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Assuming that the carbon freezing process does not work and Han dies on Bespin, what are the ramifications to the Alliance, through the loss of his presence on Endor as well as Lando Calrissian's absence in piloting the Falcon into the DSII.

Also, what affect would it have on the EU in that time period, and after.

A couple of thoughts...

Neither Jabba or Xizor would have died.

No children with Leia.

The EU Corellian based story arcs would most certainly turn out differently.

Oh yeah, Boba Fett wouldn't have died... not that it would have mattered.

So what else significant or insignificant might have changed if Harrison Ford got his way?

It is a very big IF, but with no Solo, he wouldn't have lead the commando raid on the shield generator on the moon of Endor, he wouldn't have stepped on branch that altered the scout troopers, leading to the speeder bike chase and Leia encountering the Ewoks. Without the Ewoks help, the Rebels chances of completing their mission is much smaller. Of course the movie script would have been altered or rewritten completely, George would not be denied his Ewoks.

Luke and Leia do something they later regret.

havokeff wrote:Neither Jabba or Xizor would have died.

Xizor WILL die because he got the bright idea to discredit Vader by killing Luke so the "Son of Skywalker" couldn't become the Emperor's new apprentice, BEFORE Han was frozen. Once Vader finds out about this (which is very likely, considering his intelligence officers were able to decode Xizor's "secure" transmissions and uncover secrets Xizor spent a fortune trying to hide), he'll make up charges with which to sentence Xizor to death.

Jabba will be upset that Han won't live to be publicly tortured, humiliated, or killed as a warning to the Hutt's enemies, but I doubt he'll take it out on Fett (who's still useful) or Vader (he knows that's a one way ticket to hell).

Fett himself will simply collect his money (Vader said the Empire would reimburse him if Han died), keep whatever complaints he had to himself (in the comics, he sold Jabba the frozen Han as a "work of art, carved by the hand of Vader himself," for a HUGE amount of money), and would likely survive to the end of 'Return of the Jedi', or at least NOT become Sarlacc fodder.

Well, for one thing, we are spared that awful, retarded line of dialogue from Threepio in ROTJ: "Oh, look, it's Capt. Solo. And he's still frozen in carbonite."

Little materially changes. Other than there being no necessity to return to Tatooine, and Jabba and Fett both get to live. No Han, it's Leia leading the commando force on the sanctuary moon. Everything else proceeds as it does in the actual sequence of events. Luke still turns his father, and the Emperor still dies. DS-2 still gets blown up. The EU is a little different from that point forward, I suppose.

If Luke never goes back to Tatooine he never finds Kenobi's trunk, and thus doesn't know how to build a new lightsaber.

That will make his showdown with Vader rather tricky.

Would Han's corpse still have a different shirt on when it was thawed out for burial than the one he was wearing when he got frozen?

Ender wrote:If Luke never goes back to Tatooine he never finds Kenobi's trunk, and thus doesn't know how to build a new lightsaber.

That will make his showdown with Vader rather tricky.

I think Luke would've gone back to Tatooine anyway. He needed Jedi knowhow.

Interestingly, what if Lando leads the attack on the shield generator? He's still a 'friend' of the Rebellion after Bespin, but has nobody to recommend him for pilot.

MORE interestingly, what if he and Leia hook up?

If Luke never goes back to Tatooine he never finds Kenobi's trunk, and thus doesn't know how to build a new lightsaber.

That will make his showdown with Vader rather tricky.

I would think Yoda could have given him a few pointers.

If Leia undergoes Jedi training isn't there a chance that without Han's love she'll be more prone to falling to the Dark Side? After all, she's lost as much to the Empire/Vader as Luke has, but she never underwent a process where she faced and rejected the Dark Side as he did.

Ender wrote:If Luke never goes back to Tatooine he never finds Kenobi's trunk, and thus doesn't know how to build a new lightsaber.

Obi-Wan's still around (in spirit) to advise Luke; he can say, "Luke, you need a new lightsaber. I have a manual and a furnace you can use to bake a crystal, right in my old home. Why don't you go there?" and Luke would go and make a new lightsaber.

Jabba might hire bounty hunters to kill Luke (because Xizor, his boss, still wants to kill Luke to discredit Vader), but if Fett delivers a message like "Vader has a message for you: Do not interfere in Luke Skywalker's affairs. The Sith Lord has his own plans for the so-called Jedi, and will be most... upset... if anything were to happen to Skywalker," the Hutt will tell Xizor, "Skywalker's in hiding. My men can't find him, but they're still looking; it's only a matter of time," while doing NOTHING.

Battlehymn Republic wrote:If Leia undergoes Jedi training isn't there a chance that without Han's love she'll be more prone to falling to the Dark Side? After all, she's lost as much to the Empire/Vader as Luke has, but she never underwent a process where she faced and rejected the Dark Side as he did.

I think Luke will prevent Leia from falling AS LONG AS Luke himself stays on the Light Side of the Force. If Vader convinces Luke to join him (unlikely, but not impossible), then Leia is likely to join her brother (and she WILL learn that Luke's her brother; Yoda and Obi-Wan know, they'll tell Luke, and Luke will tell Leia).

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Interestingly, what if Lando leads the attack on the shield generator? He's still a 'friend' of the Rebellion after Bespin, but has nobody to recommend him for pilot.

MORE interestingly, what if he and Leia hook up?

Yeah no. If Han dies because Lando turned him over to Vader, Lando isn't going to be on the Falcon with Chewie and Leia. Lando was only with them to save Han, if this isn't the case then he gets the fuck out on his own assuming Chewie doesn't get a hold of him and fucking kill him. Lando would certainly not be a "friend" of the Rebellion after this and Leia is as likely to kill him as to talk to him.

Wait, so what are the circumstances of Han's death? Do Leia and the others know? Or was some dude at the freezing terminal like "oh shit... wrong button. My bad."

If the latter case, Chewie would have gone suicidal due to his life debt, and Leia taken to Vader's shuttle. Lando would have no stake in rescuing Han, and Luke would be left alone to fend for himself.

TK-984 wrote:Wait, so what are the circumstances of Han's death? Do Leia and the others know? Or was some dude at the freezing terminal like "oh shit... wrong button. My bad."

If the latter case, Chewie would have gone suicidal due to his life debt, and Leia taken to Vader's shuttle. Lando would have no stake in rescuing Han, and Luke would be left alone to fend for himself.

From the OP, I would think that after the freezing process, when Lando got down and checked the display on the carbonite, this time he'd say something different. Han would look the same in the carbonite, but he couldn't be 'thawed' alive.

Almost immediately afterwards;

Chewie may go postal, right then and there. If he does, Stormtroopers, Fett, or Vader put him down, hard.

However, if Chewie stays calm, or at least collected, because of Han's instructions to take care of her (perhaps transferring the life debt).

Vader no longer has a 'carbonite-clad' way to transport Luke to Coruscant. This was a part of his initial plan. Setting up an 'ambush' in the Carbon Freezing chamber is rather pointless now. Vader's best bet is to capture Luke and have Leia and co as a hostage.

More then likely, Vader will escort Leia + co personally to his shuttle. This way, so that when Luke runs into them, he has to fight Vader right then and there. It also ensures his new plan of using Leia + co as hostages against Luke will succeed.

(in TESB, Leia + co had already served there purpose, and where now just rebel prisoners. In this scenario, they are still the bait).

Luke is either going to be forced into giving up on rescuing them and returning to Dagobah (and risk being tracked there by the Empire), or try a rescue on an Executor Class vessel.

Option 1, abandoning them, puts Leia's life in extreme danger, as well as Yoda's. I can also imagine that Luke would not want to put Leia through another Imperial interegation session under Vader.

Option 2, well, it's Luke against Darth Vader, and the 501st Legion.

He either
a) - Gets captured fighting Vader on the way to the shuttle. Possibly ushered into a nice ambush of Stormtroopers
b)- Has to head back to his X-wing, (and probably another ambush of Stormtroopers), and try to fly his way up to Executor.

He he goes with Option B
#1 - He's got to get through a minimum of 72 enemy starfighters, flown by the 501st. Not to mention the Executors ion cannons
#2 - Assuming he makes it into a hanger bay on Executor, he's got to fight his way through Executors internal security, the 501st Legion, and then face down Darth Vader, while Leia's life is on the line to be ended at a moments notice.

Even if Vader gives orders to 'let the X-wing land, it's expected', and he's escorted to see Vader, he's still got to fighter Vader on his own turf.

Luke got his ass handed to him on Bespin. The only reason he escaped was because Vader let him escape.

In the novelization, when Luke steps off the 'vane', Vader uses the Dark side to create a wind that nearly lifts luke back up, then drops him. Why, no idea.

Luke has no such out on the Executor. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if, the second Luke was onboard, Executor goes into hyperspace and arrives over Coruscant.


Now, assuming Luke manages to do that impossible, and rescue Leia in this scenario, well, hero gets the girl, but we don't need to go into that...


Odds are, with Han dead, Vader has to change his plans slightly, and Luke will end up captured, as will Leia.

The rebellion is screwed.

Solauren wrote:Odds are, with Han dead, Vader has to change his plans slightly, and Luke will end up captured, as will Leia.

The rebellion is screwed.

On the plus side, Vader is more likely to turn Luke at "I am your father," which means Palpatine is ALSO screwed.

I don't think the Rebellion is screwed at all. Luke is pretty much a non-factor in ROTJ as part of the mission. Han is no big loss. As we saw he didn't do much of anything to distinguish himself as a General or a commander on Endor. Leia also didn't do much of anything. I'm sure there was an actual military plan when they landed the shuttle that the military types carried out while they were off playing with the teddy bears. They also had a plan to disable the shield generator that didn't involve Ewoks that competent special forces operative probably would have carried out.

The loss of Lando in the Falcon may have been a bigger deal though. Based on what we saw on screen and read in the novelization, Lando can fly fucking circles around Han and while Wedge and a few others made it through, it was Lando and Nien Nub that made the big hit. Lando also displayed some actual leadership and command abilities.

As for Han's fate, he would still have been frozen in carbonite and there is no reason Boba wouldn't have been able to still milk Jabba for the extra dough that he did. I don't think that Jabba would have minded if Solo was dead.

Luke's confrontation with Vader might have still gone the same way. Vader didn't have to freeze him in carbonite, it just would have made the transport easier. The trap had been laid already, so there was no reason to change the location, he just might not have tried to push him down into the freezing chamber. No reason to think Vader still wouldn't have loped off his hand and Luke wouldn't have took the nose dive.

The question would be, that without Lando's help, how would Leia and Chewie have escaped. I'm thinking two possibilities, either Lando says fuck it and goes and helps them anyway and prays to his fucking God that Chewie has more heart left than anger, OR he just sends Lobot and his police, along with his regards.

A question for those more familiar with the Vong Invasion that I.... How would the absence of the Solo kids, Anakin, Jacen and Jaina impacted the war? I know Anakin had a large impact, and Jacen and Jaina were part of some twin prophecy... What would have changed with out them?

Solauren wrote: He he goes with Option B
#1 - He's got to get through a minimum of 72 enemy starfighters, flown by the 501st. Not to mention the Executors ion cannons

You are confusing the 181st Fighter Group with the 501st Stormtrooper legion.

havokeff wrote:As for Han's fate, he would still have been frozen in carbonite and there is no reason Boba wouldn't have been able to still milk Jabba for the extra dough that he did. I don't think that Jabba would have minded if Solo was dead.

Based on what exactly? Boba Fett was pretty sure that Jabba would mind - "He's no good to me dead."

-AHMAD

BountyHunterSAx wrote:

havokeff wrote:As for Han's fate, he would still have been frozen in carbonite and there is no reason Boba wouldn't have been able to still milk Jabba for the extra dough that he did. I don't think that Jabba would have minded if Solo was dead.

Based on what exactly? Boba Fett was pretty sure that Jabba would mind - "He's no good to me dead."

-AHMAD

Based on the fact that dead or alive, he is still going to be frozen in carbonite forever and that it is like Boba sold Jabba on, a work of art by Darth Vader himself.

Jabba doesn't give two shits about art. He wanted Solo to suffer for the problems he caused Jabba.

Dead, solo can't do that.

Jabba might have the life support stuff gimmicked to make it look like Solo is alive, but that's it. Jabba carrying about Solo as artwork, when Solo is now dead, is very unlikely.

He called Han a decoration in ROTJ, sure. However, that was meant more as an insult. Han Solo; Famous Smuggler, rebel hero (of a sorts), the best in the business... now reduced to a block of carbonite trapped in an unended void.

Solauren wrote:Jabba doesn't give two shits about art. He wanted Solo to suffer for the problems he caused Jabba.

Dead, solo can't do that.

Jabba might have the life support stuff gimmicked to make it look like Solo is alive, but that's it. Jabba carrying about Solo as artwork, when Solo is now dead, is very unlikely.

He called Han a decoration in ROTJ, sure. However, that was meant more as an insult. Han Solo; Famous Smuggler, rebel hero (of a sorts), the best in the business... now reduced to a block of carbonite trapped in an unended void.

I'd call death an "unended void" as well. Like I said, dead or alive, he is still frozen in carbonite. It's not like Jabba was periodically thawing Han out to gloat and the message that he is sending by placing Han in the center of his throne room wall is still undeniable; "Don't fuck with me.".