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Decided to start a new thread to discuss on the storyline of the Force Unleashed and how it ties into PT & OT. This ain't going to be a whining of how a letdown the game is. Spoilers of course...

I'm gonna assume here that Force Unleashed is kinda more "canon" than other EU novels, given Lucas involvement in the game/novel/comic. Can it be considered at the canonical level of the current and upcoming Clone Wars animated series?

For the record, I've only played the game. So for those who have read the novel/comic, input from that perspective would be much welcomed. Aside from some moments of sheer disbelief, like when Starkiller chose not to kill the Emperor (how stupid can he get), Force Unleashed brings quite an interesting perspective to OT.

For starters, apparently the Rebel Alliance was sort-of conceived by Vader and Palpatine to bring their enemies together and wipe them out in "one swift stroke". Palpatine's line on Marek death and how his death could ignite the spirit of the Rebel Alliance and it would ultimately be their undoing was ironic and amusing. Still, it strikes me as a bit convoluted that they had to train a Dark Jedi to instigate the formation of the Rebel Alliance. I mean WTF are spies for? Are Jedi really that awe-inspiring, that you need one to start the rebellion? Not to mention that both Vader and Palps got royally fucked by Starkiller at the end when he turned his back on the Dark Side... fucked as to the extent that the Sith dudes could have died. So what was it? A fucking miscalculation on how powerful Starkiller is?

Other questions and other interesting relevations:

Firstly, it seems that the Rebel Alliance insignia came from the Marek house crest. This seems weird... Did not the Rebel Alliance insignia followed that from the Old Republic?

Secondly, it appears that Vader can survive with a damaged life-support suit for some time. At least in the game, Vader's suit was seriously fried and he survived for a while... enough to let Starkiller duel the Emperor and blow up the place, and probably enough to survive his trip to the Death Star's medical facility. At the very least, we can now safely conclude that Vader's death in ROTJ was due to the Emperor's force lightning and not a damaged life support suit.

Thirdly, I don't really like how Palpatine and Vader were portrayed in the game, as being weakass losers. Vader got his ass smacked by his apprentice, Starkiller, and Palpatine too received the same treatment. At least in the game, Palpatine lost his lightsaber (but whether this is reflected in the novel?) so perhaps it explains why he could not stand his ground that well. It's kinda unsettling that having established in the PT era that Palpatine and Vader is way up there in terms of "power rank", only to be defeated single-handedly by Starkiller. It was a real WTF moment. Even Luke did not fuck up Vader that badly... and I'm pretty sure that Luke would have been killed by Palpatine in a 1-vs-1 duel. So what's the deal with Starkiller? Is he more powerful than the Skywalkers now?

The new OS databank entry on the apprentice says he was no match for Palpatine. All that posturing at the end of the story was apparantly for naught. We also see Vader and Palps getting back up seemingly untouched by Marek's final burst of energy.

And this is a further reason why comics and game stories should have never been included in the acceptable canon. So Vader's apprentice bitch smacks Palpatine and Vader, eh? I can just smell the rank odor of wank Mary Sue splattered all over the pages of the treatment that was turned in for this story.

Well, oddly enough, I think it's Lucas's Mary Sueism. "Starkiller" was originally the name of the hero in the earliest drafts of the OT, back in the 1970's. The hero was going to be Deke Starkiller; his loyal sidekick was going to be a female, a blend of Liea and Han Solo's personalities, sort of a femme-fatale swashbuckler type.

He recycles a lot of this-- Juno Eclipse was th eoriginal name for Asajj Ventriss, who was going to be Palpatine's original apprentice/co-conspirator/sucker before being replaced by Count Dooku.

Now "Juno Eclipse" is back in TF:U as a pregnant teen with a planet-busting Star Destroyer.

It's best to ignore the last half of TFU as being a hallucination Starkiller suffered as he died from explosive decompression.

Seriously, the guy was stabbed through the chest, thrown around violently into large metal objects, and hurled into deep space. He's dead.

Lord Poe wrote:And this is a further reason why comics and game stories should have never been included in the acceptable canon. So Vader's apprentice bitch smacks Palpatine and Vader, eh? I can just smell the rank odor of wank Mary Sue splattered all over the pages of the treatment that was turned in for this story.

Because KJA and Traviss were pure comic book/game authors? The media is not the problem, the problem is editorial staff and quality control that doesn't give a shit. And a big reason they don't give a shit is they've gotten used to just cruising on the Lucas run-off of no-taste, no-product-too-shitty low-standards' fans.

Rommie2006 wrote:Firstly, it seems that the Rebel Alliance insignia came from the Marek house crest. This seems weird... Did not the Rebel Alliance insignia followed that from the Old Republic?

No, the crest of the Old Republic and the crest of the Rebel Alliance look nothing alike. Rather, it is the symbol of the Empire which looks as though it has followed on from that of the Republic, while the Alliance looks as thoughit has one derived from the crest of the Jedi Order.

Not all the games are bad, some of them are pretty good and fit right in (I kinda like most of the Kyle Katarn stuff), and some of it is referenced in the movies (ie, the stuff that happened in "Bounty Hunter" being referenced when Kenobi and Fett met at Kamino)...

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Because KJA and Traviss were pure comic book/game authors?

There's no need to strawman the entirety of the EU by swinging its worst authors into the fray. A lot of the EU (before the Vong shit) was good, with a few turds in the mix.

The media is not the problem, the problem is editorial staff and quality control that doesn't give a shit. And a big reason they don't give a shit is they've gotten used to just cruising on the Lucas run-off of no-taste, no-product-too-shitty low-standards' fans.

Agreed with this point. The thing is, these pieces of crap in charge now try to cherry pick old Star Wars characters and lore and insert themselves into the universe, like we have here with this game. This is classic Mary-Sue. The Dark Force (who's weally a good guy!) user who could beat the shit out of Vader and Palpatine with one hand tied behind his back.

Good thing Yoda wasn't there; he'd be flusing Yoda's head in the nearest toilet while battling a batallion of stormtroopers.

Lord Poe wrote:
Agreed with this point. The thing is, these pieces of crap in charge now try to cherry pick old Star Wars characters and lore and insert themselves into the universe, like we have here with this game. This is classic Mary-Sue. The Dark Force (who's weally a good guy!) user who could beat the shit out of Vader and Palpatine with one hand tied behind his back.

Good thing Yoda wasn't there; he'd be flusing Yoda's head in the nearest toilet while battling a batallion of stormtroopers.

I know you absolutely whoop vader and palpatine in the game, but isn't it more reserved in the book? Remember, Vader and palpatine survived his final attack which blew a hole in the hull of the death star, and were standing over him with no visible injuries (other than darth vader missing some armor).

The way I see it, he never would have been able to defeat vader and palpatine outright, he just held palps off long enough for General Kota to get the rebel senators to the Rogue Shadow.

As for beating vader, maybe he just got lucky? You don't need to be at the same power level in order to defeat someone, Obi-Wan defeated vader, despite the differences in their force powers. And this is an older, crippled version of vader, vs. someone in his prime.

Darksider wrote:I know you absolutely whoop vader and palpatine in the game, but isn't it more reserved in the book? Remember, Vader and palpatine survived his final attack which blew a hole in the hull of the death star, and were standing over him with no visible injuries (other than darth vader missing some armor).

Oh thank goodness Vader and Palpatine survived Darth McMary-Sue's attack! He must have been holding back.

The way I see it, he never would have been able to defeat vader and palpatine outright, he just held palps off long enough for General Kota to get the rebel senators to the Rogue Shadow.

Boy, its a good thing he's so poweful to hold off a Sith Master who reamed four Jedi Masters!

As for beating vader, maybe he just got lucky? You don't need to be at the same power level in order to defeat someone, Obi-Wan defeated vader, despite the differences in their force powers. And this is an older, crippled version of vader, vs. someone in his prime.

Darksider, you're the kind of SW fan that is the problem here. You're a battered wife making excuses as to why your husband beats you.

When a thread starts with a statement like 'is kinda more "canon" than other EU novels' it's really all over from the get-go. What is canon policy, lol?

It's ironic to me that while the story is retarded in the extreme from a 'fit with movies' perspective, if you're not a rabid inclusionist it's nowhere near as bad as (say) the comics. It's silly and daft and etc etc, but at least it's not boring or another uninspired rehash of the same four battles. I'm sure the comics manage to make it deeply lame with over-elaboration, but just from the game I wouldn't mind sequels to continue the story and simply totally ignore the later movies.

The idea that the writers thought their story fit seamlessly with the movies is so daft I simply discard it.

EDIT - Oh Wayne, if you haven't already you should watch movies of the end-bossfight QTE stuff. It's so hilariously stupid on every possible level. You'll see what I mean, it's tasteless and juvenile in the extreme.

Darksider wrote: Remember, Vader and palpatine survived his final attack which blew a hole in the hull of the death star

I simply can't be reading this right. Clearly, it was a typo on Darksider's part.

Lord Poe wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Because KJA and Traviss were pure comic book/game authors?

There's no need to strawman the entirety of the EU by swinging its worst authors into the fray. A lot of the EU (before the Vong shit) was good, with a few turds in the mix.

The same could be said for Crimson Empire, and plenty of other comic books and games (recently, KOTOR both game and comic, and what about X-Wing and TIE Fighter?).

Granted, I've only observed the game being played, but I didn't get too much 'wank' from Starkiller. For all his 'bitchslapping' of the dark duo, Vader and Palpatine seemed perfectly fine. Vader wasn't even breathing hard, despite Starkiller smashing several multi-ton objects into him, and smacking him upside the head hard enough to tear his helmet off (Vader appears to spend several minutes walking around with his burnt head exposed without so much as coughing, curiously).

Aratech wrote:Granted, I've only observed the game being played, but I didn't get too much 'wank' from Starkiller. For all his 'bitchslapping' of the dark duo, Vader and Palpatine seemed perfectly fine. Vader wasn't even breathing hard, despite Starkiller smashing several multi-ton objects into him, and smacking him upside the head hard enough to tear his helmet off (Vader appears to spend several minutes walking around with his burnt head exposed without so much as coughing, curiously).

The entire game is played out within a hitpoint-based universe. It's actually kinda refreshing - after a bossfight where you chop a guy a thousand times and zap him with lighning a hundred times, it doesn't transition to a jarring cutscene where you kill him in a single attack. Everyone is a superhero.

Darth Ruinus wrote:
I simply can't be reading this right. Clearly, it was a typo on Darksider's part.

No, in the end cutscene, there is clearly a smoking hole in the death star's outer hull.

Keep in mind that to do this, Galen Marek basically had to turn himself into a force powered suicide bomber.

Also keep in mind that palpatine and vader are perfectly fine after said attack. Vader still has damage from the previous fight, but palpatine's robes aren't even singed.

Stark wrote:

Aratech wrote:Granted, I've only observed the game being played, but I didn't get too much 'wank' from Starkiller. For all his 'bitchslapping' of the dark duo, Vader and Palpatine seemed perfectly fine. Vader wasn't even breathing hard, despite Starkiller smashing several multi-ton objects into him, and smacking him upside the head hard enough to tear his helmet off (Vader appears to spend several minutes walking around with his burnt head exposed without so much as coughing, curiously).

The entire game is played out within a hitpoint-based universe. It's actually kinda refreshing - after a bossfight where you chop a guy a thousand times and zap him with lighning a hundred times, it doesn't transition to a jarring cutscene where you kill him in a single attack. Everyone is a superhero.

Sounds as fun as it looked. I really want to run Vader through that first level. The Battlefront games were cool, but they didn't capture the feel of the Jedi/Sith I felt.

Darksider wrote:No, in the end cutscene, there is clearly a smoking hole in the death star's outer hull.

The game doesn't seem to bother to represent the effects of explosive decompression. Marek somehow survives floating exposed in space for a good amount of time (at least a minute), and in both endings, the hull in Palpatine's observation room is breached (Dark Side ending Marek's ship is thrown through the window to crush him; Light Side ending the build-up of Force energy causes the windows to shatter, and the Rebel leaders flee to Marek's ship outside).

Edit - Correction, in the Dark Side ending, Palpatine throws him outside (next to the corpse of Bail Organa), without any evidence of a vaccuum.

perhaps there was some sort of atmospheric containment field around the observation room for the duration of the DS1's construction, or maybe palpatine likes to take a stroll on the Death Star's surface or something.

As for Marek surviving the vaccuum of space, I got nothing. Does the novel say anything about him protecting himself with the force?

I know Rahm Kota was able to survive an unprotected atmospheric re-entry from low orbit above Nar shadda.

Darksider wrote:I know Rahm Kota was able to survive an unprotected atmospheric re-entry from low orbit above Nar shadda.

Yeah, that was pretty stupid too.

TC Pilot wrote:
Yeah, that was pretty stupid too.

meh. It just puts a new upper limit on jedi durability

One wonders how a lightsaber, blasters, or Force Lightning can hurt a Force user if unprotected atmospheric re-entry doesn't burn them up.

Hell, forget about the "vaccuum-induced hallucination" theory and just dump the game from canon.

An upper limit that I, for one, feel is much too high. What ever happened to the days when Jedi could be killed by having their fighters shot down?

It's not that high; it's in traffic, just like Anakin was when he fell onto a car and was fine.

It's more amusing that with all the superhero shit that happens in cutscenes, a RODIAN with a CYBERARM can kill you in a few hits.