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Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 03:26pm
by DrMckay
Back before the prequels were released, it seemed like the Jedi were just regular folks as far as relationships went. Luke ended up getting married, as did Leia, and Corran Horn's biological grandfather, Nejaa Halcyon married adn had children in the Clone Wars Era, when it was supposedly forbidden by the Jedi Order.

What gives? Was there a retconning to go along with the movies, or is there a different set of rules for different jedi? The "No attachments" line always struck me as rather odd. Shouldn't the galactic protectors of peace and justice have the option of choosing to marry and begin a family? Seems like it would foster more force-sensitives, as well as give the Jedi a personal investment to actively protect.

Can someone please explain this to me?

Thank you.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 03:34pm
by Jaevric
Well, I, Jedi notes that Jedi from the Corellian system tended to be a bit "different."

Isn't there a prequel-era EU novel where Nejaa Halcyon and Anakin Skywalker are interacting, and Nejaa admits or is thinking about how he is secretly married? I never really bought any of the prequel EU novels and it's been a while since I got one from the library.

I'm pretty sure the retcon is that Nejaa wasn't supposed to be married but did it anyway, the married Cerean Jedi Master was given a special dispensation due to population issues on his homeworld, and the New Jedi Order just doesn't have all of the traditions of the old Jedi Order. Hopefully Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't waste valuable training time on trying to foist every single tradition of the old Order on Luke, especially after how well those traditions worked out in the long run--which is to say, not very.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 03:40pm
by Darth Fanboy
DrMckay wrote:Back before the prequels were released, it seemed like the Jedi were just regular folks as far as relationships went. Luke ended up getting married, as did Leia, and Corran Horn's biological grandfather, Nejaa Halcyon married adn had children in the Clone Wars Era, when it was supposedly forbidden by the Jedi Order.
Nejaa Halcyon was one of the very few Jedi of his era that was given any sort of backstory. His background in some ways improves his character as he was written in Jedi Trial because he did not conform to Jedi standards. I cannot think of any other OR Jedi that were ever mentioned as being married. Leia was married before she became a Jedi, and Luke Skywalker had little to no idea of how the Old Jedi Order was ran.
What gives? Was there a retconning to go along with the movies, or is there a different set of rules for different jedi?
Halcyon's marriage might be considered a retcon, seeing as how it became a hidden secret just like Anakin and Padme's marriage.
The "No attachments" line always struck me as rather odd. Shouldn't the galactic protectors of peace and justice have the option of choosing to marry and begin a family?
You saw what happened to Anakin when his mother died and what happened to him when he gave into the dark side to try and protect Padme right? That is exactly what the Jedi were trying to avoid. Some Jedi, although very few, were permitted to marry though. Ki Adi Mundi was allowed because of the very low Cerean birthrate.
Seems like it would foster more force-sensitives, as well as give the Jedi a personal investment to actively protect.
But personal investments and multiple generations of Jedi bloodlines were not what the order wanted, because they believed that in order to serve the Force, they could have no attachments to prevent them from doing so. If a Jedi had a son that was kidnapped by some terrorist, and the price for letting the child go was something like letting the bad guy blow up a spaceship full of people, it could only end very badly. No families and no spouses give Jedi fewer opportunities to be tempted into falling towards the Dark Side.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 03:41pm
by Darth Fanboy
Jaevric wrote: Isn't there a prequel-era EU novel where Nejaa Halcyon and Anakin Skywalker are interacting, and Nejaa admits or is thinking about how he is secretly married? I never really bought any of the prequel EU novels and it's been a while since I got one from the library.
You're thinking of Jedi Trial, which was a decent book overall and worth picking up paperback or checking out from a friend or library at least.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 03:51pm
by Captain Seafort
Darth Fanboy wrote:Luke Skywalker had little to no idea of how the Old Jedi Order was ran.
He knew about the "no attachments" rule though - as a retcon, obviously, but it was a minor plot point in "Survivor's Quest". His conclusion was that the OJO's rules didn't apply to the NJO, partially because of the balance of the Force thing, partially because he felt like it. Mostly the latter.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 04:19pm
by NecronLord
To be fair, the RotS book definately seems to imply that the cloistered lifestyle of the Jedi is why they were so outmanouvered by the Sith; this is why Obi Wan and Yoda don't immediately take the twins and start training - they've come to believe that having a real, non-jedi life can actually help fight the Sith.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 04:29pm
by DrMckay
Darth Fanboy wrote: You saw what happened to Anakin when his mother died and what happened to him when he gave into the dark side to try and protect Padme right? That is exactly what the Jedi were trying to avoid. Some Jedi, although very few, were permitted to marry though. Ki Adi Mundi was allowed because of the very low Cerean birthrate.
Wasn't Anakin a bit screwey and maladjusted? (Not to mention an idiot for trusting Palpatine's amorphous promises.) Seems like the Jedi would have more to live for, and a greater personal investment in the government they are trying to protect if they are allowed to raise families.

The "Old Jedi" code spurns attachment because of the negative emotions of the Dark Side, but offers little in turn to replace it. In my opinion, that is a flawed system. Also, taking younglings to the temple and removing them from their families? Smacks of brainwashing. How are they supposed to protect a society of parents and offspring if they have no idea what being raised by a parent is like? Does that not further distance them from the "Ordinary" untalented people and put them on a higher pedestal? Would that cause them to see themselves as distinct and greater, leading to hubris and the dark side?

I'll buy taking in abandoned or abused younglings, but ripping them from their family and not being allowed to see them again does not seem like it would promote healthy, well-adjusted people.

As to the Halcyon Marriage thing, has it been retconned into a secret marriage? What about The Jedi cooperation with CorSec?

(Actually, that would make an interesting book. Pre-clone wars era, Rostek Horn and Nejaa halcyon solve crimes on Corillea. Too few recent SW books have dealt with "regular guys" so to speak. I miss Allston's Wraith Squadron.)

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 05:15pm
by Havok
Anakin seemed like an awesome kid who had an excellent grasp of right and wrong and not screwy or maladjusted at all, and to call him an idiot for being duped, starting at age 10, by the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord to ever live, not to mention a master manipulator on a galaxy wide scale that has yet to be equaled, is ridiculous.

The problem with love and attachment is that it can easily turn to hatred and possessiveness as we have seen. Even with this, the old Jedi had exceptions to their own rules. IIRC Plo Kloon had a wife and family. I also don't think that if a Jedi was found out to have gotten married, that the order would expel them as Obi-Wan threatens Anakin with in AOTC. And obviously Count Dooku kept his status and attachment with his family even though he was a Jedi.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 06:03pm
by Rawtooth
And DrMckay that is one of the themes of the prequels. The Old Jedi Order is so flawed and mired in tradition the only way for it to grow is to be burnt down to the ground and for Luke to start all over again. The novelization of RotS has Yoda realize that the Order has stagnated during his fight with Palpatine.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 06:08pm
by Stark
What's the big confusion? At some point in the distant past they made the rule in response to some disaster or tragedy (or litigation) and over time as the Jedi fossilised it combined with all the other limiations to create the organisation of retarded, ignorant criminals we saw in TPM.

At one point, even with most of the same rules etc, the Jedi Order was probably active, vibrant and creative. Turns out organisations become conservative and blinkered over time without constant reform? WHO KNEW. This isn't rocket science, and the rule itself isn't intrinsically bad.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 07:20pm
by DrMckay
I was actually a bit curious as to when Lucas made that decision. What's his take on the EU in general?

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 07:39pm
by Kurgan
*mutters poorly thought out joke about ritual castration with lightsaber hazings*

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-15 07:41pm
by Havok
He seems mostly impartial to the EU aside from lifting a name or two here and there and liking some of the artwork and designs. As to his decision on the Jedi, it seems like as he got older and less cynical, they morphed from samurai types to monk types as of TPM.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 01:41am
by Alien-Carrot
Yoda: No attachments, must you have.

Youngling: Why?

Yoda: Attachments lead to the dark side.

Youngling: I mean, why should I protect people? If I have no attachments, then I have no reason to protect people that mean absolutely nothing to me. For that matter, why should I care about falling to the dark side, unless I'm attached to the light side? Why should I adhere to the jedi code? That just another attachment.

Yoda: Missing the point, you are.

Youngling: I'm bored, I think I'll go juggle lightsabres. See you later toadface.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 01:52am
by Elfdart
DrMckay wrote:I was actually a bit curious as to when Lucas made that decision. What's his take on the EU in general?
I think it's a corner Lucas painted himself into with ROTJ. Luke and Leia can use the Force because it runs in the family as Luke said in ROTJ. Yoda says that he and Luke are the last Jedi, and it's already been established that the Empire killed the others off. If Jedi can have families, then that's not possible since there would be so many that the Empire would have a hard time so much as making a dent in their numbers, let alone reducing them to two or three.

The celibacy and the Force as a genetic trait are necessary for the story to make sense.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 02:33am
by Havok
Alien-Carrot wrote:Yoda: No attachments, must you have.

Youngling: Why?

Yoda: Attachments lead to the dark side.

Youngling: I mean, why should I protect people? If I have no attachments, then I have no reason to protect people that mean absolutely nothing to me. For that matter, why should I care about falling to the dark side, unless I'm attached to the light side? Why should I adhere to the jedi code? That just another attachment.

Yoda: Missing the point, you are.

Youngling: I'm bored, I think I'll go juggle lightsabres. See you later toadface.
Have you seen AOTC? Anakin explains how it works to Padme, and it makes fine sense. It is more about self control than anything.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 02:35am
by Havok
Elfdart wrote:
DrMckay wrote:I was actually a bit curious as to when Lucas made that decision. What's his take on the EU in general?
I think it's a corner Lucas painted himself into with ROTJ. Luke and Leia can use the Force because it runs in the family as Luke said in ROTJ. Yoda says that he and Luke are the last Jedi, and it's already been established that the Empire killed the others off. If Jedi can have families, then that's not possible since there would be so many that the Empire would have a hard time so much as making a dent in their numbers, let alone reducing them to two or three.

The celibacy and the Force as a genetic trait are necessary for the story to make sense.
Possibly a self imposed brain bug on Lucas's part. Just because the Force runs strong in the Skywalker family, it must run strong in all families that have a Force sensitive? Yeah. I mean, wouldn't the Jedi have at some point just bred Jedi children or encouraged mating if that was true? Or if it was indeed just genetic, why not just make an army of Jedi Clones that were exactly like the clones, except that they adhered to the Jedi Code, or even make completely individual children, just with Force sensativity and train them as they see fit, to replenish and keep numbers up.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 02:50am
by Sarevok
havokeff wrote: Possibly a self imposed brain bug on Lucas's part. Just because the Force runs strong in the Skywalker family, it must run strong in all families that have a Force sensitive? Yeah. I mean, wouldn't the Jedi have at some point just bred Jedi children or encouraged mating if that was true? Or if it was indeed just genetic, why not just make an army of Jedi Clones that were exactly like the clones, except that they adhered to the Jedi Code, or even make completely individual children, just with Force sensativity and train them as they see fit, to replenish and keep numbers up.
Maybe the Jedi do exactly that. In times of conflict like in the Kotor era Jedi can marry iirc. They can replenish their losses that way. But after some point they stop to prevent exceeding an upper limit.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 04:20am
by Darth Hoth
DrMckay wrote:I was actually a bit curious as to when Lucas made that decision. What's his take on the EU in general?
"Don't care a bit as long as it SELLZ TOO TEH KIDDIES and MAKEZ ME A SHITLAOD OFF MONEY!"?
havokeff wrote:Anakin seemed like an awesome kid who had an excellent grasp of right and wrong and not screwy or maladjusted at all, and to call him an idiot for being duped, starting at age 10, by the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord to ever live, not to mention a master manipulator on a galaxy wide scale that has yet to be equaled, is ridiculous.
Kid Anakin was not "screwy" or maladjusted as far as I could tell; for a slave, he was remarkably healthy. But a decade later, he was growing narcissistic and obsessive-compulsive in the films and outright psychotic/schizophrenic in the EU (in particular, that comic I like to quote when he hallucinates and almost kills A'Sharad Hett). Reason? Traumatic Jedi training/separation from his mother combined with religious fundamentalism and hypocrisy (the "no marriage/passion/love" rule has seriously damaged his personality with regards to women, as evident in his unhealthy fixation on Padmé in Ep II).
The problem with love and attachment is that it can easily turn to hatred and possessiveness as we have seen. Even with this, the old Jedi had exceptions to their own rules. IIRC Plo Kloon had a wife and family. I also don't think that if a Jedi was found out to have gotten married, that the order would expel them as Obi-Wan threatens Anakin with in AOTC. And obviously Count Dooku kept his status and attachment with his family even though he was a Jedi.
"Exceptions" as in religious hypocrisy, like the Iranian fundies who have "temporary marriages" in order to see prostitutes and yet remain faithful Mussulmans; i.e., High Council feels that a situation is exceptional when one of its members should marry. One wonders why they do make these exceptions, since their justification for the "no love" rule ("all emotion leads to teh Dark Side!") would not be more or less applicable to a High Council Master than anyone else. More privately, the "no love" rule may be disregarded by quite a lot of major characters in the Order, but there is every indication that the rules are enforced when such is officially revealed (though the full punishment may not always be excommunication, as shown by the case of Ranik Solusar). This is merely evidence that, as in the real world, fundamentalism leads to hypocrisy.

As for Dooku, the EU sources (for example, The Essential Guide to the Force) make it quite clear that he was, in fact, completely separated from his family and was as a stranger to them when he returned to "reclaim" his title. Like a typical Youngling, Dooku was conscripted (direct quote) and kept isolated from the outside world as he grew up. He was, however, somewhat older than the norm when discovered.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 04:35am
by Darth Hoth
havokeff wrote:
Alien-Carrot wrote:Yoda: No attachments, must you have.

Youngling: Why?

Yoda: Attachments lead to the dark side.

Youngling: I mean, why should I protect people? If I have no attachments, then I have no reason to protect people that mean absolutely nothing to me. For that matter, why should I care about falling to the dark side, unless I'm attached to the light side? Why should I adhere to the jedi code? That just another attachment.

Yoda: Missing the point, you are.

Youngling: I'm bored, I think I'll go juggle lightsabres. See you later toadface.
Have you seen AOTC? Anakin explains how it works to Padme, and it makes fine sense. It is more about self control than anything.
Yeah . . . Jedi are supposed to be completely loyal to the Order and have no attachments to anyone or anything outside it or above it, as good Knights Templar. For this, raising children from birth in complete isolation is the way to go; the Jedi saw it, just like the Khmer Rouge.

AOTC bullshit about "compassion" aside. "Desire" is forbidden? "Attachment" is forbidden? Congratulations, then you remove the two emotions that are a human's driving force (personal relationships and the reproductive drive). This is exactly what fundies do, namely putting unreasonable (and religiously motivated) expectations on human beings and then making them feel guilty when they fail to uphold them while at the same time offering "comfort" and socialising the individual into the group. It is just another mechanism to control people. You cannot suppress these emotions entirely, you only produce severely disturbed individuals when you try, as Anakin's case proved. The Jedi are fundie-fanatics. They think a mother's love of her child is "unhealthy attachment" (ref Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader).

The philosophy does not make sense and is not "merely a matter of self-control."

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 05:34am
by Havok
Darth Hoth wrote:
havokeff wrote:Anakin seemed like an awesome kid who had an excellent grasp of right and wrong and not screwy or maladjusted at all, and to call him an idiot for being duped, starting at age 10, by the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord to ever live, not to mention a master manipulator on a galaxy wide scale that has yet to be equaled, is ridiculous.
Kid Anakin was not "screwy" or maladjusted as far as I could tell; for a slave, he was remarkably healthy. But a decade later, he was growing narcissistic and obsessive-compulsive in the films and outright psychotic/schizophrenic in the EU (in particular, that comic I like to quote when he hallucinates and almost kills A'Sharad Hett). Reason? Traumatic Jedi training/separation from his mother combined with religious fundamentalism and hypocrisy (the "no marriage/passion/love" rule has seriously damaged his personality with regards to women, as evident in his unhealthy fixation on Padmé in Ep II).
Yeah sorry, but unless you are going to trot out all the other examples of psychotic Jedi children that the EVIL Jedi training causes, I'm going to stick with the facts that we have: The council felt he was too old to be properly trained and that Palpatine was manipulating him from day one, and chalk up Anakin as a unique case.
And I don't find Anakin's love for Padme to be an "unhealthy fixation". Yes he is socially awkward, but so are half the posters on this board. I mean a 19 year old that is awkward towards girls and expresses himself in an almost painful to watch manner? :shock: :roll:
It is not something you can just chalk up to "religious fundamentalism and hypocrisy" because it suits your theory, when that is standard behavior for about every teenager ever.
The problem with love and attachment is that it can easily turn to hatred and possessiveness as we have seen. Even with this, the old Jedi had exceptions to their own rules. IIRC Plo Kloon had a wife and family. I also don't think that if a Jedi was found out to have gotten married, that the order would expel them as Obi-Wan threatens Anakin with in AOTC. And obviously Count Dooku kept his status and attachment with his family even though he was a Jedi.
"Exceptions" as in religious hypocrisy, like the Iranian fundies who have "temporary marriages" in order to see prostitutes and yet remain faithful Mussulmans; i.e., High Council feels that a situation is exceptional when one of its members should marry. One wonders why they do make these exceptions, since their justification for the "no love" rule ("all emotion leads to teh Dark Side!") would not be more or less applicable to a High Council Master than anyone else. More privately, the "no love" rule may be disregarded by quite a lot of major characters in the Order, but there is every indication that the rules are enforced when such is officially revealed (though the full punishment may not always be excommunication, as shown by the case of Ranik Solusar). This is merely evidence that, as in the real world, fundamentalism leads to hypocrisy.
Ok that is retarded. In the case of Ki-Adi-Mundi, it was to help his species pro create and had nothing to do with love per se, but with helping out his species, which actually falls within what Jedi is supposed to do. In Plo Koon's case, IIRC, his innate abilities, along with other Kel Dor, of determining right and wrong in a very black and white way is what allowed him, and his family, which has a history of Jedi, to marry, as they didn't succumb emotionally to the trappings of the Dark Side as easily as a human or other species would. Neither of those cases is hypocrisy.
And how do you figure that that rule should apply more to a fully trained Jedi Master and High Council member over a Padawan in training that is basically a ball of emotions and hormones that is still learning what it means and takes to be a Jedi. I'm all for practice what you preach, but if Yoda wanted to get married, for valid reason X, then that is fine. Your comparison to the Iranians doesn't cut it, as the Jedi aren't circumventing the rules to get nookie on the side. And their rules are not arbitrarily in place, but there to stop young Padawans and Knights from falling to the Dark Side and hurting or killing people.
As for Dooku, the EU sources (for example, The Essential Guide to the Force) make it quite clear that he was, in fact, completely separated from his family and was as a stranger to them when he returned to "reclaim" his title. Like a typical Youngling, Dooku was conscripted (direct quote) and kept isolated from the outside world as he grew up. He was, however, somewhat older than the norm when discovered.
OK. He still kept his status and his family attachments or else he wouldn't have been able to go back and "reclaim" his title. "Hi. You haven't seen me in 50 years. Can I be Count and have all the money please." Yeah, probably not happening without some sort of attachment.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 06:06am
by Darth Fanboy
I have a problem in this case in equating the Jedi with modern day fundamentalists, as the Dark Side of the Force is actually a very tangible thing and corruption is not something easily walked away from. There is a big difference between a regular being getting upset and being overcome with emotion, and a Jedi in the same situation. A regular being does not have the same vulnerability, nor does that being have the ability to kill someone with a thought or a wave of the hand when they are pissed off.

Also, the Jedi were probably wary of multiple generations of Jedi coming from a bloodline as they probably wanted to avoid looking like a dynasty to the public at large. The Jedi had a lot of power and influence they had been entrusted with, and they weren't completely clueless as to how they were percieved by the public.

In the case of Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala, Anakin Skywalker developed the same attachment any husband would for his wife. With the fate of the galaxy on the line Anakin chose his wife over what needed to be done for the greater good. There were other reasons for Anakin to keep his marriage a secret besides any risk to his own career, Padme's career was important to her as well, and neither of them wanted to become the focus of extreme media attention.
OK. He still kept his status and his family attachments or else he wouldn't have been able to go back and "reclaim" his title. "Hi. You haven't seen me in 50 years. Can I be Count and have all the money please." Yeah, probably not happening without some sort of attachment.
I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate with this one Hav. Dooku was approached by Sidious before he left the Jedi Order, and there is a chance that Sidious probably convinced him to go back and take up his title so that they could use the influence and wealth that went along with it to found the Separatist movement.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 06:55am
by Darth Hoth
havokeff wrote:Yeah sorry, but unless you are going to trot out all the other examples of psychotic Jedi children that the EVIL Jedi training causes, I'm going to stick with the facts that we have: The council felt he was too old to be properly trained and that Palpatine was manipulating him from day one, and chalk up Anakin as a unique case.
The others do not have that problem because they do not have families to grow attached to. The Jedi raise the children in a sterile environment where their only human contacts are other Jedi. They are brainwashed to fit a mould; in Anakin's case, this conflicted with his reasonably normal earlier upbringing, as well it should. Most Jedi are probably not sociopaths (though there are disturbing cases, like the Master who let his companion be eaten by Colicoids because it was part of their culture and was held up as an example to be emulated), merely indoctrinated and unquestioning robots who do their best to suppress their "sinful" emotions.
And I don't find Anakin's love for Padme to be an "unhealthy fixation". Yes he is socially awkward, but so are half the posters on this board. I mean a 19 year old that is awkward towards girls and expresses himself in an almost painful to watch manner? :shock: :roll:
It is not something you can just chalk up to "religious fundamentalism and hypocrisy" because it suits your theory, when that is standard behavior for about every teenager ever.
You do not find it a sign of unhealthy obsession that he is, as an adult, fanatically in love with a woman he saw once, as a child, ten years ago? This is a fixation.
Ok that is retarded. In the case of Ki-Adi-Mundi, it was to help his species pro create and had nothing to do with love per se, but with helping out his species, which actually falls within what Jedi is supposed to do.
And this invalidates the "attachment and desire leads to TEH DARK SIDE, muahahah!" argument why? Does it make him any less likely to "go dark"? Furthermore, I have very strong doubts that their species is in dire need of an additional breeder to maintain a viable population; that is a totally ridiculous argument for a human-like species that apparently has a culture of its own. This sounds suspiciously like a bad excuse (which it is, in real life, on part of the writers and "Evil's" retcons) used to justify something to the public.
In Plo Koon's case, IIRC, his innate abilities, along with other Kel Dor, of determining right and wrong in a very black and white way is what allowed him, and his family, which has a history of Jedi, to marry, as they didn't succumb emotionally to the trappings of the Dark Side as easily as a human or other species would.
Source? I was unaware of any of this. Is it that videogame, "Jedi Power Battles" or whatever?
Neither of those cases is hypocrisy.
They are also far from the only ones of Jedi forming personal liaisons. I shall be back with a full list later, perhaps for my Coliseum debate on Jedi morality with Tiriol.
And how do you figure that that rule should apply more to a fully trained Jedi Master and High Council member over a Padawan in training that is basically a ball of emotions and hormones that is still learning what it means and takes to be a Jedi. I'm all for practice what you preach, but if Yoda wanted to get married, for valid reason X, then that is fine. Your comparison to the Iranians doesn't cut it, as the Jedi aren't circumventing the rules to get nookie on the side. And their rules are not arbitrarily in place, but there to stop young Padawans and Knights from falling to the Dark Side and hurting or killing people.
And how, exactly, does one become a Master? Arbitrary personal criteria, as far as I am aware, ultimately the simple recognition of the Council. The Jedi Order is run like a sect, with the High Council answering only to themselves (and to some lesser degree to the Senate, in that it controls part of their funding, but they have no responsibility before the lower-ranking members). Furthermore, what is your evidence that it does not apply to Masters? The so-called "Jedi Code" does not appear to distinguish between ranks in its edicts (and no, that little piece of poetry from way back is not the Code in its entirety, it is a quote and/or an abstraction of it; the Revised Core Rulebook establishes the Code as a larger set of writings).

It is hypocrisy; they arbitrarily decide when to acknowledge deviations from the Code and when not to.
OK. He still kept his status and his family attachments or else he wouldn't have been able to go back and "reclaim" his title. "Hi. You haven't seen me in 50 years. Can I be Count and have all the money please." Yeah, probably not happening without some sort of attachment.
It is nevertheless canon, unless you have a source to contradict it. I can be back with the specific passage, if you like; he had not seen his family before he returned to them. Jedi doctrine as of the Prequel Era forbids parents from seeing their Jedi children, as exemplified by numerous sources, and Dark Lord specifies that adult Jedi seeing their parents is rare enough as to be a matter of legend (which is not surprising, since Jedi indoctrination/training completely alienates members of the Order from their biological kin).

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 07:12am
by Darth Hoth
Darth Fanboy wrote:I have a problem in this case in equating the Jedi with modern day fundamentalists, as the Dark Side of the Force is actually a very tangible thing and corruption is not something easily walked away from. There is a big difference between a regular being getting upset and being overcome with emotion, and a Jedi in the same situation. A regular being does not have the same vulnerability, nor does that being have the ability to kill someone with a thought or a wave of the hand when they are pissed off.
And this work work excellently as an excuse if the rules actually prevented that. However, they are shown to do nothing of the sort; judging by such sources as KotOR, there was a far greater "turning" rate for the Jedi under these rules than under Luke Skywalker's more liberal teachings. I imagine pent-up frustration and endless guilt over emotions you cannot really help makes for far more viable birthing grounds for "The Darkness" than a happy, content, functioning individual with a somewhat normal private life. In the Prequel Era proper, the Jedi take things to their logical conclusion by isolating children and moulding them into perfect soldiers, but even this is apparently no guarantee against corruption (fallen Jedi from this era). I fail to see how the Jedi are justified in their oppressive fundamentalism when other solutions than theirs do not produce significantly greater numbers of Darksiders. In fact, you can very easily argue that had the Jedi not isolated Anakin like they did, he would never have turned, and other cases point towards the conclusion that emotion is exactly what has saved the galaxy and helped Jedi do their job on numerous occasions; Revan's redemption of Bastila, for instance, or Cay Qel-Droma's belated but ultimately successful redemption of his brother. Hell, Palpatine was defeated (for the first time) only because of the "attachment" between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker.
Also, the Jedi were probably wary of multiple generations of Jedi coming from a bloodline as they probably wanted to avoid looking like a dynasty to the public at large. The Jedi had a lot of power and influence they had been entrusted with, and they weren't completely clueless as to how they were percieved by the public.
But as noted in other threads, Force-sensitivity cannot be strictly genetic, or else such a superior genotype would have spread across the galaxy in much larger numbers than we see long before the formation of the Order. A few canon examples of the Force crossing the generations notwithstanding.
In the case of Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala, Anakin Skywalker developed the same attachment any husband would for his wife. With the fate of the galaxy on the line Anakin chose his wife over what needed to be done for the greater good. There were other reasons for Anakin to keep his marriage a secret besides any risk to his own career, Padme's career was important to her as well, and neither of them wanted to become the focus of extreme media attention.
See my point to hav's reply. But alright, I can grant that for the most part, their actual marriage was not unhealthy (except when he was already sliding into "Teh Darkness" for real). That still leaves the question of his various other disorders open.

Re: Can someone explain the whole Jedi marriage thing to me?

Posted: 2008-12-16 08:12am
by Darth Fanboy
Darth Hoth wrote:
And this work work excellently as an excuse if the rules actually prevented that. However, they are shown to do nothing of the sort; judging by such sources as KotOR, there was a far greater "turning" rate for the Jedi under these rules than under Luke Skywalker's more liberal teachings. I imagine pent-up frustration and endless guilt over emotions you cannot really help makes for far more viable birthing grounds for "The Darkness" than a happy, content, functioning individual with a somewhat normal private life.
The rules do prevent it. By denying the opportunity for most Jedi to have families, then the problem of attachments to said family never arises. Obi Wan Kenobi even nearly gave in to the Dark Side, almost killing the person who killed a Jedi that Obi Wan was romantically involved with.
In the Prequel Era proper, the Jedi take things to their logical conclusion by isolating children and moulding them into perfect soldiers, but even this is apparently no guarantee against corruption (fallen Jedi from this era).
They aren't molded into soldiers until the clone wars. And it is no guarantee against corruption, but the idea is to bring the force snesitive children from across the galaxy and teach them not only how to use their power, but of the responsibility that goes along with it, and guess what? Like it or not it actually worked from the time of the Ruusaan Reformations until the end of the Old Jedi Order during the Clone Wars, there were relatively few dark side adepts in those thousand years while the Sith remained hidden.
I fail to see how the Jedi are justified in their oppressive fundamentalism when other solutions than theirs do not produce significantly greater numbers of Darksiders. In fact, you can very easily argue that had the Jedi not isolated Anakin like they did, he would never have turned,
The Jedi thought they were fulfilling a prophecy with Anakin, and if Qui Gonn hadn't died then he would have never been trained. Even then Yoda did not want him trained because Anakin still had his maternal attachment, and attachment which as you recall spurred his massacre of the Sand People in Episode 2, an event which gave him his first big push towards the Dark Side.
and other cases point towards the conclusion that emotion is exactly what has saved the galaxy and helped Jedi do their job on numerous occasions; Revan's redemption of Bastila, for instance, or Cay Qel-Droma's belated but ultimately successful redemption of his brother. Hell, Palpatine was defeated (for the first time) only because of the "attachment" between Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker.
And Darth Vader fell to the Dark Side because of his attachment for PAdme Amidala, and ended up becoming one of the biggest killers in galactic history. The bond Vader developed for Luke in the OT is not the same type of attachment. Attachment as the Old Jedi Order refers to it is a selfish thing, what Vader did to kill Palpatine was selfless.
But as noted in other threads, Force-sensitivity cannot be strictly genetic, or else such a superior genotype would have spread across the galaxy in much larger numbers than we see long before the formation of the Order. A few canon examples of the Force crossing the generations notwithstanding.
And yet, we see several different Jedi bloodlines in the NJO. Luke and Leia's kids, Tyria Sarkin's kid, Corran Horn's Kid, both Jedi clones from the Dorsk line. That is what the Old Jedi Order wanted to avoid as they were being given a whole lot of power which came under scrutiny from time to time.
See my point to hav's reply. But alright, I can grant that for the most part, their actual marriage was not unhealthy (except when he was already sliding into "Teh Darkness" for real). That still leaves the question of his various other disorders open.
So he thought Amidala was beautiful when he was a kid. What is so unhealthy about that? Is he not supposed to find a beautiful woman beautiful? Should he not think of her as the kind woman who he met in Watto's junk shop?


On a side note if I am remembering right Dooku did remember life with his family on Serenno before becoming a Jedi. I remember a passage in, I think it was Dark Rendezvous, about how he remembered his mother scolding him at any sign of weakness. I don't bring that up to make any points, it's just to put the information out there.