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We had a similar thread a few months ago; out of frustration with the Travissite shit the Expanded Universe was turning into, some of us proposed the creation of an alternate EU, in effect doing for SW what the DrakaFic did for that world. And, well, the need has hardly diminished since, so I am reopening the topic.

My general thoughts are that the project should be run as a collaborative effort with a universe of (short?) stories and a general timeline. Major plot points should be decided in group, but individual stories could be fleshed out by individual writers. People who would not write, but could still provide expertise or constructive criticism would, of course, still be welcome.

The goal of the project should be to streamline and "de-kiddiefy" the SW universe thus far throughout, striking out obvious stupidities and correcting various minimalisms and nonsensical plot devices while still retaining as much of the general outline and set-up as possible. This would then go on up till the New Jedi Order, where it becomes stupid enough to warrant complete redesign. In this project, the Vong War would be the equivalent of Draka's Eurasian War.

All these points can of course be discussed. Is anyone willing to take part? I cannot do it by myself, but if we do get a group going, we should be able to pull it off.

I'd love to be involved. The only problem is, as I have mentioned, I haven't read any Wars novels save for Heir to An Empire. That aside, I have wrote a lot of fanfic for other series, and I've done my fair share of reviewing and CC. If you want me to do anything then just let me know.

I definitely want to be involved. I can write fluff, short stories, long stories, whatever needs doing. I'm reasonably familiar with the setting, but I'm hardly an expert. With people more knowledgeable to supervise and obliterate the stupid, I should do pretty well.

I can help with character and ship designs if you guys get that far into it. I'm okay with ideas for stories, nothing great, but I'll throw them out there.

Maybe if this gets rolling a user group can be created.

I've had floating round my head for a while to do a sort of "Jane's Warships of the Galaxy". I might be able to put some material together for it.

I would not mind writing. I could contribute more to the development/story of the universe as a whole, but frankly, I stopped following the progression of the Star Wars universe with any real fervor in the midst of NJO, so I am nowhere near as familiar with technical bits as I used to be.

I would like to help with this is any needed way.

I offer my assistance to this project. I'm fairly good at writing fluff, and I'd be pleased to give a short story or two a try.

And what, pray tell, is the Eurasian War?

My first proposal is that in-house canon include Publius' The New Order in Power.

I wholeheartedly agree with Illuminatus.

Further, we will need to pinpoint a specific point of divergence. The moment the credits roll in Return of the Jedi seem to be the logical point to pick up on.

Lastly, a real-time chat session would probably do very well to help spur this along.

I would be interested in adding to this project, too, were it to get off the ground. I've often considered reworking certain segments of the canon to compensate for the myriad of inconsistencies and sales-oriented cop-outs that have always tarnished the EU, but I've never been motivated enough to follow through. Perhaps a collaberative effort will inspire more focus.

Its not a fully-redone EU, rather the "complete" point-of-departure will be at the setting of the beginning of Vector Prime, the first New Jedi Order novel. Rather, the OT, and post-ROTJ EU will be 'rationalized' and 'coherentized'. For example, our historical outline or overview will retain the major plot elements of the Thrawn Trilogy, but perhaps will suggest that the Grand Admiral did not lead the entire campaign from the bridge of a lowly commonest Star Destroyer and a few of its brethren to single-handedly retake the galaxy, and that the Dark Force was maybe much more than 200 modified Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers, or perhaps it was a much more powerful class of Republic-era warships, and that Mount Tantiss could decant more than 100,000 clones during its entire duration of operation. And so forth. I'm sure this will be cause for much discussion.

Also, The New Order in Power will be followed up by The New Order at War, which I propose will also serve as the core concepts and canon behind our 're-interpretation' of the post-ROTJ EU.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Its not a fully-redone EU, rather the "complete" point-of-departure will be at the setting of the beginning of Vector Prime, the first New Jedi Order novel. Rather, the OT, and post-ROTJ EU will be 'rationalized' and 'coherentized'. For example, our historical outline or overview will retain the major plot elements of the Thrawn Trilogy, but perhaps will suggest that the Grand Admiral did not lead the entire campaign from the bridge of a lowly commonest Star Destroyer and a few of its brethren to single-handedly retake the galaxy, and that the Dark Force was maybe much more than 200 modified Dreadnaught-class heavy cruisers, or perhaps it was a much more powerful class of Republic-era warships, and that Mount Tantiss could decant more than 100,000 clones during its entire duration of operation. And so forth. I'm sure this will be cause for much discussion.

That's what I meant. Actually rewriting the EU entirely is both infeasible and rather unnecessary. I am fairly happy with much of the overarching plot post ROTJ, up to and including the NJO; the numerous, inconsistent particulars are at issue, as you say.

In my opinion the NJO itself also merits full-replacement. The general concept is not very SW and is just going to be cripplingly unrealistic to the scale no matter how you cut it, overshadow the films and the civil war, and beg awkward questions (like, "well since galactic-scale invasion fleets can cross to SW, how there's been now systematic exploration, contact, trade, or invasion by SW powers to other galaxies?" - if that never happens, the question never gets poised, similar to the problem with the armies of autonomous battle droids in the PT, begging the question why anyone ends up bothering with organics at all).

We should run a contest;

Present your revamped timeline for voting. Run it as a tournament. The winning timeline is the one we expand upon.

Then, we set rules and such for it. I.e numbers come to mind.

i.e
The Clone Army was 3.5 million units. 1 unit = 1 legion = 50,000 troopers.

Once that is all set up, people start doing up stories.

I think we should avoid doing the pre-OT revisions for now (not simply because I have separate ideas for re-writing or revising the PT and I'd like this to be compatible). But also because its largely outside the scope of the current project. Further, what we're worried about is general coherency, I actually would like to avoid axe-grinding and nitpicking where possible. I don't want it to be a pastiche of tongue-in-cheeks "Stackpole is dumb, Traviss is dumb" etc. with little "this SSD was actually 19 km." Furthermore, my own experience with contests is they don't work, very few people actually bother to put in a systemic effort, and those who do, why should we go with everything one person suggested over everything another did because the former won 51% to 49%; clearly both had useful ideas. I think group brainstorming is more preferable.

I absolutely agree with IP. The PT and OT-era works of Publius are Word of God on this and his post-RotJ stuff like Sic Transit Gloria and (one imagines) The New Order at War would make an excellent jumping-off point for EU 2.0, at least as far as the Galactic Empire is concerned. With all the stops out and us taking full license, we'll be able to give the New Republic a similar treatment and fill in some of the huge areas of terra incognito.

I also believe that a brainstorming session is preferable to a vote, and that Publius' works must be included in the EU 2.0. It is also my belief that we ought to compose a list of "Irreparable" stories that would be stripped from the timeline. Prominent on this list would be the Corellian Trilogy and The New Rebellion. After all, the galaxy needs some downtime.

I believe that the Corellian trilogy possesses some merit, at least with regards to the themes that it explores; that is, the particular rights of Republican member systems to withdraw from the federated body of the Republic and govern themselves free of outside intrusion. Though granted, such themes display heavy shades of the Clone Wars subtext, even if the Corellian Trilogy was published nearly a decade earlier. I have also seen some attempts at rationalizing the contents of the published works, mostly with regards to the vapid status of the New Republic Defense Force at the time; that the move for Bakuran assistance was a political maneuver, that sort of thing.

The New Rebellion, though, is something I would call wholly unsalvageable.

Moving back to Illuminatus Primus’ commentary, I must ask if we’re going to be wholly altering the progression of the EU narrative, or simply modifying it to be more consistent with itself. Small changes made at the beginning of our new timeline, especially those based upon Publius’ incredibly impressive works, might end up forcing us to inflict large changes or alter major events later in the timeline. For example, a semantic change with regards to, say, Zsinj might make it so Terrinald Screed is never executed by Zsinj, and in turn Screed could possibly become a major player in some conflict or another, which could further force changes.

I think we need to figure out exactly just how far we are willing to deviate from the current chronology. I personally do not have a major issue with any large-scale alterations, but I am unsure if others share this.

As for brainstorming, I agree that we need to do so. An AIM or IRC chat might make the best venue, if all interested (or at least a large majority) can be present at one time.

The New Order in Power and the (presumably forthcoming) The New Order at War limit themselves to expansions on but necessarily restricted by existing canon. Why would using TNOiP as a basis necessitate saving Screed? Some people, even if they were very influential in one era, aren't so lucky in subsequent ones. Palpatine's philosophy that being at the top makes you a target would even tend to suggest otherwise. I think we should stick with the basic plot events, especially up until the Jedi Academy Trilogy. If we're using Publius' works as a basis, than sticking with Publius' concept - supported in canon - in "Sic Transit Gloria" that the Empire in general and the Imperial State in particular truly collapsed and died at the end of the Crimson Empire arc would suggest we at least keep it tight til there; I wouldn't mind some modification on case by case basis of later work. For example if someone wanted to make JAT less retarded but maintain the basic outcome and events, I'd understand. Likewise with The New Rebellion. Keep in mind the methods he used, when you think about it, until the Essential Chronologies and even after them, the scale and nature of the balance of power and the ongoing war is quite debatable. More or less I want to take the major characters and entities through the same basic arcs to end up at basically the same place at the eve of Vector Prime.

It is great that so many show their interest! Hopefully, this time we will carry this through to the finish.

Master_Baerne wrote:And what, pray tell, is the Eurasian War?

The Draka althistory's version of WWII. It should be fairly easy to search something up on it.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:My first proposal is that in-house canon include Publius' The New Order in Power.

With some reservations, I too agree with this idea. Some minor amendments could perhaps be put in, to cover such things as invented character names, but overall, certainly.

Maxentius wrote:Further, we will need to pinpoint a specific point of divergence. The moment the credits roll in Return of the Jedi seem to be the logical point to pick up on.

I would rather see a lot of the whacky stuff in between the films (primarily, the comics) rationalised as well. And, of course, the prequel-era Traviss fallacies.

Solauren wrote:We should run a contest;

Present your revamped timeline for voting. Run it as a tournament. The winning timeline is the one we expand upon.

Then, we set rules and such for it. I.e numbers come to mind.

i.e
The Clone Army was 3.5 million units. 1 unit = 1 legion = 50,000 troopers.

Once that is all set up, people start doing up stories.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:my own experience with contests is they don't work, very few people actually bother to put in a systemic effort, and those who do, why should we go with everything one person suggested over everything another did because the former won 51% to 49%; clearly both had useful ideas. I think group brainstorming is more preferable.

I would rather agree with Illuminatus here.

Illuminatus Primus wrote: I think we should avoid doing the pre-OT revisions for now (not simply because I have separate ideas for re-writing or revising the PT and I'd like this to be compatible). But also because its largely outside the scope of the current project. Further, what we're worried about is general coherency, I actually would like to avoid axe-grinding and nitpicking where possible. I don't want it to be a pastiche of tongue-in-cheeks "Stackpole is dumb, Traviss is dumb" etc. with little "this SSD was actually 19 km."

I would propose that there be no mention of individual stupidities; rather, simply a straightened-out list of how it should have looked, much as was the case with DrakaFic. Such comparisons will of course pop up in comments, but not the timeline itself.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why would using TNOiP as a basis necessitate saving Screed?

It wouldn't, I just picked a hyperbolic example at random. The point I wanted to illustrate was that alterations to initial events could possibly have impact upon later ones that we might not immediately think of.

As for the rest, I pretty much agree with you.

edit: minor grammar.

Master_Baerne wrote:I also believe that a brainstorming session is preferable to a vote, and that Publius' works must be included in the EU 2.0. It is also my belief that we ought to compose a list of "Irreparable" stories that would be stripped from the timeline. Prominent on this list would be the Corellian Trilogy and The New Rebellion. After all, the galaxy needs some downtime.

The New Rebellion at least has elements that could be saved; it is a rather interesting take that a villain for once has some right on his side (albeit only after a fashion) and that the NR would solicit unsavoury allies like the Je'har. We need only remove the moronical stuff, e.g., scrap Kueller's galactic ambitions and just make him a terrorist bent on revenge against the government that let his people be slaughtered.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The New Order in Power and the (presumably forthcoming) The New Order at War limit themselves to expansions on but necessarily restricted by existing canon. Why would using TNOiP as a basis necessitate saving Screed? I think we should stick with the basic plot events, especially up until the Jedi Academy Trilogy. Some people, even if they were very influential in one era, aren't so lucky in subsequent ones. Palpatine's philosophy that being at the top makes you a target would even tend to suggest otherwise.

I reiterate my concurring opinion: The aim of the project should be to preserve as much of the existing EU as possible, up to the NJO, at least; modifications should be minor where possible and concern only the outrageously stupid and irredeemable. For example, one would keep the overall outline of the JAT, but perhaps gloss over details, make Luke less stupid, have people regard Daala as a terrorist or loose cannon rather than a galactic threat, et cetera.

Darth Hoth wrote:

Master_Baerne wrote:And what, pray tell, is the Eurasian War?

The Draka althistory's version of WWII. It should be fairly easy to search something up on it.

This is Shep's DrakaFic index, everything you want should be able to be found here and in research on Stirling's Draka and criticisms thereof with Googlefu.

Darth Hoth wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:My first proposal is that in-house canon include Publius' The New Order in Power.

With some reservations, I too agree with this idea. Some minor amendments could perhaps be put in, to cover such things as invented character names, but overall, certainly.

What's wrong with his names?

Darth Hoth wrote:

Maxentius wrote:Further, we will need to pinpoint a specific point of divergence. The moment the credits roll in Return of the Jedi seem to be the logical point to pick up on.

I would rather see a lot of the whacky stuff in between the films (primarily, the comics) rationalised as well. And, of course, the prequel-era Traviss fallacies.

Agreed in general. A historical outline can probably deal with this, and everything can be filled in piecemeal (it does not have to be comprehensive from the outset, I don't want this running aground with us trying to justify and alter to each of our personal specifications, every quest between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back).

As I said, if this actually works, I have my own proposal for re-writing the prequels that I'd like to be compatible. I'd like to limit our prequel, Clone Wars referencing to what we had basically before AOTC and even TPM came out. What we saw in the recent EU was really derivative. I think we can all assume that there were proto-Stormtroopers from that era with similar armor, that there were Jedi Generals, that there were Venator-class Star Destroyer, Actis interceptors, etc. The tech and fact legacy should retain, but avoid plot referencing, so we can go back and clean it up in detail.

Darth Hoth wrote:I would propose that there be no mention of individual stupidities; rather, simply a straightened-out list of how it should have looked, much as was the case with DrakaFic. Such comparisons will of course pop up in comments, but not the timeline itself.

Agreed.

Darth Hoth wrote:The New Rebellion at least has elements that could be saved; it is a rather interesting take that a villain for once has some right on his side (albeit only after a fashion) and that the NR would solicit unsavoury allies like the Je'har. We need only remove the moronical stuff, e.g., scrap Kueller's galactic ambitions and just make him a terrorist bent on revenge against the government that let his people be slaughtered.

...

I reiterate my concurring opinion: The aim of the project should be to preserve as much of the existing EU as possible, up to the NJO, at least; modifications should be minor where possible and concern only the outrageously stupid and irredeemable. For example, one would keep the overall outline of the JAT, but perhaps gloss over details, make Luke less stupid, have people regard Daala as a terrorist or loose cannon rather than a galactic threat, et cetera.

Both good examples of what I had in mind, definitely.