StarDestroyer.Net BBS

While reading TFN, I came across this post:

DarthBoba on TFN wrote: And the OrBat itself is stupid. Whoever came up with such symmetrical numbers was either simply being lazy, or the GAR has no support troops of any sort.

To provide a breakdown of how a real infantry battalion is organized, I'll give a tour of my battalion, 2nd battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade, 10th Mountain Division.

We have three line infantry companies, A through C, each with an authorized strength of around 140 soldiers. That brings us to 420 approximate.

Then we have a heavy-weapons company, D, with approximately 80 soldiers. That brings us to around 500.

Next is our support company, E company-mechanics, cooks, and so on. They have around 80-100 soldiers (I don't see them much and I'm definitely not familiar with them. ) too. This brings us to around 600 soldiers.

Finally we have the Headquarters and Headquarters company, which includes things like 81mm mortars, scouts, snipers, vehicle crews, and the like. They have 230 or so, which brings us to 830 personnel assuming all the units are manned.

Compare this to the bare-bones 576 men in 4 line companies. There's no organic fire support, no recon ability, no ability to fix their vehicles beyond operator-level, no intelligence section, no operations-planning section. They missed out on a lot of categories with the Orbat and I tend to ignore it as a general rule, as whoever designed it clearly didn't bother researching how armies are actually organized.

I am completely familiar with Traviss' minimalism and special-forces wanking, but this is new to me. Then again, it's hardly surprising that an author who obsesses over t3h l337 speshul 0ps would neither know nor care much about the "tail" end of an army. What other military-related errors that do not have to do with either numbers or the proficiency of special forces have people noticed in Traviss' work?

The author of that post, if anything, is letting Traviss off lightly. Not only is her GAR a pure rifleman force, right up to Army Group and beyond, she doesn't even give it any commanders. Sure, there's the list of various clone and Jedi ranks, but they're integrated into the main TOE. In short it isn't an army - it's just a lot of sections.

There are also the relatively minor problems that the numbers she gives aren't compatable with the numbers shown on screen - her battalions are about 50 men shy of the 620-ish men in the battalions on the parade ground in AotC, and she's ignored the explicit statement in the ICS that divisions are 16K strong.

Does the fact that the CW tv series depicts a steady number of Clone Officers on board Star Destroyers have any effect on her figures as well? Wouldn't that add a significant number of clones to the total?

Darth Fanboy wrote:Does the fact that the CW tv series depicts a steady number of Clone Officers on board Star Destroyers have any effect on her figures as well? Wouldn't that add a significant number of clones to the total?

I said in the OP that this thread is for discussing military related errors that don't have to do with numbers. We've known her numbers have been too low ever since she first wrote them, that's not the point of this thread.

Something that is the point of this thread, that I'm not sure is an error or not, is the way Hard Contact depicts the clone commando's training and how the ones with slightly less than perfect ranks are eliminated. Yes, from a military standpoint it's stupid to eliminate them instead of just dropping them down into the normal ranks, but the Kaminoans seemed to treat the manufacture of the clones as producing goods rather than building a military, and they're strict about quality control.

I found Odds to be completely insulting, retarded numbers aside. The basic premise of the "story" (which was just a barely-disguised middle finger to Traviss's detractors) was that two clone commandos break in to a Separatist factory to sabotage battledroid production. And by "sabotage" I'm not talking about any hard destruction of the factory, its equipment, or its products. No, the clones merely swapped out a computer chip so that the automated factory would produce subpar droids! I don't know of a single military operation in history that even comes close to resembling this bullshit wankery. Not only was it stupidly implied that subpar droids were worse than no droids at all, but there was nothing preventing the Separatists from quickly correcting this deficiency when they discovered it!

A plan this stupid doesn't need Separatist "uber speshul forcez" to counter. Fucking auditors and inspectors would have owned this shit. Traviss would have us believe that the Commerce Guilds, Techno Union, etc., all with centuries of experience in the production of goods, never bothered with any quality checks before shipping their products out.

That's not even the worst part though. It was explicitly stated in Odds that there were only worker and maintenance droids around the factory at night, ones so damn blind that they could stroll past a clone without even noticing him! A throwaway reference to the "electromagnetic profile" of their armor isn't enough. The Separatists don't even employ security, droid or biological, at night during war time in one of their most important factories! Forget auditors, fucking rent-a-cops could have defeated this plan!

Traviss's entire plan is based on the Separatists being too stupid, lazy, and negligent to employ any depth in their security. Now, I'm no military or security expert, just a guy who likes to read about that kind of stuff in my spare time. My college education is in accounting and auditing. And you know what? Even in an undergraduate accounting course they taught us better than to allow conditions so vulnerable that the whole thing could come crashing down if someone gets past a single layer of security (which may still be giving more credit than Traviss deserves). A fucking accounting course, going off on a side discussion of security in one chapter of its textbook.

Traviss is a journalist (sorry- journo). Things like realism, believable numbers, and knowing how the fuck what you're writing about works aren't things they worry about.

I'm wondering if we can eventually get someone to demote Traviss' bullshit to the same category as that Star Wars fan fiction that somehow got published before the cease-and-desist order was sent.

Coiler wrote: I said in the OP that this thread is for discussing military related errors that don't have to do with numbers. We've known her numbers have been too low ever since she first wrote them, that's not the point of this thread.

What i'm trying to do is get at the fact the she did not take into account that the clones would be filling more roles than just those of enlisted personnel.

What I find funny is how dumb she wants to make the CIS. Think of it this way. If the CIS is as mind numbingly moronic as she says they are then what does it say about the Clone armies that barely beat them. If you can barely beat a moron what does that make you?

Bilbo wrote:What I find funny is how dumb she wants to make the CIS. Think of it this way. If the CIS is as mind numbingly moronic as she says they are then what does it say about the Clone armies that barely beat them. If you can barely beat a moron what does that make you?

It's important to note that the Clone Armies Did not beat the CIS!
The war was still ongoing when Anakin Skywalker (a jedi/sith) issued the order for the droid armies to stand down.

Sure, Dooku and Grevious were both dead, but the separatist council was deeply entrenched on Mustafar, (described as a "fortress world") and could have continued fighting if they though Lord Sidious was going to screw them. Sure, the republic was certainly winning the war at that point, but major engagements were still ongoing on Mygeeto, Felucia, and Kashyyk.

Traviss' vaunted uber-clones had no impact whatsoever on the end of the clone wars.

Darksider wrote: Traviss' vaunted uber-clones had no impact whatsoever on the end of the clone wars.

Well there was that whole Order 66 thing, but I see your point.

I just readed this post. Please, tell me that Traviss is NOT the major EU author on the Clone Wars, those errors are too stupid!

lord Martiya wrote:I just readed this post. Please, tell me that Traviss is NOT the major EU author on the Clone Wars, those errors are too stupid!

The EU has divided into two opposing branches, because LFL is too chickenshit to admit it made a mistake by not dismissing Traviss's first clone army article years ago. Now, you have the animated Clone Wars series which draws inspiration from the movies, while Traviss has been allowed to define the Mandalorians and the Clone Wars in the novels. No one at LFL will come out and say that these sources contradict.

You know, I'm beginning to be glad that EU novels are not published in Italy. At least I'm not in danger of wasting money on that shit...

Ignoring the GAR article, which is essentially ANOTHER EU article which ignores the massive tail end of a modern army along with combat and logistical support, mixed up with brainbugs about how infantry>>>>> everything else.... the good clone novel series also have very screwed up Clone tactics.


I have to go dig up specifics, but Travis puts even more emphasis on infantry and portable firepower than most other EU novelists. Granted, she's talking about special ops and commandoes but its still relatively more "odd" than say..... Shatterpoint.

Jim Raynor wrote: The EU has divided into two opposing branches, because LFL is too chickenshit to admit it made a mistake by not dismissing Traviss's first clone army article years ago.

They admit to making mistakes? Usually they just quietly make revisions and hope that noone notices the errors. And even then you'll always have soures that dig up the old controversies. (There are stll sources that throw about the 120 km DS1 figure, as I recall.)

And I would think you're drastically overestimating the impact Traviss has on the EU, or that its nearly as clear cut as that. There are and have been some time now lots of different "viewpoints" and "factions" beyond those who are like us on SD.net or people who accept TRaviss views (or minimlaists for that matter.) Hell even the so called "rationalists" (I can't ever bring myself to seriously use that term because it sounds so bloody pompous) aren't a unified faction (neither are the minimalists I imagine either.) and then you always have the segment of people who either are indifferent or just consider it silly.

Traviss made some silly introductions to the EU, but she was hardly some monolithic threat to the sanctity of the SW universe (you know the way some people portray Curtis.) We've had lots of silly authors putting stupid shit into SW before (someone like Sarli, for example, or KJA and his silly stuff.) and probably countless others but so what? We deal with it the same way we deal with other forms of stupidity. Thats what SoD style analysis is for. And I'd note that there were groups who didnt agree with Traviss who were hardly of the same vein as us (the Dark Horse SW comics and STradley in particular and his views on the Mandowank, other authors like Dan Wallace, who has been noted to criticize some of Curtis's introductions as well.) On top of that we know alot of sources tend to disregard her stuff as much as she disregards others (look at her view of the mandoclones as opposed to the stuff we see in the CW series, or the stuff as presented in other sources like the last STarships of the galaxy supplement.)

Captain Seafort wrote:The author of that post, if anything, is letting Traviss off lightly. Not only is her GAR a pure rifleman force, right up to Army Group and beyond, she doesn't even give it any commanders. Sure, there's the list of various clone and Jedi ranks, but they're integrated into the main TOE. In short it isn't an army - it's just a lot of sections.

There are also the relatively minor problems that the numbers she gives aren't compatable with the numbers shown on screen - her battalions are about 50 men shy of the 620-ish men in the battalions on the parade ground in AotC, and she's ignored the explicit statement in the ICS that divisions are 16K strong.

To provide another comparison, it's also ugly when compared to (for example) the Soviet forces in the early 1980s. The basic (and somewhat simplified) organization:
Motorized rifle squad: 8 men (4 enlisted rifles, 1 NCO rifle, 2 MGs, 1 AT weapon) plus 2-man APC crew - 10 men
Platoon: 3 squads + 1 lieutenant - 31 men
Company: 3 platoons, company commander, political officer, technical officer, 3 SA-7 anti-aircraft missileers, 1st sergeant with rifle, clerk, medic/rifleman, command APC with 2-man crew - 104 men
Battalion: Battalion HQ, 3 infantry companies, 1 mortar battery, 1 communications platoon , 1 air-defence sub-unit, 1 supply platoon, 1 medical section, 1 repair workshop, 1 anti-tank platoon - 430 men, less than 300 of which are riflemen. This is also a Soviet infantry formation, which were known for not being a high-tech army that needed much support.

Indeed. If you use a modern British armoured infantry battalion instead, there are only 192 men in the manoeuvre sections, out of a total strength of 741 - barely a quarter of the total.

It's just that popular culture finds it cooler to just focus on special ops soldiers, and to a lesser extent, the average grunt. "Journos" like KT just tend to overlook the other less interesting aspects for a good story, and have been doing it for so long that they end up believing their own rubbish.

As an "average grunt" I admit we're less flashy then the SpecOps boys, but disagree that the things we do are any less interesting.

sorry, just saying that the media is overly focused on special ops, and ignores other key components of the army; I ended up generalizing and i'm sorry

Yah I know exactly what you're saying I was just pointing out that it's not true at all. Line units do have interesting things happen all the time. It's just we're actually allowed to tell you about most of them

again, sorry

Some of the maintenance, technical, and other non-combat jobs might be performed by computer automation or droids. That still doesn't excuse the glaring absence of battle staffs at every level. Yeah, Karen just fucked up.

I checked this on Wookie, and here's the numbers:
Squad = 9 troopers
Platoon = 36 troopers (9x4)
Company = 144 troopers (36x4)
Battalion = 576 troopers (144x4)

Yeah, apparently Traviss is unaware that a military unit is composed of anything besides its ground maneuver elements. This is damn stupid. You don't need a military background or even an interest in military science to see that this is stupid. For fuck sakes, even platoons have a headquarters element, separate from the rifle squads. You've got a platoon leader, platoon sergeant, radio guy, medic, and fire support guy at a minimum. You might also have some heavy weapons as a platoon asset, nominally independent of the squads. That's half a dozen to a dozen extra soldiers just for a platoon.

Traviss (or whoever) must have spent no time at all thinking this up. Really, it looks like she took a nine-man squad, and then kept multiplying by four. Way to go. Way to put some effort into thinking up something interesting for the fans.

Its made worse when we see in canon g movie that clones form part of these staff elements, whether its in comns, HQ or etc. Indeed, two of these "staff" soldiers attempted to kill Master Yoda in ROTS.

I considered making a topic from this, but I think it's more amusing than thought-provoking, so I'll post it here. In looking up the numbers for my above post, I came across this, concerning Imperial Army battalions (which do have a headquarters/headquarters company):

Wookie wrote:Additional to these 90 Human personnel, Battalion HQ contained 145 droids, of which a hundred or more were usually MSE-6 mouse droids; the rest varied according to availability in the local sector.

Mouse droids? Mouse droids? LOL, what the hell for? At best, they can be used as couriers or navigational aids, neither of which are likely to see a lot of use. Of all the droids out there, useful as medics, comms specialists, mules, engineers, UAVs, really any support job you can think of, an Imperial Army battalion gets mouse droids. Maybe they can serve as a picket line. You'll know wookies are coming if you see mouse droids retreating towards you, screaming in terror.