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Did Lucas intend for force users (Jedi, Sith) to be unstoppable killing machines when he first created them or have they become their own brainbug because of the success of the series.

Some points to consider from the origional series.

1. Luke and Jabba's henchmen - Luke gets shot in the hand by some hillbilly agent of Jabba on the sailbarge.

2. Han - Absolutely dismisses the Force as a hokey religion. This is before the retcons of the novels that suggest how every solid reference to the Jedi is erased by the Empire and their name has been trashed by propoganda. In the origional movies Han seems to have the feeling that the Force is like many other odd things he has come across nothing special.

3. ROTJ final battle - If the Jedi are the uber power they are thought to be then why is Luke not figured in any way shape or form into the battle of Endor? Until he volunteers for the commando mission there is no indication that there are plans to use him. If Jedi are the great power that the second series and books say they are then how to use Luke should have been paramount in the eyes of the Alliance leadership.

4. Vader - No respect. Vader gets no respect. Sure he gets fear but only when he uses the Force to nearly kill someone at the conference table. If the Jedi are everything they are eventually made out to be then that old fool would have never had the balls to talk the way he did until Vader started choking him.

To me it seems that while Jedi were intended to be powerful in the OT they were never implied to be "the" badasses of the galaxy. They are more like well trained Shaolin Monks in ancient China. Yes they were skilled and dangerous warriors but that didnt mean they were any tougher than anyone else who trained as hard as they did in their own martial arts.

Now with the EU and NT (New Triology) you have near unstoppable Jedi killing machines who only go down to mass numbers or someone of equal training.

Side item - I have not read a huge amount of the EU and almost nothing of the stuff placed between the two movie trilogies. Is Darth Vader known to be Anakin Skywalker? Or does the geneal public think Anakin is dead and Vader is just some agent of Palpatine? I ask because if the name Anakin Skywalker hasnt been completely forgotten then shouldnt some of the older members of the Alliance (Mon Mothma and others) be raising their eyebrows quite a bit when Luke Skywalker shows up? Unless Skywalker is like Smith or Jones and is a very common name.

Honestly, before starting a topic, actually understand the words and try not to fill the post with your own bizarre presumptions. Even if it were, you don't even try to provide evidence towards it, instead you pick events that you think help your cause in some bizarre way to come to your foregone conclusion.

Bilbo wrote:Did Lucas intend for force users (Jedi, Sith) to be unstoppable killing machines when he first created them or have they become their own brainbug because of the success of the series.

Some points to consider from the origional series.

1. Luke and Jabba's henchmen - Luke gets shot in the hand by some hillbilly agent of Jabba on the sailbarge.

Luke was not a fully-trained Jedi at that stage. He'd effectively gotten the quick & dirty crash course in Jedi combat and resisting the Dark Side.

2. Han - Absolutely dismisses the Force as a hokey religion. This is before the retcons of the novels that suggest how every solid reference to the Jedi is erased by the Empire and their name has been trashed by propoganda. In the origional movies Han seems to have the feeling that the Force is like many other odd things he has come across nothing special.

Jedi were few and far between even before the fall of the Old Republic. A lot of the old stories about their capabilities could be easily dismissed as the old farts talking about "the good old days," especially since it creates the question of "If the Jedi are so great how come they're all dead?"

3. ROTJ final battle - If the Jedi are the uber power they are thought to be then why is Luke not figured in any way shape or form into the battle of Endor? Until he volunteers for the commando mission there is no indication that there are plans to use him. If Jedi are the great power that the second series and books say they are then how to use Luke should have been paramount in the eyes of the Alliance leadership.

Luke wasn't even around when they were planning that commando mission; he took off for the Dagobah system without as far as we know a word to the Rebel Alliance command staff and showed back up just in time to volunteer for the mission. If I was a planner for the Alliance I would be disinclined to include someone in my mission planning who, as far as I knew, had gone AWOL during a battle and could be captured or dead.

4. Vader - No respect. Vader gets no respect. Sure he gets fear but only when he uses the Force to nearly kill someone at the conference table. If the Jedi are everything they are eventually made out to be then that old fool would have never had the balls to talk the way he did until Vader started choking him.

See above. Jedi were few and far between before the Old Republic fell, they got wiped out, and nobody connects Darth Vader with Anakin Skywalker. As far as the rest of the galaxy knew Anakin was dead and this Vader guy was just one of Emperor Palpatine's best thugs who somehow screwed up enough to end up in a full-body life support suit.

To me it seems that while Jedi were intended to be powerful in the OT they were never implied to be "the" badasses of the galaxy. They are more like well trained Shaolin Monks in ancient China. Yes they were skilled and dangerous warriors but that didnt mean they were any tougher than anyone else who trained as hard as they did in their own martial arts.

Now with the EU and NT (New Triology) you have near unstoppable Jedi killing machines who only go down to mass numbers or someone of equal training.

You can't really compare any sort of martial arts with the advantages the Force gives Jedi, and apparently non-Jedi Force users were even rarer than Jedi and tended to keep to themselves.

The only Force user we see cutting loose in the OT was Luke, who wasn't fully trained. We never see Kenobi or Vader take on anyone but each other or, in Vader's case, Luke -- and Vader was trying to capture Luke not kill him until the Emperor's throne room in RotJ. And even then Vader may have been holding back, even unconsciously, from chopping his son into bits.

Side item - I have not read a huge amount of the EU and almost nothing of the stuff placed between the two movie trilogies. Is Darth Vader known to be Anakin Skywalker? Or does the geneal public think Anakin is dead and Vader is just some agent of Palpatine? I ask because if the name Anakin Skywalker hasnt been completely forgotten then shouldnt some of the older members of the Alliance (Mon Mothma and others) be raising their eyebrows quite a bit when Luke Skywalker shows up? Unless Skywalker is like Smith or Jones and is a very common name.

As far as anyone knows Anakin Skywalker is dead and Vader is just an agent of Palpatine's. Mon Mothma and other Alliance leaders may well have been thrilled to have a Luke Skywalker show up as a propoganda victory -- Anakin was seen as a hero of the Old Republic after all. We never see Rebel Alliance propoganda broadcasts, after all, and they were short-handed enough that cutting someone as useful as Luke loose for a pure propoganda role may not have been considered worthwhile.

I don't normally get involved in the SW board discussions because I don't read the EU, but this bit sticks out to me:

Bilbo wrote:1. Luke and Jabba's henchmen - Luke gets shot in the hand by some hillbilly agent of Jabba on the sailbarge.

Don't you mean to say:

1. Luke and Jabba's henchmen -- barely-trained Luke gets shot in the hand by some guy... after killing the rancor, leaping out of the way of his execution in the Sarlaac, catching a lightsaber thrown from across the way while on the skiff with a bunch of people who want to kill him, then killing everyone on the skiff, jumping over to another skiff full of guys who were shooting at him and killing all of them, leaping onto the sailbarge and scaling the hull with his bare hands, then taking out half a dozen guys on top while "hillbilly henchmen" are shooting at him.

Yeah, I can see how that totally proves the point that Jedi aren't supposed to be badass.

Bilbo wrote:Now with the EU and NT (New Triology) you have near unstoppable Jedi killing machines who only go down to mass numbers or someone of equal training.

I can’t comment on the EU, but I don’t see any major inconsistencies in the portrayal of the Jedi in the original and prequel trilogies. This example in your post sticks out in my mind:

Bilbo wrote:1. Luke and Jabba's henchmen - Luke gets shot in the hand by some hillbilly agent of Jabba on the sailbarge.

Luke fought that battle pretty well by himself. (The only person besides Luke who was in any position to help spent much of the fight avoiding being eaten and digested for 1,000 years.) Luke was matched up against dozens of professional mercenaries. Attack of the Clones demonstrated that Jedi in their prime could be taken down through a sufficient application of firepower.

Bilbo wrote:To me it seems that while Jedi were intended to be powerful in the OT they were never implied to be "the" badasses of the galaxy.

Kenobi did describe the Jedi as the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Both he and Yoda regarded the restoration of the Jedi order as essential to the defeat of the Empire. I suppose you could argue bias on their part. However, the original trilogy never presents any other group of warriors in the same light as the Jedi.

The rest of your points can be chalked up to popular impressions (or lack of them) of Jedi abilities, which changed in the decades following their disappearance, as other posters have suggested.

1. Luke and Jabba's henchmen - Luke gets shot in the hand by some hillbilly agent of Jabba on the sailbarge.

The guy got lucky? Luke was having to deal with many enemies at once, and Jedi precog has been shown to be imperfect. Also, remember that Luke's training is rather patchy compared to an Old Republic Jedi. I doubt he's had more than a few weeks of proper training in his life at that point. He did well, considering.

2. Han - Absolutely dismisses the Force as a hokey religion. This is before the retcons of the novels that suggest how every solid reference to the Jedi is erased by the Empire and their name has been trashed by propaganda. In the origional movies Han seems to have the feeling that the Force is like many other odd things he has come across nothing special.

Han demonstrated ignorance of how powerful the Force really was, dismissing it as less useful than a blaster. Han's been around the Galaxy, and the Jedi were around not so long ago. In light of his comments, and the comments by the imperial on the Death Star which you later refer to, I think Imperial propoganda having dismissed most stories about the Force and Jedi is the only likely explanation.

3. ROTJ final battle - If the Jedi are the uber power they are thought to be then why is Luke not figured in any way shape or form into the battle of Endor? Until he volunteers for the commando mission there is no indication that there are plans to use him. If Jedi are the great power that the second series and books say they are then how to use Luke should have been paramount in the eyes of the Alliance leadership.

Wasn't Luke off visiting Yoda, only getting back half way through the briefing for the attack? Of course, that raises the question of how Luke could go off to Dagobah without being considered a deserter. But if anything, that suggest that Jedi were respected enough that Luke could just say "Jedi business" and leave whenever he wanted to.

Though once he got their, I'm suprised they didn't order him into an X-wing. He did take down the first Death Star after all. Again, I would see this as an example of the Jedi being respected enough that they can basically do as they wish in the Alliance.

4. Vader - No respect. Vader gets no respect. Sure he gets fear but only when he uses the Force to nearly kill someone at the conference table. If the Jedi are everything they are eventually made out to be then that old fool would have never had the balls to talk the way he did until Vader started choking him.

The guy at the table didn't disrespect his Force powers. He just didn't believe he had them. This speaks more to the ignorance of the officer (and effectiveness of Imperial propaganda) than to a lack of power on Vader's part. Hell, if we're using character dialog as evidence, Vader in the same scene said "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

To me it seems that while Jedi were intended to be powerful in the OT they were never implied to be "the" badasses of the galaxy. They are more like well trained Shaolin Monks in ancient China. Yes they were skilled and dangerous warriors but that didnt mean they were any tougher than anyone else who trained as hard as they did in their own martial arts.

Actually we do have examples in the Prequels of non-Force user who were skilled and well equipped killing or nearly killing a Jedi. Jango, and General Greivious come to mind.

Now with the EU and NT (New Triology) you have near unstoppable Jedi killing machines who only go down to mass numbers or someone of equal training.

One is killed by a bounty hunter in Attack of the Clones, who also manages to escape and nearly kill Obi-wan. Several are killed off screen by Grevious (his collection of light sabers). A number are killed by fairly small groups of clones, taken almost completely by suprise.

The Old Republic Jedi are not as powerful as you seem to think, any more than the Jedi of the original films as weak as you seem to think. Though to be fair to the Jedi, they were having their abilities clouded by the Dark Side.

Side item - I have not read a huge amount of the EU and almost nothing of the stuff placed between the two movie trilogies. Is Darth Vader known to be Anakin Skywalker? Or does the geneal public think Anakin is dead and Vader is just some agent of Palpatine? I ask because if the name Anakin Skywalker hasnt been completely forgotten then shouldnt some of the older members of the Alliance (Mon Mothma and others) be raising their eyebrows quite a bit when Luke Skywalker shows up? Unless Skywalker is like Smith or Jones and is a very common name.

I believe the official story is that Anakin died in the Jedi temple. Very few individuals initially know who he is. Though Senator Organa did. Obi-wan and Yoda seem to have kept him remarkably well informed before they went into hiding. All this is covered in the novel Dark Lord, which I strongly recommend you read.

The only brainbugs I see in regards to the Jedi are the shifts from "keepers and guardians of peace" to "celibate warrior monks" and from Yoda's "too old he is" to "take them from their families as toddlers and raise them to become socially awkward".

Bilbo wrote:1. Luke and Jabba's henchmen - Luke gets shot in the hand by some hillbilly agent of Jabba on the sailbarge.

And then Luke kills him. What's your point?

2. Han - Absolutely dismisses the Force as a hokey religion. This is before the retcons of the novels that suggest how every solid reference to the Jedi is erased by the Empire and their name has been trashed by propoganda. In the origional movies Han seems to have the feeling that the Force is like many other odd things he has come across nothing special.

And Admiral Motti calls Vader out on his "sad devotion to that ancient religion" after being scolded because "the ability to destroy a planet is insignficant next to the power of the Force."

3. ROTJ final battle - If the Jedi are the uber power they are thought to be then why is Luke not figured in any way shape or form into the battle of Endor?

What are you talking about? Luke is all the Emperor and Vader talk about, and the entire battle is just a ploy to goad Luke to fall to the Dark Side.

4. Vader - No respect. Vader gets no respect. Sure he gets fear but only when he uses the Force to nearly kill someone at the conference table. If the Jedi are everything they are eventually made out to be then that old fool would have never had the balls to talk the way he did until Vader started choking him.

Motti didn't believe in the Force. See above to the knowledge being wiped out.

Villains don't have to be respected. They're feared.

What are you talking about? Luke is all the Emperor and Vader talk about, and the entire battle is just a ploy to goad Luke to fall to the Dark Side.

I think he was refering to Lukes' lack of importance in the rebel plan, not Palpatine's fixation on the Skywalker family.

No realistic military, of any kind, will build a stratergy that focues on one man or one machine, unless absolutely required to.

Setting up Luke as the lynch-pin of an operation is an open invite for trouble if something happens to him.

Solauren wrote:No realistic military, of any kind, will build a stratergy that focues on one man or one machine, unless absolutely required to.

Setting up Luke as the lynch-pin of an operation is an open invite for trouble if something happens to him.

yes, that would be almost as rediculous as placing random jedi in charge of armies and armadas because they have Teh Force.

Except that said Jedi were trained for that work. Luke was a farmer and pilot with extremely poor proficiency in the force, military tactics, or just about any other relevant field. His only compensation is he learnt fast.

The only brainbugs I see in regards to the Jedi are the shifts from "keepers and guardians of peace" to "celibate warrior monks" and from Yoda's "too old he is" to "take them from their families as toddlers and raise them to become socially awkward".

To be fair the only socially awkward Jedi we really see is Anakin Skywalker. Anakin, the former slave child who all the masters see as the vehicle of prophecy, and has the attention of a Sith Master. Who wouldn't be screwed up with that kind of baggage.

Themightytom wrote:yes, that would be almost as rediculous as placing random jedi in charge of armies and armadas because they have Teh Force.

And are roundly respected, highly influential, and the army in question has specifically been trained to expect to be under the command of jedi knights, serving the Republic.

Never mind that the whole thing was a vehicle for Order 66.

The Jedi are badasses or overrated pushovers, depending on what the story calls for.

We try to rationalize it now, but it seems like we've never ever seen competent Jedi "in their prime," except maybe Obi-Wan and Qui Gon during their "extended negotiations" in Episode I, yet now we're supposed to believe that even then the "shroud of the Dark Side" was upon them, and it wasn't until back during Obi-Wan's youth that they were at "full power" and their numbers hadn't begun to really dwindle.