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I'm trying to write a bit of fiction and am lacking certain details about the size and composition of the Empire at the time of the battle of Endor that I was hoping that somebody could clear up for me.

Specifically I'm wondering about the total number of Star Destroyers and SSDs that the empire had in working order at the time as well as the number of worlds that the empire ruled at approx 4-10 ABY

Meh, the data is a big mess, my friend. You're going to get a lot of wildly different answers from different people depending on their "big picture" analysis, their own take and stress on suspension of disbelief, how they rate sources, and what ad hoc rationalizations they made in response to this prompt.

My recommendation is check Curtis Saxton's Technical Commentaries at theforce.net/swtc, and the Domus Publica at domuspublica.net.

In short, the Galactic Empire on the eve of the Battle of Endor was the most powerful galactic superpower in history, and occupied more territory under its jurisdiction than any other before or since. It comprehended at least twenty-five thousand Imperial-class Star Destroyers, and possibly likely many times that figure for several reasons (I can elaborate if you're looking for upper/scale-realistic estimates as opposed to lower limits). At least a dozen or so Executor-class starships have been constructed, perhaps many more. The Empire contains over one million Senatorially-enfranchised Member States and over fifty million dependencies (whether this figure includes Member States' dependencies or just those with a direct relationship to the Imperial State is unknown). This includes comprehends billion of worlds across hundreds of billions of star systems. Keep in mind that the Death Star II was 60% constructed in-situ directly from raw materials and successfully concealed within the budget of a minor front agency of the Imperial State, and without significant impact on the galactic economy. The completed Death Star II would mass on the order of ten billion Imperial-class Star Destroyers or around one hundred and eighty Death Star I's.

According to the EU, the Empire is composed of 1 million member worlds and 50 million colonies, protectorates, territories, etc.

The number of ships is vague, and what little information provided by the EU is contradictory and often minimalistic. There are supposedly 25,000 ISDs in the entire Empire, although other parts of the EU state that there are 24 ISDs in each sector fleet and that there are many thousands of sectors. The Executor was one of four original ships of its class, although more sister ships have shown up in the EU. No information exists on the number of other Star Destroyer classes.

Is anyone going to be spitting bullets and sending me hate e-mails for going with a figure of 25k SD and 18 SSD in the fic as opposed to the higher estimates?

Todeswind wrote:Is anyone going to be spitting bullets and sending me hate e-mails for going with a figure of 25k SD and 18 SSD in the fic as opposed to the higher estimates?

Look it's your story, do it the way you want it done. Who gives a shit whether people get hung up over the numbers or not, ultimately their going to like it for the meat of the story. If it's good than the numbers are a minor quibble.

Todeswind wrote:Is anyone going to be spitting bullets and sending me hate e-mails for going with a figure of 25k SD and 18 SSD in the fic as opposed to the higher estimates?

No. But if those ships are a huge investment and irreplaceable losses or bankrupt a polity, it will be ridiculous considering their other industrial exertions. As he said, its your story, go with what you want.

Todeswind wrote:Is anyone going to be spitting bullets and sending me hate e-mails for going with a figure of 25k SD and 18 SSD in the fic as opposed to the higher estimates?

Probably.

I thought that the higher number of ISDs derived from the Sector Fleets can be reconciled with the 25,000 ISD figure by the words Imperial Navy. Since, IIRC, 25,000 ISDs are mentioned to be in the Imperial Navy, while the other ISDs are simply Sector Fleets. I remember someone else on this board was suggesting this too, but I can't remember who it was right now.

When the official numbers are unrealistic or contradictory there are usually creative ways to rationalize them. Say that 25,000 hulls were built as part of the Imperator I's original, immediate, postwar production run, but there should be at least a few million of the ships in service by the Battle of Endor.

I have no problem with there being only 25,000 Imperial mk1 & 2s. compare that with 1 eclipse and 4 sovereigns, and plot them on a graph of power vs number produced (power on a logarithmic scale would be easiest). Integrate under the curve from the Eclipse to the Acclamator to get the total number. Gets a few million ships.

Ender wrote:I have no problem with there being only 25,000 Imperial mk1 & 2s. compare that with 1 eclipse and 4 sovereigns, and plot them on a graph of power vs number produced (power on a logarithmic scale would be easiest). Integrate under the curve from the Eclipse to the Acclamator to get the total number. Gets a few million ships.

Uh, you can artificially fit them to an arbitrary curve, and that...is conclusive? That's the definition of axiomatic argument.

Han Solo, speaking of "a lot of command ships" in the canon RotJ film, does not make the Executor-class Super Star Destroyers sound rare in the galaxy, especially if he is unsurprised to see one commanding a small flotilla at Endor. Likewise, the already mentioned implications of scale present in the Death Star, completely ignoring EU numbers, make a very small fleet illogical at best, as does Ep I; a private company has enough "battleships" (in truth armed merchantmen, but that is an issue aside) to completely interdict a planet, hundreds at least. Those are a part of their standard security detail and available at negligible costs.

For patrolling billions of systems, 25,000 Star Destroyers are a joke; that is vastly less militarisation than Italy would have if the Swiss Guard was the sum of its armed forces. The canon figures are much higher, if one goes by WEG (in addition to Executors being Sectorial command ships, the average Moff having Torpedo Spheres readily available, &c.). Then again, it is your fanfic, so you can basically write whatever you like. And there are always morons and trolls on the Internet who may attack what you post, so that should not be a consideration.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Ender wrote:I have no problem with there being only 25,000 Imperial mk1 & 2s. compare that with 1 eclipse and 4 sovereigns, and plot them on a graph of power vs number produced (power on a logarithmic scale would be easiest). Integrate under the curve from the Eclipse to the Acclamator to get the total number. Gets a few million ships.

Uh, you can artificially fit them to an arbitrary curve, and that...is conclusive? That's the definition of axiomatic argument.

Seeing as how the data points that define the curve are provided by the canon I fail to see how this is arbitrary. I can point to the stated production runs of certain classes of ships, the evidential citation proves the accuracy of the plotting coordinates. If I just stated that there must be 3,000 Executor class ships because 3,000 is "plenty of command ships" then you would have a point - I'd be treating the number of Executors as self evident. That is not the case here. I am drawing a curve based off provided information, and can modify it accordingly. The closest this gets to being axiomatic is that the method is part of statistical analysis, and flows from mathematical theory.

Ender wrote:Seeing as how the data points that define the curve are provided by the canon I fail to see how this is arbitrary. I can point to the stated production runs of certain classes of ships, the evidential citation proves the accuracy of the plotting coordinates. If I just stated that there must be 3,000 Executor class ships because 3,000 is "plenty of command ships" then you would have a point - I'd be treating the number of Executors as self evident. That is not the case here. I am drawing a curve based off provided information, and can modify it accordingly. The closest this gets to being axiomatic is that the method is part of statistical analysis, and flows from mathematical theory.

Actually, its completely arbitrary. This is the equivalent of doing intel by finding out the number of cutters in a some foreign Navy, and the number of Fleet Carriers, and fitting it to some curve, and then declaring that you now know the number of ships afloat of any given tonnage by referencing your curve. Why must the number of Executor-class starships and Imperial-class starships fit a well-defined curve? Why must it be logarithmic? You're treating that premise as an axiom. Even known linear relationships (you have not established beyond axiom why the relationship from volume to hulls-afloat must be log-log curve) require two data points to define; a curve is not well-defined by only two data points. There could easily be several inflection points in the enormous gulf between the 2 Eclipse and 4 Sovereigns and 25,000 ISDs. Not to mention the 2nd Eclipse was a fluke because of the destruction of the first. Trying to nail down reductionist relationships based at in part on whimsical political decisions sounds shifty to me; and not the least because you never have demonstrated why naval construction must adhere your curve.

This is disregarding obvious contradictions with evidence; the Acclamator does not appear to outnumber the Imperial-class in the Imperial era, going by the same standard of proof used to establish a figure of a dozen or so Executor-class ships (you're talking about Saxton's log ships-afloat-versus-volume chart).

There's no reason to accept 25,000 ISDs and reach for straws trying to rationalize it in your fanfic. Just shitcan it as the retarded number that it is. Who cares if WEG says so? Would you write your fanfic trying to work around Traviss's conspiracies? To accept such stupidity would be to succumb to the inclusionism that was criticized in a recent thread here. If something is stupid or an insult to Star Wars, just don't use it. WEG doesn't even agree with its own number in other parts of its sourcebooks. As I said before, they also claimed that there are 24 ISDs per sector, and that there are many thousands of sectors.

Ultimately, your fanfic should be concerned about telling a good story. The numbers are really trivial as long as your story doesn't focus on them. Zahn was minimalist, but most people liked his novels. Traviss was deservedly bashed because she decided to push her agenda, pervert the SW saga, and make it all about her retarded numbers rather than telling real SW stories.

WEG is not responsible for the 25,000 ISD number; its figures expressed rule it out. Its from the mouth of Admiral Pellaeon in Spectre of the Past, and also in the old SW Encyclopedia.

In that case it becomes very easy to rationalize things. Pellaeon was being stupid, or talking out of his ass

Jim Raynor wrote:There are supposedly 25,000 ISDs in the entire Empire, although other parts of the EU state that there are 24 ISDs in each sector fleet and that there are many thousands of sectors.

Doesn't the ISD sector fleet size range from 24 to 72; depending on the sector's distance from the Core Worlds as well?

Jim Raynor wrote:In that case it becomes very easy to rationalize things. Pellaeon was being stupid, or talking out of his ass

Remember, this is the same guy who served as a captain for, what, thirty years, and thought that the construction costs of the original Executor nearly bankrupted the Galactic Empire. . .

Should I run my old calc about how many ISDs the Empire could build in a day based on the construction rate of the DSII?

There's always other things to bear in mind, ie, political background that may or may not be taken into consideration.

25,000 ISDs being 'less militarized than Italy' kind of seems to assume that the 25,000 ISDs are the only ships available-- there are doubtless many, many more lighter cruisers, destroyers, frigates, etc that would supplement these ISDs, making the Empire more heavily militarized, with fleets made up of a handful of ISDs but escorted by several dozen Nebulon-B types, for example, or Carracks.

Also, bear in mind that 25,000 ISDs may be those ISDs which are curently Active at any given time and available for deployment, and may not include those that are on maintenance or leave rotations, or even Reserve forces that would require time for call-up (I don't know if the Empire had Reserves, though).

Depnding on how some officers (in this case, Pellaeon) felt about the state of the Navy, he may have considered certain types of ISDs to be the 'backbone of the fleet' and anything to be a superfluous waste of resources. If he was a "mr leading edge latest-is-greatest" type, he might consider the ISD-II to be the only ship worth mention and anything before it, even the ISD-I, to be obsolete and a second-rate ship.

That's the problem with going off of characters' words when trying to determine fleet estimates-- you're at the mercy of how that character may perceive the fleet as well, even a career officer with years of experience.

Look at it this way, I you asked me about the US Army, and then you asked Mike Sparks about the US Army, you'd get two totally different answers about what is (and what should be) important to the US Army. To someone who has no idea who Mike Sparks is, his opinion may come across as just as valid and reasonable at first glance.

In this case, I went by the majority of the EU (Bantam/Del Rey books and Dark Horse comics), which tend to treat the ISD as the be-all, end-all of the Imperial Navy, since that was what the source for the number was implying. In WEG's case, I seem to recall the OOB giving the numbers of lesser ships in a Sector Group.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Actually, its completely arbitrary. This is the equivalent of doing intel by finding out the number of cutters in a some foreign Navy, and the number of Fleet Carriers, and fitting it to some curve, and then declaring that you now know the number of ships afloat of any given tonnage by referencing your curve. Why must the number of Executor-class starships and Imperial-class starships fit a well-defined curve?

Given a standard fleet, squadron, and task force construction like we know they use from the ISB we can make a rough estimate to their total tonnage. We know such craft do fit a relative curve - their OOB, while not held to the same strict standards as the army or marine OOB, still calls for standard structures such as the attack line and recon line. Since it builds from these structures you can make an OOM estimate. Are there going to be outliers? Probably. But that doesn't invalidate the entire thing.

You compare this to guessing on naval strength based off the number of carriers and cutters. But if I know that carrier groups are based off of X tonnage and coastal patrols have Y tonnage, and I know the number of carriers and cutters, then I can estimate X and Y. I don't need to know all the terms of the equation to determine what is proportional to what.

Why must it be logarithmic? You're treating that premise as an axiom.

It's a logarithmic scale because I don't know where I can buy graph paper that will let me plot (25,000; 10000000000000000000000000). If you do know where to get some and feel like graphing this for me, go right ahead.

Do note that there is a difference between a curve defined by a logarithmic function, and graphing something on a logarithmic scale.

Even known linear relationships (you have not established beyond axiom why the relationship from volume to hulls-afloat must be log-log curve) require two data points to define; a curve is not well-defined by only two data points. There could easily be several inflection points in the enormous gulf between the 2 Eclipse and 4 Sovereigns and 25,000 ISDs. Not to mention the 2nd Eclipse was a fluke because of the destruction of the first.

Yes, hence why I attribute only 1 Eclipse.

Trying to nail down reductionist relationships based at in part on whimsical political decisions sounds shifty to me; and not the least because you never have demonstrated why naval construction must adhere your curve.

That it must? No. But given the structure of base units it seems probable. Plus this is a rough estimate, not to tell you that there are 8,962 Mandokiller class cruisers. Obviously you aren't going to be able to tell how many Venators were made, only how many ships of that volume or power or whatever your other axis is; and since it is a best fit curve it will again only be an estimate.

This is disregarding obvious contradictions with evidence; the Acclamator does not appear to outnumber the Imperial-class in the Imperial era,

Amazing how something 6 years old doesn't appear very often in 30+ years of story. Let's use some common sense here - the newest SotG says that Acclamators were produced in proportion to the GAR. Unless you want to argue that the GAR, and resultant stormtrooper corps is less then 400 million strong, more Acclamators were built then ISDs. Which means that they or an equivelant ship (something capable of moving division strength) should still be around, in sufficient numbers. Which would dwarf the number of ISDs. The number of stormtroopers is said to be greater then the army and navy combined in the ISB, they need spacelift capacity out the ass and once you start getting bigger then an Acclamator you run into problems landing on the surface. Which means you need to carry insertion vessels, which is few troops per hull, so you need more or bigger ships...

going by the same standard of proof used to establish a figure of a dozen or so Executor-class ships (you're talking about Saxton's log ships-afloat-versus-volume chart).

That is where I lifted the idea from, yes. Though the Executor was not the only type of command ship, so a few dozen Executors and a number of ships like Geil's battleship, Mandators, Jerec's ship, etc could make up the difference. In either respect, 60 or so Executors is still a lot.

Ender wrote:Given a standard fleet, squadron, and task force construction like we know they use from the ISB we can make a rough estimate to their total tonnage. We know such craft do fit a relative curve - their OOB, while not held to the same strict standards as the army or marine OOB, still calls for standard structures such as the attack line and recon line. Since it builds from these structures you can make an OOM estimate. Are there going to be outliers? Probably. But that doesn't invalidate the entire thing.

The same Sector Groups which are all over the place in size, which the ISB fingers as goals or minimums for Outer Rim sectors? Which are capable of being greatly augmented within the existing force structure? Those well-defined ratios of tonnage?

Ender wrote:You compare this to guessing on naval strength based off the number of carriers and cutters. But if I know that carrier groups are based off of X tonnage and coastal patrols have Y tonnage, and I know the number of carriers and cutters, then I can estimate X and Y. I don't need to know all the terms of the equation to determine what is proportional to what.

So if you know the numbers of x, and the mass of x, and the numbers of y, and the mass of y...you know x and y? That's what you just said. The point is that if there were a million ISDs or 25,000 or 100 you could fit them to a curve with a few dozen Executors. The fact is we don't know how many Executors there were, and the evidence used to fix the Executor figure is circumstantial. Similarly, the number of Eclipse-class ships built is arbitrary, as is the number of Sovereigns. That's what they ended up builiding, but we have no idea what the given production run was supposed to be. Furthermore, they were built half by a pocket Empire in the Deep Core. You're crossing figures from the peacetime Empire of ANH or TESB with figures from throughout the Civil Wars of 39-46 rS by the Empire proper, by a renunified Empire, while there was attrition and construction due to war the whole way. The idea that these figures should all line up some arbitrary log curve is absurd to me.

Ultimately, Saxton put some ship numbers on a curve because it made a method to the madness. But that hardly proves because the curve can be drawn that necessarily given starships of given tonnage must have been built throughout the history of the Empire along the given quantity.

Ender wrote:It's a logarithmic scale because I don't know where I can buy graph paper that will let me plot (25,000; 10000000000000000000000000). If you do know where to get some and feel like graphing this for me, go right ahead.

No, I mean why should the relationship between a circumstantial figure of Exes and Pellaeon's ISD figure be authoritative?

Ender wrote:Yes, hence why I attribute only 1 Eclipse.

Even though the author said that Eclipse was 17.5 km because it was Palpatine's Eclipse, and the standard production run would be a neat ten miles, or 16 km? Implying that it was not a Palpatine-particular design? I can't escape the feeling that you're cherry picking because you want things to line up on a chart, even if that chart is arbitrary and non-authoritative.

Ender wrote:That it must? No. But given the structure of base units it seems probable.

Because you say so? What if Imperial doctrine calls for a large number of intermediate ships?

Ender wrote:Amazing how something 6 years old doesn't appear very often in 30+ years of story. Let's use some common sense here - the newest SotG says that Acclamators were produced in proportion to the GAR. Unless you want to argue that the GAR, and resultant stormtrooper corps is less then 400 million strong, more Acclamators were built then ISDs. Which means that they or an equivelant ship (something capable of moving division strength) should still be around, in sufficient numbers. Which would dwarf the number of ISDs. The number of stormtroopers is said to be greater then the army and navy combined in the ISB, they need spacelift capacity out the ass and once you start getting bigger then an Acclamator you run into problems landing on the surface. Which means you need to carry insertion vessels, which is few troops per hull, so you need more or bigger ships...

So guesswork. The canon obviously implies the Acclamator was largely retired or sent to the breakers, with a minority of serving ships (as space warfare combatants, not as troopships) and some sold into civilian or auxiliary service.

Ender wrote:That is where I lifted the idea from, yes. Though the Executor was not the only type of command ship, so a few dozen Executors and a number of ships like Geil's battleship, Mandators, Jerec's ship, etc could make up the difference. In either respect, 60 or so Executors is still a lot.

I don't see how because you've charted them, you can say, oh yeah, ships larger than the ISD cannot exist in numbers above x, and ships smaller should be at number y. Political whim and military doctrine is not constrained by a curve of mass versus quantity. They will build whatever they need. And its especially specious considering the time span over which you draw the data points for your chart.

Maybe when Pellaeon talked about 25000 star destroyers, he meant those under Regional and Strategic control, and not those attached to sector commands which were tied down defending their home territory. Hell, Sector fleets probably defected en masse to the New Republic, so why would you count them as any kind of stable fighting force?