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Did the average Imperial citizen know of Palpatine's Sith status or at least his Force use? The two incidents from Revenge of the Sith against Windu and Yoda seem hard to explain away, though out of those two defeating Windu and company would raise more eyebrows than a mysteriously damaged Senate chamber.

No, very few knew of Palpatine's status as a Force magus and even less knew he was a Sith Lord. The cover story that was fed to the public is eminently plausible. Here were four Masters against one of the most secure buildings in the galaxy defended by another Master and the most elite Grand Army units. Even then, Palpatine narrowly survived and was permanently disfigured in the process. Later, savvy, high-ranking Imperial citizens could have put two and two together. How could the Emperor control his cadre of Dark Jedi and Sith acolytes unless he himself was an especially powerful Force magus? The only alternative explanation was that the Emperor was an irrelevant figurehead and his continued occupation of the Throne served everyone's interests. This was a rather common perception, admittedly. At least before Endor. After his resurrection, the cat was pretty much out of the bag for good.

In The Truce at Bakura, the Imperial Governor of the planet flatly dismisses Alliance reports of Palpatine's Force capabilities. One can only assume that the Emperor hid his true status from all the but the closest of his inner circle; even with the Jedi villified, the Sith were marred with a grim reputation extending back millennia. Being associated with either group would have been very bad PR.

IIRC, Palpatine's survival of the first attempt on his life was credited to Anakin's intervention. The incident in the Senate Rotunda occurred without any apparent witnesses ouside of Palpatine's immediate control, and the damage could easily be explained away; after all, we are talking about a man who managed to turn much of the galactic populace against an order that had loyally defended civilization for hundreds of generations in a matter of months.

How does he explain what happened to Anakin? Did he say he died in the attempt to save him?

I believe, and don't take this as gospel, that Anakin Skywalker was reported as having been killed by Obi-Wan Kenobi, presumably in the same incident that saw Darth Vader borged.

And what about Darth Vader's very Sith title?

Vader's status as a Sith Lord WAS common knowledge, though the significance of the honorific "Darth" was lost to obscurity by then. Everyone just assumed it was his first name. A bigger intelligence coup would have been inventing a Master Jedi Knight where once there was none. Tricky, but completely doable; considering everyone who knew better was either dead, willfully partaking of the delusion or on the winning team.

Darth Raptor wrote:I believe, and don't take this as gospel, that Anakin Skywalker was reported as having been killed by Obi-Wan Kenobi, presumably in the same incident that saw Darth Vader borged.

I believe in Dark Lord it states Anakin officially died in the fighting at the Temple.

Darth Raptor wrote:No, very few knew of Palpatine's status as a Force magus and even less knew he was a Sith Lord. The cover story that was fed to the public is eminently plausible. Here were four Masters against one of the most secure buildings in the galaxy defended by another Master and the most elite Grand Army units. Even then, Palpatine narrowly survived and was permanently disfigured in the process. Later, savvy, high-ranking Imperial citizens could have put two and two together. How could the Emperor control his cadre of Dark Jedi and Sith acolytes unless he himself was an especially powerful Force magus? The only alternative explanation was that the Emperor was an irrelevant figurehead and his continued occupation of the Throne served everyone's interests. This was a rather common perception, admittedly. At least before Endor. After his resurrection, the cat was pretty much out of the bag for good.

Death Star implies that not only is Wilhuff Grand Moff Tarkin unaware that Palpatine is a Force magus and Sith Lord, but is unaware that Darth Vader is even a Sith Lord. Whether this is meant to be a systematic retcon - that Vader's status as a Sith Lord specifically, and the successor of Darth Maul or Darth Tyranus, was not common knowledge, even amongst the ruling class - or just skepticism on the part of Tarkin is unknown. However it is doubtful even a well-educated man like Tarkin grasped the precise dynamological distinctions between a Jedi Knight, a dark Jedi, and a Sith Lord - specifically one of the Order of the Sith Lords. One ought to recall that the explicit existence of the Banite Order of the Sith Lords was never well-established to the public, to say nothing of its conventions and doctrine as distinct from its ancestral cults. In addition, the Jedi themselves were always a rather obscure and cloistered cult, and one doubts there are many well-versed Jediologists in the ruling class of the Galactic Empire, given that the Inquisitorius eradicated "everything that smacked of the old ways." The Great Purge only began with the Jedi purge, but continued until it reached the ranks of the Armed Forces and the employees of the Imperial State: Jace Dallin, a post captain in the newly-reorganized Imperial Navy, was promptly executed for defending the reputation of the Jedi on the grounds of their war conduct before Lord Vader.

the way I've gotten is that while Vader's status as a Sith (lord) is pretty much common knowlage, Palpatine is considered (by the public and pretty anyone not in his inner circle) as a normal human (and may or may not be a simple figure head for the "true" power within the empire).

As for the dark side elite, how many know of it's existance?

Tarkin seems to believe that Vader is a Jedi, or perhaps a dark Jedi, or somehow associated with them as indicated by ANH:

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote:The Jedi are dead. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You my friend are all that's left of their religion.

The Original Nex wrote:Tarkin seems to believe that Vader is a Jedi, or perhaps a dark Jedi, or somehow associated with them as indicated by ANH:

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote:The Jedi are dead. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You my friend are all that's left of their religion.

Not necessarily; the common perception of the Sith was that they were merely a sect of schismatic Jedi (KotOR II and various sources, up to LotF, though I personally disregard those last ones as a matter of principle). So, he might work from the assumption that he is an original Sith without direct Jedi connections.

I suppose it would depend on how knowledgeable Tarkin is on the history of the Jedi/Sith schism to properly understand the relationship.

It's almost as if the story then was that Darth Vader is a separate person from Anakin Skywalker and his betrayal of the Jedi order was a public fact. But that is not possible since we all know Lucas had everything figured out from the beginning.

By the time of the Empire, not alot of people know what a Jedi or the Force even was. Han didn't believe in the Force and for the most part, thought it was tricks and such. That one guy on the Death Star flat out called Vader and the Force old myths and nothing more than tricks, delusions and "sorceror's ways."

There was a ban on knowledge on the Force wasn't there?

Darth Ruinus wrote:By the time of the Empire, not alot of people know what a Jedi or the Force even was. Han didn't believe in the Force and for the most part, thought it was tricks and such. That one guy on the Death Star flat out called Vader and the Force old myths and nothing more than tricks, delusions and "sorceror's ways."

There was a ban on knowledge on the Force wasn't there?

Well it seems likely that the Jedi, though well-known, were not well-understood, and therefore misconceptions, rumor, and disinformation about them could very well pre-exist the rise of Palpatine, and make deliberate denunciation and reeducation efforts by the New Order much easier to accomplish. Remember that the Jedi were never very numerous in the first place, and quite rarely encountered. This isn't something like the race riots of the 1960s or the war protests (note the former is more obscure than the latter, and you probably could find non-blacks from the time period who don't recall them well), but rather much more obscure and rumor-rife. Furthermore, by ANH nearly a generation has passed since the Jedi were purged, and it was followed up by a systematic purge of "everything that smacked of the old ways" by the Inquisitorius. One can only guess at the intensity and sophistication of the propoganda campaigns waged against the Jedi, but considering that the Empire was able to convince people that clone warfare was a terrible and dangerous thing (in order to publicly ban and proscribe it), that the Imperial Marines were not clones, and that cloning had been phased out, despite the fact that the Grand Army of the Republic was openly acknowledged to be based on clone manpower, gives a hint of their skill and pervasive reach.

It is worth noting that by 35 rS, a mere two decades after the Great Purge, the very existence of the Force was openly denied by Han Solo, an experienced spacer who was not lacking in adventures of his own.

35 rS?

Darth Ruinus wrote:35 rS?

The Great ReSynchronization, the bipartisan dating system of the Star Wars Galaxy.

The Date in question is ANH, or 0 BBY, which is 35 rS, or 35 years after the Great ReSynchronization.

Karmic Knight wrote:

Darth Ruinus wrote:35 rS?

The Great ReSynchronization, the bipartisan dating system of the Star Wars Galaxy.

The Date in question is ANH, or 0 BBY, which is 35 rS, or 35 years after the Great ReSynchronization.

It's a reaction to those of us (like Publius and myself) who think that having a dating system based around a single battle in universe is retarded. I however, differ from M. Publius in that I believe BBY and ABY are far more "user friendly", as it were, and work just fine when discussing dates in real life.

I still find it hard to believe that nearly all knowledge of the Jedi specifically and the Force in general was wiped out in only a single generation. How can the Empire be THAT good at wiping out information and replacing it with propaganda?

Then again, Palpatine used his powers to make countless billions of people forget the Lusankya being installed on Coruscant. Maybe he and his dark side acolytes had a little influence as well?

Swindle1984 wrote:I still find it hard to believe that nearly all knowledge of the Jedi specifically and the Force in general was wiped out in only a single generation. How can the Empire be THAT good at wiping out information and replacing it with propaganda?

Then again, Palpatine used his powers to make countless billions of people forget the Lusankya being installed on Coruscant. Maybe he and his dark side acolytes had a little influence as well?

Originally, I thought it was 40 years at least between epIII and IV. It was more believable to me. Once I found out it was only 20, it sounded a bit ridiculous, especially since someone like Han didn't know anything about it...yeah right. How old is he at the time of ep IV, 21?

Jedi were rare -- for a real life counterpart, think of myths pertaining to yogi's, shaolin monks, samurai, etc. Any knowledge tied to their official capacity as enforcers of the Republic was probably wiped permanently... probably the only people with actual knowledge would be government officials. I doubt the Jedi were a transparent organization to the public at large.

TK-984 wrote:Jedi were rare -- for a real life counterpart, think of myths pertaining to yogi's, shaolin monks, samurai, etc. Any knowledge tied to their official capacity as enforcers of the Republic was probably wiped permanently... probably the only people with actual knowledge would be government officials. I doubt the Jedi were a transparent organization to the public at large.

I don't know...If some old Japanese guy told me he was one of the last samurai and he started swinging the katana around like an expert, I'd probably believe him. I wouldn't call him lucky or say I've never head of bushido.

A person might keep their mouth shut for 20 years for fear of execution, but you can never forget. Forbidden knowledge is especially hard to forget.

This is especially true if you read EU and what hero Anakin was supposed to be. He was all over the freakin tv and an idol to billions. How can they all forget what Jedi are about, especially with freedom of press for so many centuries?

The only way something like this would work is if several generations passed and those with memories actually died out. Think of ninja and how mysterious and unbelievable they are to many today. Although ninja are probably not a good analogy since they are more like Sith while Jedi seem to be parallel to Samurai. I can easily buy that the Galaxy forgot all about the Sith, but Jedi? Come on...

When making such considerations, one must take into account that the Jedi were very few in numbers on the galactic scale; about 10,000 is the accepted figure for the Prequel era, I believe. In a galaxy with a total sentient population of quintillions (absolute minimum), most will not have seen one; they would be a legend, especially given their apparently discreet dealings. One would also suppose that they were mostly limited to the Galactic Core; media portrayals would be the closest any ordinary citizen would have come to them, and propaganda portrayals such as the Clone Wars cartoon would not have been very convincing. In Han Solo's case, this is especially so; he is not old enough to remember the Order from any first-hand sources in the first place, and with his deeply held scepticism of "magic" and hocus pocus (increased after his stay with a real "magician" and con artist, Xaverri, thereby learning the trade) it is reasonable that he would dismiss whatever he did learn of them as hearsay or outright fraud.