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How come Echo base, with all its shields and ion cannons, and the personnel to protect, couldn't be spared a single turbolaser turret (removed from an old warship, for example) for attacking ground targets? I am quite certain that even light starship turrets would have destroyed the AT-AT's without a problem (we're talking about kilotons here), and the latter (or similar vehicles) were not such a new threat so as to be ignored.

Omeganian wrote:How come Echo base, with all its shields and ion cannons, and the personnel to protect, couldn't be spared a single turbolaser turret (removed from an old warship, for example) for attacking ground targets? I am quite certain that even light starship turrets would have destroyed the AT-AT's without a problem (we're talking about kilotons here), and the latter (or similar vehicles) were not such a new threat so as to be ignored.

Because it has barely been established?

That's probably the main reason for the lousy defences.

PeZook wrote:

Omeganian wrote:How come Echo base, with all its shields and ion cannons, and the personnel to protect, couldn't be spared a single turbolaser turret (removed from an old warship, for example) for attacking ground targets? I am quite certain that even light starship turrets would have destroyed the AT-AT's without a problem (we're talking about kilotons here), and the latter (or similar vehicles) were not such a new threat so as to be ignored.

Because it has barely been established?

That's probably the main reason for the lousy defences.

Defenses on a military are always the very first priority. Bringing in thousands of people before they are complete...

Omeganian wrote: Defenses on a military are always the very first priority. Bringing in thousands of people before they are complete...

Yeah, unless you're a rag-tag bunch of rebels running from Imperial authorities. For all we know, they had a turbolaser right there, ready to hook up before they got pasted.

Because of collateral damage? Turbolasers are in the high megaton to gigaton yields. That's not something you want to be discharging in the atmosphere near a base that's hardened in a glacier.

First the base was just getting started they hadn't even gotten the Speeders calibrated for the cold yet. The base only appeared to have at it minimal personel and facilities were still being set up when they were discovered.

For crying out loud the movie begins with them just setting up the perimiter defense sensors, something they should have done very early in the base construction.

We see during the battle the ragtag defenses the place had. The only thing sustantial was the Ion Cannon. Considering their attempts to hide the place, even that wasn't finished being installed.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Because of collateral damage? Turbolasers are in the high megaton to gigaton yields. That's not something you want to be discharging in the atmosphere near a base that's hardened in a glacier.

There were different yields. Certainly some could be found (low kiloton yield) to make a twenty km distant impact of their blasts preferable to the alternative.

As for the base being new... Well, Wookieepedia says it was started two years ago and complete. Starwars.com says it took 18 months to carve the base - and we saw the power generator on the surface, meaning it was likely completed early on (highest priority, too). Now, tell me, how do you call a person who takes two years to hook up a cable?

PeZook wrote:

Omeganian wrote: Defenses on a military are always the very first priority. Bringing in thousands of people before they are complete...

.

Yeah, unless you're a rag-tag bunch of rebels running from Imperial authorities. For all we know, they had a turbolaser right there, ready to hook up before they got pasted.

Not unless you're, but especially if you're.

"Reroute all power to the energy shields" ring a bell? Why trade AT-ATs for Star Destroyers?

Who knows, they know the Empire is going to come down hard and heavy, their strategy for surface defense is delay, delay, delay. They don't want to encourage the Empire to bring out heavy artillery and decide capture with low collateral is not worth the cost. It could be that heavy weaponry increases visibility to recon more than standard ops and the shielding net (recall the probe droid had to land and close to within a number of kilometers of the shield generator in order to confirm the presence of a settlement - and this intel was still unconvincing to the commander of Death Squadron). The tactical outlook of the rebels is to avoid getting caught above all else. Why waste the money on a turbolaser that will get you caught when it won't really help you evac and is more likely to just get them to throw up their arms and vape you? Perhaps ion cannons are more easily concealed, hence why their anti-orbital defense consisted of a planetary ion cannon instead of a turbolaser. Cost/benefit tradeoffs probably best explain the absence of heavy surface weaponry.

Given that the base seemed to be a temporary solution anyway, it makes sense that their only primary artillery was geared towards securing the passage off-world, while their secondary defenses dealt with land invasion.

VT-16 wrote:Given that the base seemed to be a temporary solution anyway, it makes sense that their only primary artillery was geared towards securing the passage off-world, while their secondary defenses dealt with land invasion.

Meaning you need to have guns capable of destroying any vehicle which can destroy the shield generators.

The base on Hoth was protected by a theater shield. It's only because they were trying to capture Luke Skywalker that they didn't just slag the crust out from under them. The best defense was to remain a secret.

You do know how indefensivable a undeveloped planet is against the Empire, right. Especially an ice planet?

Take away Luke. What reason would the Empire have had to capture the rebel base?

None.

Standard operating proceedure for Vader, when confronted with a rebel base without Skywalker there, was to destroy it.

You know the best way to deal with a rebel base on an uninhabited ice planet?

Blockade it, and commence heavy bombardment. Nothing gets out or off.
A Base Delta Zero on an ice planet, would have ruined the base in short order. Everyone would have drowned.

The only reason the Empire didn't do that was because of Vader wanting Skywalker.

The perimeter defense was to detect probe droids
The Ion Cannon was to open a hole in which to get ships out.

Echo Base was not a military base. It was a hidy hole.

The fact they defended it at all in a ground battle was, quite frankly, pure luck on the part of the rebels.

The fact that upon discovering a probe droid the Rebels first thought was to begin the evacuation, shows how little value Hoth had as a dug-in base. All they required was a heavy cannon for clearing the skies so the transports could evacuate and a shield for keeping them safe while they were on the ground.

Maybe they were also trying to hide said base as something else. Didn't the Imperials think it was a ,ining operation at first?

Typhonis 1 wrote:Maybe they were also trying to hide said base as something else. Didn't the Imperials think it was a ,ining operation at first?

Ozzel complained it could be smugglers.

The rebels survived by being the attackers. They chose the battlefield when it suited them and only fought when they had to fight on other ocassions.

For that reason bases were made as hidden as possible.

Was Vader's interest in Luke public knowledge at that point? Even Leia, a high ranking rebel and close friend of Luke, didn't know Vader was after Luke until he told her in ROTJ.

One of the rebel leaders told everyone to 'prepare for ground assault' after considering the tactical situation, which seems pretty ridiculas if the Imperials will just obliterate the base from orbit by default.

So unless he knew the Luke/Vader situation, it seems extremely questionable that the standard Imperial tactic was orbital bombardment with total destruction in mind for rebel targets, with no intention of taking prisoners or attempting to gain intelligence on other rebel networks and locations.

Its possible that the Empire does it this way often. A base taken 'intact' can be looked at for possible information on other hidden bases.

Aside from intelligence gathering, the problem with outright destroying the base is that they might never know for sure if it was a Rebel base.
I don't think "Obliterated small base in Hoth system, might have been full of Rebels, might not. It's all gone now!" would look very good on a report.

Darth Onasi wrote:I don't think "Obliterated small base in Hoth system, might have been full of Rebels, might not. It's all gone now!" would look very good on a report.

They could always lie. This is an Evil Empire, you know. What fun is being in an Evil Empire if you can't wipe out the odd settlement just for shits and giggles... er, on suspicion of being Rebel scum or smugglers and not answering hails?

Wyrm wrote:

Darth Onasi wrote:I don't think "Obliterated small base in Hoth system, might have been full of Rebels, might not. It's all gone now!" would look very good on a report.

They could always lie. This is an Evil Empire, you know. What fun is being in an Evil Empire if you can't wipe out the odd settlement just for shits and giggles... er, on suspicion of being Rebel scum or smugglers and not answering hails?

True, but in this case they're out to hunt and eliminate the rebels that took out the Death Star. I imagine the Emperor would want to make damn sure these lucky fools are dead, no ifs, buts or maybes.

What the fuck would be the point of the Empire engineering advanced and numerous ground forces if they aren't going to use them to capture and hold enemy ground?

Nuking rebel bases from orbit would be incredibly stupid...you're dealing with what is effectively a terrorist organization that isn't going to be limited to one target location. Therefore intel and prisoners become very important aspects of any such campaign; ergo, ground forces become very important in achieving those ends.

I know how fanboys love to jerk off to Imperial might slagging a planets for shits and giggles, but let's keep in mind that such events would be a last resort tactic that is the equivalent of nuking a fortified castle because you happen to suspect there might be terrorists there.

Nothing wrong with assuming some level of competence for Imperial forces.

It's a huge galaxy. The Empire fights entities besides the Alliance to Restore the Republic. In fact, it spends most of its time, efforts and resources fighting things besides the Alliance to Restore the Republic. There are actual nation-states out there with armies large and modern enough to give the Empire pause, attacking and defending planets with value.

Hoth is a worthless ice ball in the middle of nowhere. Its strategic value to the Rebellion was gone the second that probe droid phoned home. Its strategic value to the Empire was gone once the Rebels were. It wasn't some huge asset the Rebellion was clinging to, they were hiding there. What's the point of the Empire holding the planet? To capture prisoners? Yeah... They didn't seem to be doing much of that. They were after Luke, there was no doubt it was the Rebel base (who's going to argue with Vader?) and the ground assault was a fall back plan due to the theater shield precluding a limited bombardment.

When it comes to the Rebellion, "kill everything" very much IS the Empire's MO. The organization is small enough to decapitate in one swift stroke, to paraphrase Tarkin. What did they do when they found Yavin? Tried to blow it up. Hoth? Kill everything. Endor? Ditto. Say what you want about that strategy, but the Empire's approach empirically WAS to seek out and eliminate the Rebel leadership; from beginning to end.

Darth Raptor wrote:When it comes to the Rebellion, "kill everything" very much IS the Empire's MO. The organization is small enough to decapitate in one swift stroke, to paraphrase Tarkin. What did they do when they found Yavin? Tried to blow it up. Hoth? Kill everything. Endor? Ditto. Say what you want about that strategy, but the Empire's approach empirically WAS to seek out and eliminate the Rebel leadership; from beginning to end.

Actually, Hoth was exactly the opposite - try to capture the leadership, specifically Luke.

A better example would have been Derra IV, which happened shortly before Hoth. Rebellion lost a lot of forces and resources there, which may explain the question in the OP. They were still reeling - remember, everything they had could be taken away in about 2 dozen small transports.