Another question I came up with from RoTJ - Only 2 Siths?

[Superman]

After watching "Return of the Jedi" for the first time in a couple of years, I noticed that the Emperor and Vader planned to convert Luke to the dark side. If they had been successful, wouldn't that mean that he would have broken the so called "Rule of Two?" Did Palpatine not really care about the rule? Would Luke have been some kind of "dark Jedi" and not a true sith? I noticed that an article on Wookipedia (or whatever it is) mentioned that Palpatine may have broken this rule before.

Anyway, anyone know about that?

[Admiral Drason]

I always was under the assumption that Palpy had planed for Luke to kill Vader and take his place as the Dark Lord of the Sith.

[Darksider]

Palpatine's plan was indeed to have luke replace vader.

Vader intended to turn luke and destroy the emperor alongside him.

Whenever they speak of him, they always speak of turning him to the dark side, never fully making him a sith (indeed, the word sith is never spoken in the entire OT.)

Granted, both of them probably knew each other's intent, since it is the way of the sith to betray one another, and vader was actually expected to try and kill palpatine and replace him.

Their conversations about turning luke are idle pleasentries. in which both of them are likely thinking "ill kill you first you son of a bitch."

[Singular Intellect]

I always was under the assumption that Palpy had planed for Luke to kill Vader and take his place as the Dark Lord of the Sith.

I thought it was rather blinding obvious this was the case. ROTS showed that Palpatine enjoyed watching his current apprentice killed by his new and more powerful one.

In ROTJ, when Palpatine said "Now! Fulfill your destiny! And take your father's place at my side!", I have a sneaking suspicion he didn't mean for Luke to help Vader up and dust him off.

[Superman]

Snip

Yeah, makes sense. Here's part of the article from that Wiki site.

It is worth noting that Sidious possibly broke the Rule of Two at least twice: once by training Darth Maul while still under the tutelage of Darth Plagueis; and secondly, by taking on two apprentices at once, in the form of two Jedi: Count Dooku, and the Fosh Jedi Vergere. However, Vergere was said to be merely a candidate and not a "true" apprentice. It should also be noted that this information derives from Lumiya's account to Jacen Solo, and is the only known source. In the latter case, Vergere left Palpatine's instruction, while in the former, Sidious corrected his violation true to Sith form: by murdering his Master. It also appears that Sidious approached Dooku prior to Maul's death, although details on the timing are vague. However, these could be considered careful precautions to ensure the continuation of the Sith, even if they did, technically, violate the Rule in its strictest form.

That article also goes on to make a distinction between Dark Jedi and Sith. I never knew about that, so I found it interesting.

[Stark]

Yeah, so obvious that Vader SUGGESTED THE IDEA. He's all 'nah let's convert him hey that's be cool' and the Emperor pretends he hadn't thought of it. If the 'rule of two' was important, Vader would have been pretty dumb to suggest his own replacement.

Neither of their plans (ie, use Luke to rule galaxy) makes a bit of sense to openly suggest if the rule of two was rigidly enforced at the time.

Vader clearly states that if Luke could be turned he would be a 'powerful ally', not 'and then you could have me killed and replaced by him so the Sith Police don't show up and slap you with an infringement notice'. There is OBVIOUSLY a middle ground where he's turned and they don't instantly kill each other.

[Singular Intellect]

Vader clearly states that if Luke could be turned he would be a 'powerful ally', not 'and then you could have me killed and replaced by him so the Sith Police don't show up and slap you with an infringement notice'. There is OBVIOUSLY a middle ground where he's turned and they don't instantly kill each other.

Yeah, right, that's why Vader tried to convince Luke that they could destroy the Emperor and bring order to the galaxy, and the Emperor was goading Luke to kill Vader the instant Vader was lying on the ground defenseless.

[Superman]

I thought it was rather blinding obvious this was the case. ROTS showed that Palpatine enjoyed watching his current apprentice killed by his new and more powerful one.

I just looked up the movie script, and one line has Vader saying, "It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now." This was in a private conversation with Luke.

So is Vader just giving up and accepting his fate here? Guess it's not as obvious as you thought, right?

[Stark]

Don't link disparate events, dumbass. Yes, Vader wanted to kill the Emperor, and vice versa, and they both knew that this was the case. This doesn't change the face that the suggestion would be retarded to make if there wasn't some scope for Luke to turn without resulting in one or both of their deaths - Superman's research suggests that since he wouldn't be indoctrinated into the Sith, but simply 'turned', that there isn't a problem. It's not like the rule of two is a hard limit on evil force-users, is it?

[Old Plympto]

I just looked up the movie script, and one line has Vader saying, "It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now." This was in a private conversation with Luke.

So is Vader just giving up and accepting his fate here? Guess it's not as obvious as you thought, right?

This conversation isn't really private. Stormtroopers show up behind Luke during the speech. Before they show up, it isn't a stretch to assume that officers and troopers at the landing platform were monitoring the conversation, at the very least passively which would be reviewed later.

[Stark]

Dude, the Emperor is magic. He doesn't need witness corroboration to know what Vader is doing. The point is that he expresses a private thought, and if it's the scene I'm thinking of he's obviously physically crushed by this fact. Perhaps at this point Vader has given hope on his plan of killing the Emperor - perhaps due to the Emperor's nearness and Vader's inability to get Luke up to speed beforehand.

[Covenant]

It's entirely possible that Vader, as a Dark Lord of the Being a Total Tool, was never allowed to play with Holocrons like all the other girls and boys, and so never even heard of the Rule of Two. Right? It's not like Luke did, and it's not like Anakin had heard much Sith lore by the time he became Darth Helmet. Despite being one of the most famous and arguably most powerful force users ever to exist, he constructed no Holocron, and apparently may have had several random apprentices--which appears way more in line with his Jedi upbringing than Sith.

Overall, Vader never really displayed a lot of Sith characteristics. He's blunt, obvious, petulent, apparently not that much of a planner on a Sith-scale level of deviousness, and from all indications was never entirely trained by Sidious. It does beg the question, why fixate on Anakin if he's not going to be of any more use than a clever booby-trap (senator's office) combined with an automatic baby-killer? A few HK droids would have been just as effective at that, and it seems like most of the big Jedi died from standard troopers anyway, so Vader's big role in the grand scheme of things is... what? Does Sidious start looking for someone to replace him the moment he drags his boy wonder out of the lava? Did Obi-Wan fuck Vader up so bad that he basically had such a minimalistic use that the Emperor needed a retinue of Sorcerors, Emperor's Hands, and other assitants to cover for what would normally be his apprentice's job?

[Ford Prefect]

It's entirely possible that Vader, as a Dark Lord of the Being a Total Tool, was never allowed to play with Holocrons like all the other girls and boys, and so never even heard of the Rule of Two. Right? It's not like Luke did, and it's not like Anakin had heard much Sith lore by the time he became Darth Helmet.

The idea of Yoda never once saying 'always two there are' to Anakin is positively preposterous. The notion of there only ever being two actual Sith at any one time is almost certainly common knowledge amongst Jedi.

[Darth Raptor]

How many dozens (hundreds?) of dark Force magi are in Palpatine's employ? I'm not seeing the problem. Even when Luke actually turned and had no competition for the #2 billet, he wasn't inducted into the Order of Sith Lords. I'm guessing it wasn't a high priority.

[CDiehl]

I've never understood why people assume the Rule of Two is some absolute, unbreakable rule. The Sith never struck me as so hidebound, since if they cared about rules so much, they'd be Jedi. Being evil, I imagine them considering rules to be for the other poor dumb sheep, but not for themselves.

Also, if we accept that they care so much about the Rule of Two, what makes someone an apprentice? Does just anyone a Sith teaches anything to become one, or is their some formal process? Why can't a Sith lord recruit dozens of Force-sensitive people, give them enough training to be useful as his agents, then send them out to do his bidding? The last one standing after the rest kill each other off or get killed tangling with the Jedi becomes an apprentice. Why can't a Sith lord have a single formal apprentice, plus several lesser Force-users in his service? It seems sensible not to put all your eggs in one basket.

[Lord Revan]

well Bane's version of the rule of two forbids acolytes and minions but the reason why it's done is not avoid attracting unwanted attention from the Jedi which had caused the fall of the previous orders, but this ofc won't apply post-clone wars as the Jedi Order is no more, so Palpatine might have reverted to Revan's orginal version of the rule of two (which Bane improved to fit the situation after the battle of Ruusan) which is only 2 Sith Lords at any given time but there's no limits to lesser Sith or dark jedi minions.

[the_taken]

I think people are reading too far into Yoda's line. Some rule of Sith dictating that there can only be two Sith period is dumb. I believe what Yoda is referring to is the tendency for force users to come in pairs.

Consider that Jedi and Sith have the same powers and do the same tricks, they would also organize and behave in a similar manner. Jedi have five states: Useless apprentice, useful apprentice, looking for apprentice, training apprentice, dead. But training force users to look good with a lightsaber isn't the only they do. Jedi have a dogma, and that involves going on missions for the republic. When a Jedi goes on a mission, he either leaves his useless apprentice behind with a babysitter, or takes his useful apprentice with him on a mission.

The difference between Jedi and Sith comes down to their dogmas. Jedi run around doing good things for people, hunting criminals, and making sure the galactic society holds together. The Sith on the other hand, are all about cockslapping people and killing any fool dumb enough to cross them. Sith are super jerks, which is why the Jedi decided to kill the whole lot of them dead.
This leads to the another difference between Jedi and Sith. While Jedi only take their apprentice on field trips if they promise not to get killed, being heartless, Sith send their competent apprentices to do missions in their stead. (This makes Sith a little more productive than Jedi, as they get other things done when they're not babysitting their apprentice.)

At the end of TPM, Yoda is pondering weather Obi Wan killed an apprentice Sith, and the master is now looking for a new one, or if Obi Wan killed a Sith, and there's a little Sith kid they have to hunt down. Neither is good, but Lucas wanted the audience to know that the Jedi know about and are scared of evil force users.

[Lord Pounder]

Apparently you missed quite a lot of lore. Try reading the Darth Bane books. Even Sith have rules, one of them is One Master One Apprentice. One embody power, the other to crave it. Before Bane's time there was an Army of Sith. What did they do? The weak banded together and killed the strong, diluting the strength of the Sith, techniques and abilities where lost untill Bane put them out of their misery. Palpatine broke the rule and look where it got him.

[Imperial Overlord]

Apparently you missed quite a lot of lore. Try reading the Darth Bane books. Even Sith have rules, one of them is One Master One Apprentice. One embody power, the other to crave it. Before Bane's time there was an Army of Sith. What did they do? The weak banded together and killed the strong, diluting the strength of the Sith, techniques and abilities where lost untill Bane put them out of their misery. Palpatine broke the rule and look where it got him.

Why the fuck would either Vader or Sidious consider themselves to be bound by Darth Bane's rule post ROTS? There's no Sith police. The rule of two was broken in the past and Sidious is in a vastly different position than Bane was. Why would he dogmatically follow a rule from another time and quite different circumstances, that has been broken in the past without destroying the Sith, when he's now in charge of the galaxy and trying to achieve personal immortality?

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Rule of Two is not an arbitrary dictum, it is a strategy for the survival and success of the Sith. The idea being that with only two fully-initiated Sith, the problem of infighting and self-destruction would be more restrained (though Palpatine's first betrayal by Vader and subsequent betrayal by Skywalker and then his Clonemaster, physician, one of his adepts/Hands and one of his Soveriegn Protectors shows it was hardly full-proof. Anakin Skywalker was inducted immediately - though he may not have been trained much at all in the Sith ways - because he betrayed the Jedi to Palpatine and proved his fealty to the Order. Luke Skywalker was educated in some Sith and other occult teachings, but not yet inducted because he had no yet proved his loyalty to the Order.

[Surlethe]

Wasn't Palpatine planning to become immortal and subsume the "life energies" of all other beings in the galaxy into himself? If that's the case, it seems pretty obvious the propagation of the order is not a big concern to him; he probably sees himself as the culmination of the Sith, not another link in the chain.

[the_taken]

Apparently you missed quite a lot of lore. Try reading the Darth Bane books. Even Sith have rules, one of them is One Master One Apprentice. One embody power, the other to crave it. Before Bane's time there was an Army of Sith. What did they do? The weak banded together and killed the strong, diluting the strength of the Sith, techniques and abilities where lost untill Bane put them out of their misery. Palpatine broke the rule and look where it got him.

I admit, I've only seen the movies, played the Dark Forces series, read a couple of stat books about space ships, and a couple of pages of a very thick book involving Han and Luke arguing about weather the Emperor had a non-human admiral. Yeah, I'm very ignorant about alot of things. But if it's about a fanfic about the Sith screwing themselves over, then along came a spider-Sith that screws them permanently, then I can accept that. The so called Rule of Two is a dead end idea. It's a disaster waiting to happen, and accepting it is accepting the end of the Sith at the hands of freak accidents or a run of bad luck.

Although the previous poster made a point for the argument that that's exactly what the movies (and sequel books) are about.

[Lord Revan]

Having rules, teaching and traditions is what seperates the Sith Order from a group of dark siders, granted those aren't set in stone and have been changed by the leading Sith Lord, Rule of two both Revan's and Bane's version was as said a strategy for survival as due to the nature of the Dark Side infighting and betrayal is to be expected, thus minimazing it is prudent to prevent becoming too weak due to it.

what makes the Sith so insidious (pun intended) is that they're orginized and methogical rather then doing "evil" and selfish acts for the heck of it like most dark jedi.

how ever as said there's no "sith police" that would prevent the leading Sith Lord (in this case Darth Sidious/Palpatine) from changing the rules should he see it nessery to fit his plans.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Rule of Two is not an arbitrary dictum, it is a strategy for the survival and success of the Sith.

It's a strategy that originated in a vastly different set of circumstances. Sidious and Vader are free to abandon it, as have other Sith, when they believe different courses of action would serve them better. The Emperor's plan of eventual apotheosis doesn't leave any room for Sith other than himself, for example.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Rule of Two is not an arbitrary dictum, it is a strategy for the survival and success of the Sith.

It's a strategy that originated in a vastly different set of circumstances. Sidious and Vader are free to abandon it, as have other Sith, when they believe different courses of action would serve them better. The Emperor's plan of eventual apotheosis doesn't leave any room for Sith other than himself, for example.

What makes everyone think the Sith are ipso facto disposed against immortality? And the Rule of Two was devised as a product of an era where the Sith were transcendent. The simple maxim is the proliferation of fully-initiated Sith magi will inevitably lead to factionism and infighting. This applies in any era, the only difference is the Rule doesn't help hide the Sith from the Jedi in the filmic era (but it does help conceal them from the ruling class and public, which is still important). Anyway, Luke was clearly being groomed to become Palpatine's fourth full-fledged apprenticed Sith Lord as per the DESB. And even the lesser half of the Two in the Rule of Two had a place in Palpatine's coming Sith utopia. It explicitly states how Palpatine would rule as its immortal dynasty (until he'd fully assimilated everyone) with the descendants of Skywalker as its nobility. Palpatine gains power from those he corrupts and assimilated into himself, so it is important to turn Skywalker. And the Rule of Two does appear to reduce risk compared to the previous philosophies of Sith organization. Palpatine fudged a hierarchy or sphere of lesser dark side adepts and magi to extend the reach of the Sith. This is not without precedent, as the Dark Side Sourcebook uses an example of a Sith Lord and Sith Master empowering a dark Jedi pawn/assassin which serves in his retinue. Of course, Palpatine did have two ersatz/quasi Sith Lords in his retinue, Inquisitor Jerec, former Jedi Master, and Supreme Prophet of the Dark Side Kadann, former Jedi Master. Both had extensive knowledge and talent in their own right before Palpatine found them (Jerec as the Jedi Order's resident Sithologist and Kadann as the leader of an autonomous schismatic Sith sect).