How rare is usable force abilities?

[Xon]

Given the vast population of the Old Republic, how are would noticable force abilities be?

From what we saw in the Prequels, I would say there would be a few thousand Jedi max. The would of course be a fraction that have the abilities but didnt get trained by the Jedi.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

As of AOTC there are 10,000 Jedi. Although I'd gues that there are thousands, maybe millions of other people in the galaxy with unnocticed/minor Force abilities too, those are the numbers.

[Illuminatus Primus]

In other words, extremely rare.

[Mr Bean]

Force Affinity is maybe one in five million

Full blown Force ability is one in five billion(Just based on the fact you typical system produces in 50 years... about 4 Jedi)

[Sea Skimmer]

10,000 out of a Republic of quintillions, not very common. And I'd suspect the blood test early in life is a common hospital thing, rather then something only Jedi do. Otherwise Qi Gon's statement wouldn't make a lot of sense, since of course 10,000 Jedi can't visit quadrillions of babies a year, let alone give them blood tests or even reach all the planets.

[Joe]

Well, if the EU is any indication, where just about every minor character introduced eventually turns out to be a Force-sensitive (particularly silly with Isolder and Danni Quee), then force sensitivity may not be as uncommon as we've imagined.

[Lord Pounder]

IF he had have been born in the Republic he could have been identified much earlier

This seems to suggest that every hospital performs some kind of Midiclorean count at some point in the early stages.

[Utsanomiko]

I read somewhere 9probably a summary of a novelization quote) that there were only 10,000 Jedi around TPM due to the council's increasingly strict conditions for training Jedi. They were so paranoid that Jedi apprentices would turn to the darkside or just give up totally that they lowered the age to almost infancy of whom they would train.

[Stormbringer]

Well, if the EU is any indication, where just about every minor character introduced eventually turns out to be a Force-sensitive (particularly silly with Isolder and Danni Quee), then force sensitivity may not be as uncommon as we've imagined.

True but how many of them actually have useable abilities? Sure you might get a lot of them but what about real full on force ability?

[Silver]

Well, if the EU is any indication, where just about every minor character introduced eventually turns out to be a Force-sensitive (particularly silly with Isolder and Danni Quee), then force sensitivity may not be as uncommon as we've imagined.

Actually this doesn't really surprise me. Given that almost all the Jedi were slaughtered before ANH this might be the Force "filling up the gap", so to speak. Imagine if you will, scooping a glassful of water from a bucket. When you took that water out, it left a void behind that the rest of the water in the bucket quickly filled up. I think that's why there seems to be much more Force sensitive people in the EU.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Actually this doesn't really surprise me. Given that almost all the Jedi were slaughtered before ANH this might be the Force "filling up the gap", so to speak. Imagine if you will, scooping a glassful of water from a bucket. When you took that water out, it left a void behind that the rest of the water in the bucket quickly filled up. I think that's why there seems to be much more Force sensitive people in the EU.

[Spock]Fascinating...[/Spock]

[Joe]

Well, if the EU is any indication, where just about every minor character introduced eventually turns out to be a Force-sensitive (particularly silly with Isolder and Danni Quee), then force sensitivity may not be as uncommon as we've imagined.

Actually this doesn't really surprise me. Given that almost all the Jedi were slaughtered before ANH this might be the Force "filling up the gap", so to speak. Imagine if you will, scooping a glassful of water from a bucket. When you took that water out, it left a void behind that the rest of the water in the bucket quickly filled up. I think that's why there seems to be much more Force sensitive people in the EU.

Yeah, I totally agree with that; I also believe this is why Force-sensitives cannot be cloned in great capacities; eventually, the Force will take action to keep itself from being spread too thin.

[Joe]

Well, if the EU is any indication, where just about every minor character introduced eventually turns out to be a Force-sensitive (particularly silly with Isolder and Danni Quee), then force sensitivity may not be as uncommon as we've imagined.

True but how many of them actually have useable abilities? Sure you might get a lot of them but what about real full on force ability?

Isolder does not (he didn't even realize he had any force affinity until Luke told him), and while Danni Quee does have some talent for force-enhanced perception, she doesn't appear to be on the same level as the Jedi.

I think that the small numbers of the OR Jedi can be explained by two things.

1) The OR Jedi take only the most talented force users, period. Weaker force users would simply be a waste of time and resources to train.

2) It does not appear that the Jedi Order forces parents to relinquish their children to them for training. Obi-Wan we know was given voluntarily, and Anakin was given a choice by Qui-Gon. This further thins out the number of the Jedi, since most parents would not be readily willing to give up their children.

[Kerneth]

In one of the prequel-era novels it mentions that a lot of people were accepted as Jedi apprentices then shuffled off into some civil-service type role if it was decided that they didn't have the skills/temperament to be Jedi.

Not sure I can find where I saw that, but I'll look. Unfortunately, no ratios were given that I can recall.

[Darth Yoshi]

Well, if the EU is any indication, where just about every minor character introduced eventually turns out to be a Force-sensitive (particularly silly with Isolder and Danni Quee), then force sensitivity may not be as uncommon as we've imagined.

Actually this doesn't really surprise me. Given that almost all the Jedi were slaughtered before ANH this might be the Force "filling up the gap", so to speak. Imagine if you will, scooping a glassful of water from a bucket. When you took that water out, it left a void behind that the rest of the water in the bucket quickly filled up. I think that's why there seems to be much more Force sensitive people in the EU.

Yeah, I totally agree with that; I also believe this is why Force-sensitives cannot be cloned in great capacities; eventually, the Force will take action to keep itself from being spread too thin.

That may also explain the ridiculous powers shown by Force adepts in the EU.

[Lord Pounder]

In one of the prequel-era novels it mentions that a lot of people were accepted as Jedi apprentices then shuffled off into some civil-service type role if it was decided that they didn't have the skills/temperament to be Jedi.

Not sure I can find where I saw that, but I'll look. Unfortunately, no ratios were given that I can recall.

Wouldn't have been Shadow Hunter by any chance?

[SCI-Fi_Freak]

I think it was the Jedi Apprentice series, I remember Obi-Wan being blamed for going on an angry rampage and beating the hell out of one of the other apprentices, he is almost shipped off to work on a far off planet as a civil worker like you said. But yeah, one little quote I would like to rage about in Enemy Lines I: "Kyp knew he was stronger than Luke. And he was."

Explain to me how Kyp Durron who as far as we know isn't a child of an Jedi could be stronger than the son of the Choosen One? Doesn't make much sense to me.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I think it was the Jedi Apprentice series, I remember Obi-Wan being blamed for going on an angry rampage and beating the hell out of one of the other apprentices, he is almost shipped off to work on a far off planet as a civil worker like you said.

Remember Yoda's OT speeches?

There are probably a lot of potential apprentices that are turned down for being "too emotional," "too angry," and since we're talking about the oppressive and orthodox Prequel Era Jedi Order "thinking too freely."

The Jedi Council more easily would control a smaller group of better indoctrinated and more obidient Jedi.

Callista's Master and Corran's Grandfather ignored several of the post-Ruusan Reformation rules of the Jedi Order as it was.

But yeah, one little quote I would like to rage about in Enemy Lines I: "Kyp knew he was stronger than Luke. And he was."

Explain to me how Kyp Durron who as far as we know isn't a child of an Jedi could be stronger than the son of the Choosen One? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Kyp "thinks" he is more powerful than Luke Skywalker. Aaron Allston made this very emphasized in emails following his Enemy Lines duology.

Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever.

Anakin Skywalker as Darth Vader explicitly says several times in Shadows of the Empire that Luke has more raw potential than he does/did.

Where have we heard that the One Who Will Bring Balance MUST be the most powerful?

Qui-Gon felt the midichlorian count was so high he might be the Chosen One, but still was not convinced until after the Pod Race after he had been with Anakin for sometime. The Jedi Council was not completely convinced he was even after the trials.

Count Dooku never believed it, even after he left the order. The Revised Core Rulebook explains that Dooku still thinks he's serving the interests of the universe as a whole, that he thinks he has control of the both the Light and Dark Sides of the Force, and that he thinks he might be the Chosen One.

As we can see extremely experienced Jedi Masters did not feel raw potential alone was an indicator all by itself of the Chosen One. Therefore we should not conclude the Chosen One MUST be the most powerful Force User in existance. Anakin does appear to be the most powerful Force User known in the Prequel Era, but Anakin himself DIRECTLY states that Luke is more powerful than he is. That statement is specific and unambigious.

Aaron Allston explicitly specified that Kyp only thinks he's more powerful than Luke Skywalker. The tests Luke used in Jedi Search were indicators, no more. Anything can be inaccurate.

Given the opinion of the Chosen One himself, the explicitness of Allston's comment that Kyp ONLY THINKS he's more powerful, and Luke's demonstrated power and achievements in his life, I have only one conclusion.

Luke Skywalker is more powerful than any other Force User ever seen in the Overall Continuity of Star Wars, period.

Well, if the EU is any indication, where just about every minor character introduced eventually turns out to be a Force-sensitive (particularly silly with Isolder and Danni Quee), then force sensitivity may not be as uncommon as we've imagined.

Sometimes I wonder if people actually read the books.

Danni Quee is not demonstrated to have Jedi-neccessary Force potential.

Isolder is SPECIFICALLY STATED to have NO Force potential whatsoever.

Luke was just practicing his philosophical speeches and protelyzation ahead of time for when he trained people who had the potential to be a Dark Jedi.

That may also explain the ridiculous powers shown by Force adepts in the EU.

Which would those be?

[Kerneth]

Luke collapsed from exhaustion after pushing a dovin basal singularity from a Vong ground crawler (Rakamat or something else?) into the creature to destroy it. Dark Tide I, Onslaught.

Kyp was tired, but still able to fly a starfighter back to its hanger, after pushing the dovin basal singularity from a matalok cruiser in the same way (Rebel Dream). I'm assuming that the dovin basals are equal in strength, and not that the matalok would have MORE powerful dovin basals (which honestly makes more sense to me, but I can't prove it). This demonstrates that Kyp has more sheer power than Luke does...though I don't think he has the same level of CONTROL over the Force.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Luke collapsed from exhaustion after pushing a dovin basal singularity from a Vong ground crawler (Rakamat or something else?) into the creature to destroy it. Dark Tide I, Onslaught.

Kyp was tired, but still able to fly a starfighter back to its hanger, after pushing the dovin basal singularity from a matalok cruiser in the same way (Rebel Dream). I'm assuming that the dovin basals are equal in strength, and not that the matalok would have MORE powerful dovin basals (which honestly makes more sense to me, but I can't prove it). This demonstrates that Kyp has more sheer power than Luke does...though I don't think he has the same level of CONTROL over the Force.

Doesn't matter. He had the benefit of Luke teaching him the technique.

Luke did it from scratch on the spot.

No where does it say explicitly Kyp's more powerful than Luke, except when Kyp says it. And this is invalidated by Allston's comment.

Vader EXPLICITLY says Luke is more powerful.

Thus, Luke is more powerful. It isn't hard to understand.

[Joe]

Sometimes I wonder if people actually read the books.
Danni Quee is not demonstrated to have Jedi-neccessary Force potential.
Isolder is SPECIFICALLY STATED to have NO Force potential whatsoever.
Luke was just practicing his philosophical speeches and protelyzation ahead of time for when he trained people who had the potential to be a Dark Jedi.

Ah, so the EU others pulled another retcon with Isolder.

In my defense, I never said Danni Quee was a strong force-sensitive, and the only powers she has demonstrated thus far are weak telepathic communication with other Force users (Miko Reglia, Vector Prime) and the ability to detect voids in the force (Balance Point, I think, although I haven't read those early NJO books for quite some time now).

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sometimes I wonder if people actually read the books.
Danni Quee is not demonstrated to have Jedi-neccessary Force potential.
Isolder is SPECIFICALLY STATED to have NO Force potential whatsoever.
Luke was just practicing his philosophical speeches and protelyzation ahead of time for when he trained people who had the potential to be a Dark Jedi.

Ah, so the EU others pulled another retcon with Isolder.

Wrong.

Luke IN THE BOOK says he's just practicing on Isolder before he has to train real Force sensitives.

Don't blame the EU for this.

[Kerneth]

But yeah, one little quote I would like to rage about in Enemy Lines I: "Kyp knew he was stronger than Luke. And he was."

Explain to me how Kyp Durron who as far as we know isn't a child of an Jedi could be stronger than the son of the Choosen One? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Kyp "thinks" he is more powerful than Luke Skywalker. Aaron Allston made this very emphasized in emails following his Enemy Lines duology.

Luke is the most powerful Jedi ever.

Anakin Skywalker as Darth Vader explicitly says several times in Shadows of the Empire that Luke has more raw potential than he does/did.

Where have we heard that the One Who Will Bring Balance MUST be the most powerful?

Qui-Gon felt the midichlorian count was so high he might be the Chosen One, but still was not convinced until after the Pod Race after he had been with Anakin for sometime. The Jedi Council was not completely convinced he was even after the trials.

Count Dooku never believed it, even after he left the order. The Revised Core Rulebook explains that Dooku still thinks he's serving the interests of the universe as a whole, that he thinks he has control of the both the Light and Dark Sides of the Force, and that he thinks he might be the Chosen One.

As we can see extremely experienced Jedi Masters did not feel raw potential alone was an indicator all by itself of the Chosen One. Therefore we should not conclude the Chosen One MUST be the most powerful Force User in existance. Anakin does appear to be the most powerful Force User known in the Prequel Era, but Anakin himself DIRECTLY states that Luke is more powerful than he is. That statement is specific and unambigious.

Aaron Allston explicitly specified that Kyp only thinks he's more powerful than Luke Skywalker. The tests Luke used in Jedi Search were indicators, no more. Anything can be inaccurate.

Given the opinion of the Chosen One himself, the explicitness of Allston's comment that Kyp ONLY THINKS he's more powerful, and Luke's demonstrated power and achievements in his life, I have only one conclusion.

Luke Skywalker is more powerful than any other Force User ever seen in the Overall Continuity of Star Wars, period.

Just because Vader says "Luke's more powerful than I am" doesn't mean that Luke's more powerful than Kyp. First, you're saying that the Chosen One must be the most powerful Force user, and Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One. Then you're saying that the Chosen One says that Luke is more powerful than he is. But if in order to be the Chosen One you must be the most powerful, doesn't that mean, by your own argument, that Anakin is *not* the Chosen One because he's weaker than Luke?

My points:
1) Anakin Skywalker, theoretically the one who will bring balance to the Force, is the most powerful Jedi in the Old Republic.
2) Anakin Skywalker turned Darth Vader says that Luke, his son, is more powerful than Anakin himself is. Does this mean Luke is now the one who is chosen to bring balance to the Force instead of Anakin?
3) Luke Skywalker states that Kyp Durron has the most Force potential he's ever encountered, possibly even greater than his own.
4) Kyp Durron believes himself to possess more raw power than Luke Skywalker, and demonstrates on one occasion better pure strength in the Force. Ergo, Kyp possesses more raw power.

Luke has, indeed, accomplished much more than Kyp has in the EU. But that doesn't necessarily prove that he's stronger in the Force, it proves that he's older and has had more experience. And I agreed that Luke was probably more skilled than Kyp, even if he can't quite match him for raw power.

Now, I don't care one way or another which of them is the more powerful, I believe Luke Skywalker to be far and away the most EFFECTIVE Force user in the Star Wars continuity. But if you want to prove he's stronger than Kyp, you need to provide better evidence than "The strongest Force user prior to Luke says that Luke is more powerful than himself, therefore, Luke is more powerful than Kyp" because that argument doesn't logically process.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Just because Vader says "Luke's more powerful than I am" doesn't mean that Luke's more powerful than Kyp. First, you're saying that the Chosen One must be the most powerful Force user, and Anakin Skywalker was the Chosen One. Then you're saying that the Chosen One says that Luke is more powerful than he is. But if in order to be the Chosen One you must be the most powerful, doesn't that mean, by your own argument, that Anakin is *not* the Chosen One because he's weaker than Luke?

No you didn't read.

I said that "extreme Force Sensitivity" was not a prerequisite alone for the Jedi Masters of the PT era to define the Chosen One, thus, the Chosen One does not neccessarily need to be the most powerful.

1) Anakin Skywalker, theoretically the one who will bring balance to the Force, is the most powerful Jedi in the Old Republic.

In the Old Republic, yes.

2) Anakin Skywalker turned Darth Vader says that Luke, his son, is more powerful than Anakin himself is. Does this mean Luke is now the one who is chosen to bring balance to the Force instead of Anakin?

No because where in "the One who will bring balance to the Force" does it mention Force potential?

Anakin's record midichlorian count suggests extreme Force sensitivity, but this alone was no enough to make Qui-Gon believe he was the Chosen One.

He was not convinced until after spending several days with Anakin including the winning of the Boonta Eve race.

3) Luke Skywalker states that Kyp Durron has the most Force potential he's ever encountered, possibly even greater than his own.

Luke Skywalker has been paralyzed by his fear of falling to the Dark Side as well as wondering how much of his abilities he should use. Luke's testing methods are neither scientific nor precise by his own admission.

4) Kyp Durron believes himself to possess more raw power than Luke Skywalker, and demonstrates on one occasion better pure strength in the Force. Ergo, Kyp possesses more raw power.

The author who wrote Kyp Durron bragging about his own power specifically said that Kyp was not as powerful, only he liked to think that about himself.

Kyp was taught a brand new Force technique by the man who invented it, and performed it better then the initial try later on. Why does this suprise you?

Luke has, indeed, accomplished much more than Kyp has in the EU. But that doesn't necessarily prove that he's stronger in the Force,

The fact the Chosen One specifically says so and the fact Palpatine could feel Skywalker's growth since Endor but never noticed Kyp Durron's ersatz training by Vima on Kessel means nothing?

it proves that he's older and has had more experience. And I agreed that Luke was probably more skilled than Kyp, even if he can't quite match him for raw power.

What has Kyp done in raw power more than Luke? The black hole trick? Luke invented that on the spot and taught it to Kyp, who had the ability to both prepare and know how to do it before hand when he tried it.

Which do you think is harder? Doing something from scratch or doing it after being taught to and having the oppurtunity to try it?

Now, I don't care one way or another which of them is the more powerful, I believe Luke Skywalker to be far and away the most EFFECTIVE Force user in the Star Wars continuity.

Agreed.

But if you want to prove he's stronger than Kyp, you need to provide better evidence than "The strongest Force user prior to Luke says that Luke is more powerful than himself, therefore, Luke is more powerful than Kyp" because that argument doesn't logically process.

Palpatine obsession with Skywalker's potential and power from Endor until they met again on Byss, Palpatine's ability to feel through the Force Skywalker's growth and not feel Kyp's at all, and the authors of Kyp specifically stating Kyp only thinks he's more powerful means nothing to you?

Ok, that's your opinion.

[Kerneth]

Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream, p. 238

"Luke Skywalker had done this once before, a couple of years ago. He'd mentioned it to the other Jedi. No one else had tried it because it had exhausted Luke to the point of collapse, and Jedi were seldom in a position to survive a technique that exhausted them so completely."

"...he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker. He'd known that almost since they'd met--that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he had been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did."

Where does Allston say that Kyp just *thinks* he's stronger than Luke? Kyp seems extremely confident of that fact here, and he doesn't say Luke "trained" them in the technique, he says Luke had "mentioned" it to the other Jedi. There's a big difference between being "trained" in a technique and remembering that it was mentioned as "something you can do in a real asshole-puckering emergency when you have no better options."