I'd completely forgotten it.

Every Jedi in the galaxy can pull shit like that. Luke did it way back in the Marvel comics, set in continuity before RotJ, and even Leia mindfucked Imperial gunners in Dark Empire on a planet full of Dark Side Adepts. Yes, Leia, who most of the time cannot switch off the light with her TK.

My personal poor opinion of the Dark Empire aside, it is rather easy to explain Leia's feat: she was currently on Palpatine's personal world of Byss where the Force was notably strong after the Emperor had basically sacrificed billions of sentients. It would have greatly aided Leia - and remember that the dark side adepts and their Emperor actually wanted Leia to come, so they had little incentive to prevent her from manipulating the Force for that effect.

Except this is not mirrored in the opinions of others. Unlike in the case of, say, Kell Tainer, where we see a proper reaction to this sort of childish behaviour,

Eh? I distinctly remember Wedge beating down his overblown ego in the very first X-wing book. He wrote him up as the worst on an exercise, and then basically told him to grow up when he whined about it. The other Rogues also told him what a prick he was all over the first half of the novel.

Exactly. Contrieved, as I said.

Contrived, yes. But contrived to show how badly Luke is doing as opposed to showing how awesome Corran is. Comapre with alter on when Lukes on fully form and effortlessly takes out half a dozen jenasaari. Corran can't manage one.

This is KJA retarded emo Luke we are discussing. He needed someone to grab him by the shoulders and shake him.

While definetely being a poor author, I don't remember KJA making Luke retarded emo (well, retarded perhaps). He was working under incredible pressure to re-build the Jedi Order knowing fully well first-hand how addictive and seductive the dark side could be. He basically had the same problem as he had during Thrawn's campaign - he was rather inexperienced in teaching and now he had to teach many students at once, not just Leia. He had already lost two apprentices during resurrected Emperor's reign (the Ysanna youths), one Jedi Knight (the maimed King Brand) and had only barely avoided total enslavement by the dark side. All in all he managed pretty well on the confidence side (although a writer with better skills than KJA could have done this much better).

Tiriol wrote:While true that no strong, singular leader emerged KJA did provide us with Tionne, Leia Organa Solo and the Witch of Dathomir whose name escapes me at the moment; Leia reminded the students that they were studying to become Jedi so they should not sink into despair; Tionne acted as a sort of guide to the rest due to her relatively strong grasp of Jedi lore; and the Witch was apparently quite willing to combat Exar Kun's spectre; and if I recall correctly, Mara Jade was also there and acted as a sort of anchor. I, Jedi failed to mention any of this, although since it was written from Horn's perspective, his arrogance could and would have clouded his perception and judgment.

It was admittedly a while since I read the KJA books, but from what I remember there was no one there to take charge. Leia held a little speech when the others just wanted to give up and go home, I remember that, but was she not there only briefly, to see her sick brother? Neither Tionne, a weak Force adept and from what I gather a reclusive scholar, nor Kirana Ti, with a Dathomiri's primitivistic-mystic understanding of the Force and fear of the unknown, appears to have been a feasible leader against the threat of Lord Kun, and Mara Jade had, assuming that I recall correctly, left the Academy by then. Corran was the only one to approach the problem rationally and systematically, which is reasonable, given his background and the fact that most of the other trainees had essentially been freaks, outcasts or primitives in their earlier lives.

My personal poor opinion of the Dark Empire aside, it is rather easy to explain Leia's feat: she was currently on Palpatine's personal world of Byss where the Force was notably strong after the Emperor had basically sacrificed billions of sentients. It would have greatly aided Leia - and remember that the dark side adepts and their Emperor actually wanted Leia to come, so they had little incentive to prevent her from manipulating the Force for that effect.

Point taken with regards to them not blocking her, but was Byss itself Force-empowered? I was under the impression that the Emperor and his Dark Side Adepts were merely sucking the Force out of its inhabitants (the description as "entirely enveloped in the Dark Side" in the comic would be metaphorical or refer to the Dark Emperor's power itself). That aside, such a power well would have been of the Dark Side; would she have used it?

Not that there are not plenty of other examples of Jedi mindfucking people at a distance in any case, Nomi Sunrider (at a point where her training would have been basic at best) being just one. So it is not incredibly wanked that Corran can, especially as he has more or less no TK.

While definetely being a poor author, I don't remember KJA making Luke retarded emo (well, retarded perhaps). He was working under incredible pressure to re-build the Jedi Order knowing fully well first-hand how addictive and seductive the dark side could be. He basically had the same problem as he had during Thrawn's campaign - he was rather inexperienced in teaching and now he had to teach many students at once, not just Leia. He had already lost two apprentices during resurrected Emperor's reign (the Ysanna youths), one Jedi Knight (the maimed King Brand) and had only barely avoided total enslavement by the dark side. All in all he managed pretty well on the confidence side (although a writer with better skills than KJA could have done this much better).

Reasonable, except for the point that Luke was nowhere near as pathetic in, say, Dark Empire II as he was in the Jedi Academy books. In those, he just rants about some "learning by doing" nonsense instead of actually teaching and does not appear to mind at all when his students stray into the Dark Side (if he thinks it so dangerous, he should be a great deal more concerned about this). He basically reacts to the murder of Gantoris with complete apathy, then has no problem with Wank Durron running around and doing as he pleases. To say nothing of his ultrastupid skewed morality bullshit at the end, which as I see it is what really pisses Corran off.

Yes, the man is angsty, retarded and seriously needs someone to beat some sense into him at that point.