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He was certainly mentally distraught by the time of the Republic comics' "Battle for Jabiim" story arc, in the aftermath of which he suffered from paranoid delusions and was fully prepared to kill a fellow Jedi (A'Sharad Hett) because he thought (without the slightest justification) that he was out to get him. It is arguable whether he manifested sociopathic or schizophrenic tendencies even earlier, but there it becomes unambiguous.Crom wrote:I was reading another thread and someone mentioned that Anakin Skywalker was a sociopath.
Was Anakin Skywalker already a sociopath prior to being corrupted by the Dark Side? If he was, when did that happen?
As I've come to understand it, sociopaths can care about a small group of people. It's sort of like Anakin cares about Amidala and doesn't want her harmed, but he has no compunction about killing you or the person you love.Darth Raptor wrote:He's not without empathy pre-Vader, so he was never strictly a sociopath, just completely amoral (as a lot of GFFA folks are) and utterly self-absorbed.
Anakin was even bothered after killing Dooku, which he did only at the prompting of an authority figure with whom he had a close relationship. Really, Anakin wasn't a sociopath at all before his actual turn to the dark side. He had terrible anger issues and all sorts of attachment disorders with his mother and Padme, but he had no problems empathizing with others.Pelranius wrote:He also cared about his mom, and those Nelvaanians whom the Techno Union people were experimenting on (at least enough to kill all the Skakoan scientists). Anakin seemed somewhat bothered that he had also killed all the Sand People in that camp as well.
He was bothered at having broken his code of conduct. Not out of remorse for Dooku's life.Eframepilot wrote:Anakin was even bothered after killing Dooku, which he did only at the prompting of an authority figure with whom he had a close relationship. Really, Anakin wasn't a sociopath at all before his actual turn to the dark side. He had terrible anger issues and all sorts of attachment disorders with his mother and Padme, but he had no problems empathizing with others.Pelranius wrote:He also cared about his mom, and those Nelvaanians whom the Techno Union people were experimenting on (at least enough to kill all the Skakoan scientists). Anakin seemed somewhat bothered that he had also killed all the Sand People in that camp as well.
Maybe. But that doesn't mean that one can't already be sociopathic beforehand.ExarKun wrote:I always thought that the dark side somehow makes you sociopathic
Sociopaths are characterized by inability to love and lack of emotional attachment to others. Then you have pathological lying, promiscuity and infidelity, parasitic lifestyle, criminal behavior, manipulative behavior, etc..Dillon wrote:Maybe. But that doesn't mean that one can't already be sociopathic beforehand.ExarKun wrote:I always thought that the dark side somehow makes you sociopathic
Excuse me? Did you, too, miss the part of Ep III when the Jedi were couping the legitimate government? Or where Palpatine rightly predicted that they would cause "civil war without end" unless hunted down? He had some very real and objective reasons to neutralise them.ExarKun wrote:justifying his actions against the Jedi with sheer nonsense that only makes sense to him,
I hope you're being sarcastic thereDarth Hoth wrote:Excuse me? Did you, too, miss the part of Ep III when the Jedi were couping the legitimate government? Or where Palpatine rightly predicted that they would cause "civil war without end" unless hunted down? He had some very real and objective reasons to neutralise them.ExarKun wrote:justifying his actions against the Jedi with sheer nonsense that only makes sense to him,
No, I very much am not.ExarKun wrote:I hope you're being sarcastic there
A very serious accusation for which the Jedi had absolutely zero evidence. I also like how you sidestep the issue that Mace Windu was about to depose him even before a notoriously paranoid and psychologically distraught individual provided the sole testimony. No court in the Western World would act on such "proof", let alone against the head of state in the middle of a war, and the Jedi clearly did not care either way as they went to assume power.Palpatine was a traitor,
He was the duly elected and inaugurated head of state and government of the Galactic Republic, who had - as far as anyone knew - executed his duties spectacularly well and fully within the spirit and letter of the law. He certainly had more authority, whether meant to be moral or legal, than an antidemocratic monastic order with coincidental vast influence in the running of matters of state. The Jedi even specifically stated that he must be assassinated because the Courts would never take their case seriously.so he had no legitimacy whatsoever.
Duty to their own Order at most, certainly not the Galactic Republic. There are a few things you might have heard of called "due process", "rule of law" and "innocent till proven guilty". You do not, whether as a private citizen or a police or military officer, go around killing people and couping democratic governments because you think that someone might be a criminal; if you do, it is you who belong behind bars or in the chair.It was the duty of the Jedi to arrest him/kill him.
Darth Hoth wrote:ExarKun wrote:A very serious accusation for which the Jedi had absolutely zero evidence. I also like how you sidestep the issue that Mace Windu was about to depose him even before a notoriously paranoid and psychologically distraught individual provided the sole testimony. No court in the Western World would act on such "proof", let alone against the head of state in the middle of a war, and the Jedi clearly did not care either way as they went to assume power.Palpatine was a traitor,
He said that he is the senate, pretty much admitting his guilt of overstepping his bounds as chief of state to the jedi, and whipping out a light saber and killing jedi without provocation is what exactly? It's a murder attempt and they had every right after that to kill him. The right thing for him to do would be to let himself be arrested and then fight the charges, like anybody else.
He was the duly elected and inaugurated head of state and government of the Galactic Republic, who had - as far as anyone knew - executed his duties spectacularly well and fully within the spirit and letter of the law. He certainly had more authority, whether meant to be moral or legal, than an antidemocratic monastic order with coincidental vast influence in the running of matters of state. The Jedi even specifically stated that he must be assassinated because the Courts would never take their case seriously.so he had no legitimacy whatsoever.
The war is over, it is time for him to step down, they go to make sure he does. Nothing wrong with that, nor traitorous. His mandate ends with the war, so he has no legal standing the moment the war is over, no matter how well he executed his duties. As for the assassination, no, they said he might have to be removed by force, exactly foreseeing what was going to happen. He will not give up his power. It is within their legal limits to remove him. They never go into his office attempting to kill him, just to forcibly throw him out.
Duty to their own Order at most, certainly not the Galactic Republic. There are a few things you might have heard of called "due process", "rule of law" and "innocent till proven guilty". You do not, whether as a private citizen or a police or military officer, go around killing people and couping democratic governments because you think that someone might be a criminal; if you do, it is you who belong behind bars or in the chair.It was the duty of the Jedi to arrest him/kill him.
It is also a duty to the Republic, whom they serve. Jedi are not some independent order, they are part of the gov't. Once they found out he's a sith, they easily connect him to the sith lord who they know is behind the war, who lives in the same freaking building as Palpatine. Obi-wan tells Padme as much. They know he's behind everything. They easily put two and two together and decide to arrest him. Some evidence, no matter how minor, is enough to arrest him on the suspicion of treason and give him due process of law. Anakin might not be great as a witness, but the events in the office prove Anakin correct. Once he attempts to kill them, they are entitled to kill him.
This matter has been discussed at length earlier; member Publius has argued this point more persuasively than I ever could. Perform a search.
I've read Publius's post, and frankly, he's clutching at straws. His post is fine in theory, but would never work in the real world.
Imagine 4 top FBI agents, whose #1 target is Osama bin Laden, who, on strong suspicion and some evidence is behind the terrorist attacks, find themselves in the White House. They are there to make sure Bush, who has dictatorial powers contrary to the tradition, and who is in his 12th year in office steps down, because Saddam Hussein has just been captured, US has taken over Iraq and there is minor resistance, but the mission is accomplished, for all intents and purposes. They go there to ask him to step down, but they found out he is bin Laden. They decide to arrest him, but he whips out a gun, shoots 3 of them, and then runs out of bullets. The 4th one can easily arrest him and charge him with murder, if nothing else, and get rid of him. Except that he knows that the courts are filled with Bush's right wing cronies. So he decides to bend the rules and shoot him. Sure, it's wrong from some crazy legal point of view, but any sane person knows it's right, forget the legal. He can just say that he shot him in self defense and sleep peacefully at night knowing that he did the right thing. Of course this is not the exact analogy, but it's close enough. The law gets bent all the time in the real world. Giving some war criminal due process of law when he's clearly guilty is for the theory books and happens only when you are sure that he will be easily proven guilty.
The whole point of your theory rest on the belief that the Jedi went in for a coup and to assume the power themselves, when there is no evidence of that. They went in for the arrest because of reasonable suspicion, due process of law would have easily found him guilty. They try to kill him once he turns dangerous. Do you honestly see Mace Windu or Yoda as the chancellor, or someone put their as there puppet?
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But in order to embrace the dark side, you need to embrace the worst sides of your own nature: hatred and anger.ExarKun wrote:I always thought that the dark side somehow makes you sociopathic
In ROTS (both the movie and the novelization) there is explicit dialogue by Mace Windu in which he describes his plan to overthrow Palpatine and take control of the Senate. The whole point of YOUR theory rests on ignoring said evidence and blustering about morality.ExarKun wrote:The whole point of your theory rest on the belief that the Jedi went in for a coup and to assume the power themselves, when there is no evidence of that.
Was that before or after they had already decided to depose him?ExarKun wrote:He said that he is the senate, pretty much admitting his guilt of overstepping his bounds as chief of state to the jedi,
Have you heard of self-defence? They drew weapons first, not he, and were in the process of illegally detaining him.and whipping out a light saber and killing jedi without provocation is what exactly? It's a murder attempt
Ignoring the point of self-defence, or the matter of him being the head of state. Impeachment through the Senate would be the way to go, if any.and they had every right after that to kill him.
Except that the Jedi had no legal authority to arrest him. Of course, they were never going to give him a fair trial in the first place. Does "He's too dangerous to be left alive?" ring a bell?The right thing for him to do would be to let himself be arrested and then fight the charges, like anybody else.
Evidence?The war is over,
According to?it is time for him to step down,
In other words, they are couping the legitimate government.they go to make sure he does.
I beg to differ.Nothing wrong with that, nor traitorous.
You have a quote, I gather?His mandate ends with the war, so he has no legal standing the moment the war is over, no matter how well he executed his duties.
Odd how the motivation changed, then. Did Palpatine become more dangerous after Windu struck him down?As for the assassination, no, they said he might have to be removed by force, exactly foreseeing what was going to happen.
No it is not.He will not give up his power. It is within their legal limits to remove him.
That is still treason. And Windu certainly tried.They never go into his office attempting to kill him, just to forcibly throw him out.
Thus they respect its laws. Oh, wait...It is also a duty to the Republic, whom they serve.
Evidence to counter the sourcebook Publius cited?Jedi are not some independent order, they are part of the gov't.
Unfounded assumption. There is no credible evidence that a Sith is guiding the Separatists, apart from Dooku, nor that there are only two Sith in any case. The Sith religion itself is not outlawed. And you are ignoring the fact that they did not have any solid evidence that Palpatine was Sith at all in the first place.Once they found out he's a sith, they easily connect him to the sith lord who they know is behind the war, who lives in the same freaking building as Palpatine.
His opinion is not evidence. He was not even there to witness the action. Nor did he suspect anything before Windu launched his coup.Obi-wan tells Padme as much.
They think he is.They know he's behind everything.
Windu was coming for him before he even spoke to Anakin.They easily put two and two together and decide to arrest him.
Due process for a head of state would be impeachment. And as noted, they were not interested in a fair trial anyway.Some evidence, no matter how minor, is enough to arrest him on the suspicion of treason and give him due process of law.
Of course, they knew what would happen beforehand. Wait...Anakin might not be great as a witness, but the events in the office prove Anakin correct.
No, because they attacked first. He is entitled to kill them.Once he attempts to kill them, they are entitled to kill him.
That is... not a judgment you hear often about Publius's work.I've read Publius's post, and frankly, he's clutching at straws. His post is fine in theory, but would never work in the real world.
I will call red herring on this one. But if you persist, I can take it apart as I did the rest of your argument.Imagine 4 top FBI agents, whose #1 target is Osama bin Laden, who, on strong suspicion and some evidence is behind the terrorist attacks, find themselves in the White House. They are there to make sure Bush, who has dictatorial powers contrary to the tradition, and who is in his 12th year in office steps down, because Saddam Hussein has just been captured, US has taken over Iraq and there is minor resistance, but the mission is accomplished, for all intents and purposes. They go there to ask him to step down, but they found out he is bin Laden. They decide to arrest him, but he whips out a gun, shoots 3 of them, and then runs out of bullets. The 4th one can easily arrest him and charge him with murder, if nothing else, and get rid of him. Except that he knows that the courts are filled with Bush's right wing cronies. So he decides to bend the rules and shoot him. Sure, it's wrong from some crazy legal point of view, but any sane person knows it's right, forget the legal. He can just say that he shot him in self defense and sleep peacefully at night knowing that he did the right thing. Of course this is not the exact analogy, but it's close enough. The law gets bent all the time in the real world. Giving some war criminal due process of law when he's clearly guilty is for the theory books and happens only when you are sure that he will be easily proven guilty.
The whole point of your theory rest on the belief that the Jedi went in for a coup and to assume the power themselves, when there is no evidence of that.
Ehm, no.They went in for the arrest because of reasonable suspicion,
Windu did not think so.due process of law would have easily found him guilty.
So he becomes more dangerous after the fight? How?They try to kill him once he turns dangerous.
I shall let the evidence speak for itself:Do you honestly see Mace Windu or Yoda as the chancellor, or someone put their as there puppet?
Emphasis mine.Official Novelisation wrote:KI-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from
office.
MACE WINDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .
KI-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.
YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take.
You also missed the point that they were right. Palpatine was a traitor to the Republic and was evil incarnate. Sure the Jedi were stupid about it, that was the point of the movie, not that the Jedi were wrong. Also, they were at the end of the war not the middle, Dooku dead, and Obi Wan actively engaging their supreme military commander in an attack pretty much spelled the end of the war.Darth Hoth wrote:A very serious accusation for which the Jedi had absolutely zero evidence. I also like how you sidestep the issue that Mace Windu was about to depose him even before a notoriously paranoid and psychologically distraught individual provided the sole testimony. No court in the Western World would act on such "proof", let alone against the head of state in the middle of a war, and the Jedi clearly did not care either way as they went to assume power.Palpatine was a traitor,
As far as anyone knew. That's the underpin of your argument, once we kick that out since Palpatine was not the duly elected head of state, rather guilty of exactly what you accuse the Jedi of; using Force powers to elevate himself, your argument crumbles around you.He was the duly elected and inaugurated head of state and government of the Galactic Republic, who had - as far as anyone knew - executed his duties spectacularly well and fully within the spirit and letter of the law. He certainly had more authority, whether meant to be moral or legal, than an antidemocratic monastic order with coincidental vast influence in the running of matters of state. The Jedi even specifically stated that he must be assassinated because the Courts would never take their case seriously.so he had no legitimacy whatsoever.
And yet cops can defend themselves as do military people from hazardous and armed opponents. It is quite clear that a highly trained Force user just standing there without a weapon is and can be very dangerous.Duty to their own Order at most, certainly not the Galactic Republic. There are a few things you might have heard of called "due process", "rule of law" and "innocent till proven guilty". You do not, whether as a private citizen or a police or military officer, go around killing people and couping democratic governments because you think that someone might be a criminal; if you do, it is you who belong behind bars or in the chair.It was the duty of the Jedi to arrest him/kill him.
Palpatines ultimate success was because he subverted the Republic and made it look like others did it. Doesn't change that he indeed subvert the system, nor does it change that the Jedi were right, he did sleeze his way in there with Force Powers and he was a traitor.This matter has been discussed at length earlier; member Publius has argued this point more persuasively than I ever could. Perform a search.
EDIT: You need not search: Here is the thread in question.
Besides, the Jedi basically had no choice. Nobody but them knew that he was secretly in league with the separatists to essentially overthrow the Republic government and replace it with his own autocracy, and they couldn't prove it. Even if they could, Palpatine was in control of the courts and the Senate, so their objections to him would have most likely been shot down in flames and/or buried in procedure (look at the current administration to see how easily a popular autocrat can evade prosecution for illegal activities even in a supposedly democratic law-and-order society).Ziggy Stardust wrote:In ROTS (both the movie and the novelization) there is explicit dialogue by Mace Windu in which he describes his plan to overthrow Palpatine and take control of the Senate. The whole point of YOUR theory rests on ignoring said evidence and blustering about morality.ExarKun wrote:The whole point of your theory rest on the belief that the Jedi went in for a coup and to assume the power themselves, when there is no evidence of that.