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SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 01:26am
by Ender
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I haven't checked G&C, but I bet they have a thread there. So this one is about the SW implications of this game. Thus the title has multipurpose: Both the graphics and plot look like a steaming pile of crap.
Indeed, BioWare went to great lengths to make the ostensible villains sympathetic, going into the LucasFilm and LucasArts archives and researching the Great Hyperspace War for background on the Sith. "The Sith were literally chased out of the galaxy by the Jedi," explained Erickson. "You had an entire culture and people who were pushed out of known space. So you get these guys who come back and have a big chip on their shoulder. So if you're playing on their side as a good guy, you're not going to just go run over to the Republic, because the Republic tried to wipe out your entire people."
Yeah, wooh, them Sith are just misunderstood. Sure the Sith later kill all those Jedi babies, but in all fairness the baby was being kind of a dick. Fuck, Satan was cast out of heaven so you can be a good guy in Hell's Faction without moving over to heaven cause you have a chip on your shoulder, right?

Seriously, listen to this shit
So what is the setting for this massive epic? The Old Republic takes place 300 years after the events of the original Knights of the Old Republic games, or about 3,600 years before the events of the films. While story elements from the first two games will "definitely play a role," much has changed since the end of KOTOR II. The old Sith Empire, which had been banished into deep space after nearly being exterminated by the Galactic Republic, has reemerged. Its return came in the form of a massive sneak attack by its huge fleet reminiscent of the Cylons' fiery return in Battlestar Galactica.

A brutal war ensued, which saw the Sith's elite armies conquer dozens of worlds in the Outer Rim and sack the Republic's capital planet Coruscant. Pacifist factions within the Republic forced the signing of a treaty, leading to a fragile peace across the galaxy. Those same factions blamed the Jedi for the Republic's drubbing by the Sith, forcing the relocation of the decimated Jedi Council from Coruscant to Tython, the Jedi's homeworld.

As the game begins, the interstellar Cold War is thawing, and players will find themselves at ground zero as a new conflict begins to flare up. "Players get to come in and take the roles of heroes--or villains--at this pivotal moment where we're starting to go back into a big galactic war," promised Erickson.
Yeah. Apparently the writer's havebeen working on this for years. YEARS. And this is what they came up with? Fuck I can do better than that with the "go to random page" option on TVTropes and 45 minutes.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 02:27am
by Ohma
Article wrote:A brutal war ensued, which saw the Sith's elite armies conquer dozens of worlds in the Outer Rim and sack the Republic's capital planet Coruscant. Pacifist factions within the Republic forced the signing of a treaty, leading to a fragile peace across the galaxy. Those same factions blamed the Jedi for the Republic's drubbing by the Sith, forcing the relocation of the decimated Jedi Council from Coruscant to Tython, the Jedi's homeworld.
The fuck? First of all, why would the oldnew sith sign a peace treaty when...well...period? Second of all, why even have the first conflict happen prior to the beginning of the game?! I mean, seriously what?

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 02:41am
by NecronLord
Ohma wrote:
Article wrote:A brutal war ensued, which saw the Sith's elite armies conquer dozens of worlds in the Outer Rim and sack the Republic's capital planet Coruscant. Pacifist factions within the Republic forced the signing of a treaty, leading to a fragile peace across the galaxy. Those same factions blamed the Jedi for the Republic's drubbing by the Sith, forcing the relocation of the decimated Jedi Council from Coruscant to Tython, the Jedi's homeworld.
The fuck? First of all, why would the oldnew sith sign a peace treaty when...well...period? Second of all, why even have the first conflict happen prior to the beginning of the game?! I mean, seriously what?
So they can avoid the rediculous bit of Galaxies where NPCs would declare to all and sundry that they were members of the rebellion. A cold war lets you have Sith agents going about relatively unmolested.

I'd rather see it set a thousand years after the movies, mind. Or a thousand before. Or something else way the hell away from KotOR. It's a big universe, damnit. Though to be honest, I think a united republic and jedi order would actually have more potential: you want to play a dark sider? Prepare to be hunted down and killed. 'PVP' is one thing, but does every MMO actually have to have two major factions (Order/Disorder, Horde/Alliance, whatever {Note, I've never actually played one, so maybe I'm missing something} though I think LotR online had player characters mostly on the side of the White Council, or something to that effect) for some esoteric reason?

Taking all bets; anyone want to bet that tatooine will not appear? I'm betting it will!

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 03:42am
by The Romulan Republic
Not sure I like the treaty part. I can't see the Jedi abiding by such a treaty for very long, so they'd probably be outright traitors at this point.

However, that bit about Sith good guys is a bad sign. God forbid they start wanking the nobel Sith the way Travis did with the nobel Mandos. :roll:

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 05:38am
by Stark
Jedi homeworld, eh? Did I miss something?

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 06:28am
by Vendetta
Ender wrote:Yeah. Apparently the writer's havebeen working on this for years. YEARS. And this is what they came up with? Fuck I can do better than that with the "go to random page" option on TVTropes and 45 minutes.
Maybe they did, and the Sith are going to be villains with good publicity?

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 06:51am
by VT-16
Tython has been the origin of Jedi lore for ages. Glad to see it's finally being used.

I second the call for any future stories to be set thousands of years after the film era, if they insist on more.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 11:38am
by TC Pilot
My initial confusion was that they failed to differentiate between the Sith species (in context of the Great Hyperspace War and "banishment/culture/people," it's the only one that makes sense) and the religious order of puppy-punting mages. If they mean the former, then yes, the "shades of grey" they harp on about is plausible, since the Sith species isn't going to be some monolithic bloc of Satan's Army of the Damned. If the latter, then this is just gibberish.

Of course, it's a MMORPG, so I'm not going to even consider buying it.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 12:16pm
by Illuminatus Primus
What is with the SW Saga hack-author fixation with "magic phantom galactic power hiding off-screen...I mean in the darkness and Great Unknown". Its the worst kind of reverse deus ex machina. Enemies and opposition from nowhere. It even further underscores the ridiculousness incompetence of the KotOR era Republic and why anyone keeps Force sensitive around.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 04:12pm
by TC Pilot
It's a common enough historical event; some horde comes sweeping in from the great beyond, taking everything in its path: Huns, Arabs, Crusaders, Turks, Mongols...Mongols again, Europeans in the New World.

The Republic, the Core Worlds, etc. are all representative of that insular world all these outsiders try bashing their way ino. I'm not saying it's original, but its the reason I came up with.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 04:15pm
by Darth Raptor
Yet despite what they might have believed, Europe was not the universe. It's much more difficult to rationalize external threats to a polity for which there is no meaningful "outside".

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 04:25pm
by JGregory32
It's a common enough historical event; some horde comes sweeping in from the great beyond, taking everything in its path: Huns, Arabs, Crusaders, Turks, Mongols...Mongols again, Europeans in the New World.
Problem is these mass migrations are usually preceded by other peoples trying to get out of the way. The Goths that sacked Rome were running from the Huns for example.
Now if the Sith are moving into Republic Space becasue of Expansion pressure from say the Vong then there's a story line.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 04:50pm
by VT-16
Interesting thing to note is that the developers said in an interview, they plan to have people join factions on both sides, it's not all Sith Empire = evil, Galactic Republic = good. You can choose whether to be an evil bastard or a decent person on both sides of the conflict.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 06:50pm
by Illuminatus Primus
TC Pilot wrote:It's a common enough historical event; some horde comes sweeping in from the great beyond, taking everything in its path: Huns, Arabs, Crusaders, Turks, Mongols...Mongols again, Europeans in the New World.

The Republic, the Core Worlds, etc. are all representative of that insular world all these outsiders try bashing their way ino. I'm not saying it's original, but its the reason I came up with.
Oh, I understand what historical/mythological borrowing they used, I'm bemoaning the context-less borrowing they did. That's all good and fine for the ancient world, which was primitive and limited to sailboat, foot and mounted travel for communication and trade. The galaxy has had same-day hyperdrive travel for millennia. Spacefaring civilizations have existed for at least a hundred thousand years. No part of the galaxy should have avoided exploration and visitation and scrutiny by now. The only places out of contact or where people do not keep tabs should be those places that are not worth visiting often and which contain and are capable of containing things not worth caring about. There is no room in the plot-space for a power which logically should be capable of challenging the Galactic Republic.

Basically, Raptor got it before I did. Oddly enough, only Lucas seems to have grasped what kind of scale and universality we're talking about with the polity. His SW galaxy is all-encompassing and all within a day's travel. Everywhere you can do is on the map. If you want to create major conflicts, you either have to weaken the Republic without repudiating it conceptually (good luck), or man up and repudiate it (too pussy to try, because it explicitly deals with the undermining that all the pre-Empire stories do to the supposedly noble Old Republic). Honestly, they should just man up and contradict Lucas' concept in fact since they already are in spirit, or they should keep their stories before the Republic was formed or way after the films. By now, the films' events are the also-ran periods of galactic history, not THE major event.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-22 10:09pm
by Meest
The problem is it has to be created to work within the game, so needs to be relatively balance etc, that's the only way I can understand some of the background. The era works because people can finally be a Jedi without making it an elite rare class, though they said non Jedi will be the most badass versions and be able to compete. This is the only era were there are tons of Force users walking around. Not sure why the separation from Coruscant (and why does it get conquered so easily?), but will that be the Sith HQ?

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 12:14am
by Big Phil
Did I read this right? It takes place 300 years AFTER KOTOR? So, no Revan, no Jedi Exile, no Visas Marr, or Carth Onasi, or Mission Vao, or any other familiar characters? So how this fuck is this a KOTOR sequel if there's no closure to KOTOR? :wtf:

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 03:58am
by Darth Fanboy
VT-16 wrote:Tython has been the origin of Jedi lore for ages. Glad to see it's finally being used.

I second the call for any future stories to be set thousands of years after the film era, if they insist on more.
It was used, in the second Darth Bane book. And it was stated that in the book the Jedi had not had a presence on that world for a very long time and at the time of Bane's taking over the Sith Order it was home to little more than an army of "undead" cyborgs created by ancient Sith Alchemy. Unless there is something i'm misinterpreting from that book, using Tython, which is also said to be a very difficult planet to access, makes no fucking sense unless they are going to ignore that bit of continuity.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 05:52am
by Zac Naloen
SancheztheWhaler wrote:Did I read this right? It takes place 300 years AFTER KOTOR? So, no Revan, no Jedi Exile, no Visas Marr, or Carth Onasi, or Mission Vao, or any other familiar characters? So how this fuck is this a KOTOR sequel if there's no closure to KOTOR? :wtf:
Who said this was a KOTOR sequel? :wtf:

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 06:07am
by charlemagne
I'm not happy with the "Coruscant was conquered" part. I thought we'd finally see Coruscant in a game, but this sounds to me like they're keeping Coruscant out of the playable maps once again.

The whole "cold war" thing doesn't sound too bad (for a game, mind you), I mean it's basically the same in KOTOR1, where Sith soldiers could quite freely stroll around neutral planets and all.

The graphics look like shit, though. I hope they redesign that A LOT. I'm sick of all that "comic style" bullshit, although the devs themselves seem to love it.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 06:30am
by VT-16
Darth Fanboy wrote:It was used, in the second Darth Bane book. And it was stated that in the book the Jedi had not had a presence on that world for a very long time and at the time of Bane's taking over the Sith Order it was home to little more than an army of "undead" cyborgs created by ancient Sith Alchemy. Unless there is something i'm misinterpreting from that book, using Tython, which is also said to be a very difficult planet to access, makes no fucking sense unless they are going to ignore that bit of continuity.
There is a mention of dark side energies bothering the Jedi on Tython. Maybe the game will show the Jedi stronghold crumble under it, leading to the desolate landscape in the Darth Bane book.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 10:59am
by NecronLord
Err. To my knowledge, the Light and Darkness War which Darth Bane fought in was two thousand seven hundred years after this time. I'd call that a 'long time.' I don't see a problem.

Conversely, they could happily make Typhon out to be like that. It would provide excellent scope for lots of entry-level monsters for Jedi players to kill. The jedi haven't chosen to live there, the Republic's basically told them to.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 01:46pm
by Darth Tanner
I thought we'd finally see Coruscant in a game
It's in Empire at War, although its little different to any other city map with the exception of an Imperial palace.
It takes place 300 years AFTER KOTOR? So, no Revan, no Jedi Exile, no Visas Marr, or Carth Onasi, or Mission Vao, or any other familiar characters?
Why not? Star Wars medical technology is more than advanced enough to give people life spans in the multiple hundreds and some aliens have them anyway. Chewbacca was over 250 by ROTJ wasn't he?

Anyway how do you expect characters to have any role in an mmorpg, its not like they have a plot.
I can't see the Jedi abiding by such a treaty for very long, so they'd probably be outright traitors at this point.
You can't see the jedi keeping to a treaty? What about the genocidal raving mad sith?
So how this fuck is this a KOTOR sequel
I'm still waiting for them to finish the first sequel, let alone anything else.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 02:16pm
by Crazy_Vasey
JGregory32 wrote:Problem is these mass migrations are usually preceded by other peoples trying to get out of the way. The Goths that sacked Rome were running from the Huns for example.
Now if the Sith are moving into Republic Space becasue of Expansion pressure from say the Vong then there's a story line.
The Vong showing up in a major way at this point in the timeline would be the most hilarious piece of discontinuity this side of half the galaxy stealing the Death Star plans.

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 02:26pm
by Samuel
It is official. They hate us... they hate us for our freedoms. Okay, they just hate continuity... or logic. Or common sense.
http://pc.ign.com/articles/922/922656p1.html
For over twenty thousand years the Galactic Republic has been the force for peace and civilization in a sometimes savage and hostile galaxy. Governed by a Galactic Senate and defended by the powerful Jedi Order, the hundreds of worlds and systems enjoyed thousands of years of relative peace and security. That is, until the appearance of the Sith Empire 1500 years ago.
Insane minimalism.
The Sith Empire had been growing for thousands of years, well beyond the sight of the Republic. It had originally been established by a group of exiled Dark Jedi, who had settled on the Sith world of Korriban. As their power and territory grew, the Dark Jedi began to integrate with the Sith until the two groups were virtually indistinguishable from each other. With a whole planet of Dark Force users at the center of their empire, the Sith expanded into new territories throughout the galaxy.
A whole planet of people who are known for being so self centered you can't have more than two cooperate at a time. Yes, we have... an evil mirror!
Eventually, the expansion of the Sith Empire brought them to the edges of the Galactic Republic and the Great Hyperspace War began. The Dark Lord of the Sith Naga Sadow led the Empire to victory after victory against the Republic. The Jedi soon turned the tide, however, and took the fight all the way back to Korriban where they utterly destroyed Sith civilization.
The Sith threatened the galaxy with a single world.
Sadow and many other Dark Lords went into hiding beyond the boundaries of known space. There, in secret, they began to rebuild their power and nurse their dreams of revenge. The Dark Lord, having prolonged his life with many dark rituals, personally directed the establishment of a new fleet and a powerful Imperial army. As his military forces were gathering strength, he started infiltrating systems in the Galactic Republic's Outer Rim, fomenting dissent among the people and making secret alliances with numerous crime bosses and warlords.
Cliche. A BAD cliche.
With his fleets ready and his fifth columnists in place in the Outer Rim, Sadow finally launched his attack. The Republic and the Jedi Order, who thought Sith power had been destroyed, were taken completely by surprise. In a very short time, the Sith captured dozens of worlds along the Outer Rim and crippled the Republic by destroying the shipyards in the Sluis sector and choking off the vital Rimma Trade Route.
More crazy minimalism.
The Republic and the Jedi fought back as best as they could, but world after world fell to the Sith advance. The long war waged across the frozen wastes of Ilum and the desert plains of Dathomir. The Sith Empire destroyed everything they came into contact with, even attacking the neutral planets like Manaan. There they destroyed the entire surface of the planet, forcing the Selkath to retreat to their underwater strongholds. The Sith Empire's onslaught seemed unstoppable.
Minimalism AND evil puppy kicking. Those crazy Sith, what will they do next?
But then, with the Republic reeling from dozens of defeats, Naga Sadow did something else that wasn't expected; he offered peace terms. The Republic had already lost thousands of Jedi and numerous worlds to the Sith so, rather than risk further losses, the Supreme Chancellor agreed to enter negotiations for a settlement. The Sith used the peace negotiations as a diversion for a strike on Coruscant, the capital of the Republic. Imperial Forces sacked the planet, destroying the Jedi Temple and killing six Jedi Masters.
Apparently all democratic governments in Star Wars are idiots.
With Coruscant held hostage, the Sith Lord again offered peace terms. But this time, they were even less favorable than before. He demanded that the Republic surrender key systems in the Outer Rim and withdraw their support for several allies, including their most faithful friends, the Bothans. Facing a supply crisis and a hostile occupation in the heart of the Republic, the Supreme Chancellor had no choice but to agree.
Plot hole? If you are in such a good position, why not force a surrender? Oh yeah, because you have spent the last couple of years committing atrocities! I'm sensing more chaotic stupid here.
Unfortunately the Treaty has created a crisis of confidence in the Republic, leading to the departure of many allies and political division among the Core Worlds. As the economy worsened and the Senate lost authority, chaos spread in the streets of the Republic's capital.
I can imagine how selling out your own population would do that.
In this moral predicament, the Republic distanced itself from the Jedi Order, prompting the Jedi to move their Council from Coruscant to the Jedi homeworld of Tython. Nevertheless, the Jedi remained committed to protecting the Republic and preserving order and balance in the galaxy. With the Jedi on Tython, the Republic began training their own elite Special Forces to serve as the front line of defense in the coming war with the Sith.
More proof the Republic is run by idiots and... we had this plot line before?

Also, how are spec ops troopers going to be a replacement for Jedi?
Meanwhile, the Sith worked just as hard to ready themselves for the next round of fighting. Naga Sadow disappeared on an unknown mission, but he left behind a Dark Council to rule in his absence. Comprised of twelve Dark Lords, the Dark Council began to recruit Force-sensitive children and train them up to become Dark Jedi warriors.
It is nice when villains are considerate enough to label themselves.
Even the peaceful planet of Alderaan isn't safe from the hostilities that quickly spread throughout the galaxy.
Didn't Alderran become peaceful after the Clone Wars? Or is it cyclical phenomena?
Tython was lost for some time but, early during the war with the Sith Empire, the Jedi rediscovered it. After the Treaty of Coruscant, the Jedi have come back and started uncovering the mysteries of their past and grappling with an eldritch dark energy swirling around Tython's ancient ruins. They've also rebuilt the Jedi Temple here and begun training new Padawans to replace the thousands of Jedi who died fighting the Sith. As if they didn't already have enough to deal with, the Jedi are now coping with a recently arrived Twi'Lek pilgrim clan that has settled on the planet in violation of Republic law.

Korriban, like Tython, was lost for some time. The inhospitable planet bred strong people, and when the native Sith were subjugated and absorbed by Dark Jedi exiles, it became the center of a mighty empire. After the devastation of Korriban at the end of the Great Hyperspace War and the flight of the Sith from their homeworld, the red planet was forgotten. That is, until two Jedi veterans of the Mandalorian Wars happened to arrive while searching for a powerful weapon.

Now the Sith have reclaimed the planet and, like the Jedi on Tython, have set up their own training program. Set among the dusty tombs of generations of long-dead Dark Lords, the trials of the Sith Academy are deadly and unforgiving. Even those acolytes who pass the test must contend with the Sith notion of survival of the strongest in its most literal sense.
No comment.
Korriban is, from a dramatic standpoint at least, probably more compelling than Tython because it depicts the real lives of ordinary citizens living under this threatening and oppressive regime. There are real people here, with real homes and real jobs and the writers intend that you believe all of that, in spire of the scary and painful nature of the world. In fact, it's ultimately essential for you to believe in the real value of the ordinary subjects of the Empire if you're going to have a believable context for the seemingly evil things you'll be doing in the wider world.
So you have to be morally bankrupt to play the Sith. Good, at least they have maintained that.
It's important to note that a character's Light Side or Dark Side orientation is completely independent of their alliance with the Republic or the Empire and can even change during the course of the game. So it's possible to be a Light Side Jedi working within the Sith Empire, just as it's possible to be a Dark Side Jedi working within the Republic. In fact, the designers hope to highlight the notion of being a good person in a bad environment or a bad person in a good environment. The point is that the decision to commit good acts will be made more meaningful because of the near and present opportunity to be rewarded for committing evil.
:wtf:
The writers used Luke as an example to explain the balance they want to achieve. Yoda is so in touch with the spiritual side of the Force that he's distanced himself from the affairs of the world and other people's self-interested motives. The Emperor is at the other extreme, ruled solely by his passions and with no regard for the well-being or feelings of others. Luke walks the line between the two, being ruled by a combination of spiritual passivity and aggressive loyalty to his friends and their causes.

The trick is that Luke's ethics still permit his actions to be dictated by circumstances. The standard Jedi or Sith codes don't allow for this kind of situational flexibility, but that's exactly where the real drama and opportunity for roleplaying are. And in order for those variations in ethics to have meaning, there has to be equal opportunity to head down the right or wrong path.
Bastila from the original Knights of the Old Republic is a great example. She's an incredibly powerful companion who you need to have by your side in order to meet the challenges of the game. She's also a romantic love interest who, as a Jedi, you're supposed to resist. The challenge there is to stay true to the Jedi code in the face of a constant temptation. Or if you decide to go down the Sith path, to manipulate and exploit her in the face of her sincere devotion.
If you show unconditional love and follower here you end up becoming Sith Lord Revan again. Also, wasn't "no attachments" a latter addition?

Re: SW:TOR announced. Looks like crap

Posted: 2008-10-23 03:38pm
by VT-16
First of all, the ancient Sith Empire did not threaten a galaxy with one world. They ruled an Empire that spanned regions and once Sadow's invasion was a bust, the Republic sent in waves of task forces to completely annihilate the Sith. Basically, they committed genocide across the entire Sith Space. :shock: (At least that's what the Post-KJA materials say, they made things a little more epic than the original comic story, including under-the-table dealings with corporations in Republic space prior to Sadow's main invasion, and large-scale counter-invasions by the Republic itself :P)

I also don't see the problem with good guys within the Empire in this game, if only to justify having all those options. Not everyone in the entire empire is gonna be a cackling Sith Lord.