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What is the overall concensuous of the Kotor comic by John Jackson Miller?

Can't speak to the overall, but personally I think it is the only decent product SW is putting out these days. Novels have been in the toilet since ROTS came out, Legacy jumped the shark when they did the whole "hey look we brought back the characters we created from generations ago because they are cool! They are so much cooler than the movie people, that's why the are still around!" bit, I can't recall the last video game I really enjoyed from them, and the Clone Wars TV show is too cliche.

KOTOR comic is solid though. It has the right pulp feel to it, with some actual twists, turns, and character development. It is light hearted at the right points, dark at the right points, and generally conveys the epic feel I expect from a SW comic.

KotOR comic is one of the few good things being done with star wars these days

I hate it. Of course, I am an art first comic fan and I hate the art so that doesn't help me want to read the story in an objective mood. It is OK, as far as the story goes I suppose. I could do without Griff, or whatever the little pig ugnaught thing is called. The comedy sidekick/schemer is tired. I like that they move the focus off the failed padawan that saves the day every so often.

The Jedi come off as fucking dumb to me, as once again, they have no idea what is going on. Every time this happens, it cheapens Palpatine, as what he does seems far less impressive.

But the Jedi are dumb and naive that's what happens when you raise people in isolation to believe that they are infallible. Not intelligence dumb, but "street" dumb.

Kartr_Kana wrote:But the Jedi are dumb and naive that's what happens when you raise people in isolation to believe that they are infallible. Not intelligence dumb, but "street" dumb.

That seems to be an opinion. Of course that completely ignores the galaxy hoping the Jedi do on a regular basis.

Yes it's my opinion. At the same time it does seem that the Jedi's arrogance in the PT that the Sith were dead and buried allowed Sidious to cloud the Force without tipping them off. And yes the Jedi do travel the galaxy innumerable times....

Wait why am I arguing with you? The Jedi's inexplicable stupidity and incompetence is one of the main reasons I dislike them. Not because that makes Palpy look less geniousy, but because the jedi were supposed to be bad asses, not the retarded two-face fucks they were turned into.

Arrogance is one thing. Dumb and naive is another. I like the idea that Palpatine was that powerful and that much of a badass, and that coupled with the Jedi's arrogance and stagnation allowed him to cast his veil over the Lightside. Saying the Jedi don't have street smarts, are incompetent and are stupid well, that is basically ignoring the movies.

I also don't really want to argue this point at this time because I know it will be very involved, as we have seen. Suffice it to say, we are opposed.

Over Palpantine yes we are, over the Jedi maybe, maybe not. Personally I dislike the PT Jedi Order with the exception of Liam Neeson's Qui-gon and Ewan McGregor's Obi-wan. They were to much monk and not enough Knight IMO. Anyways I agree to a ceasefire

Kartr_Kana wrote:But the Jedi are dumb and naive that's what happens when you raise people in isolation to believe that they are infallible. Not intelligence dumb, but "street" dumb.

The Jedi of the KotOR era are not raised inside the Jedi Temple. They still tend to choose apprentices from among the young adults and adults of the population at large, although the age of the chosen is decreasing ever since the Great Sith War. The actual, formal decision to raise future Jedi from infancy to adulthood happened around the Ruusan Reformation.

And no, Jedi are not raised to believe themselves to be infallible. That is stressed enough in various sources. However, many do become arrogant because of their skills, abilities with the Force and usually more holistic view of life and death than that of the average person.

Ender wrote:Legacy jumped the shark when they did the whole "hey look we brought back the characters we created from generations ago because they are cool! They are so much cooler than the movie people, that's why the are still around!" bit

Wait, what?

Thanas wrote:

Ender wrote:Legacy jumped the shark when they did the whole "hey look we brought back the characters we created from generations ago because they are cool! They are so much cooler than the movie people, that's why the are still around!" bit

Wait, what?

I believe that Ender means Darth Krayt and who he really is (Spoilers: A'Sharad Hett); and the two Jedi Masters (rather minor characters in the Clone Wars comics) T'ra Saa and K'Kruhk. I don't recall more such characters, although it is possible they are still around.

Tiriol wrote:

Thanas wrote:

Ender wrote:Legacy jumped the shark when they did the whole "hey look we brought back the characters we created from generations ago because they are cool! They are so much cooler than the movie people, that's why the are still around!" bit

Wait, what?

I believe that Ender means Darth Krayt and who he really is (Spoilers: A'Sharad Hett); and the two Jedi Masters (rather minor characters in the Clone Wars comics) T'ra Saa and K'Kruhk. I don't recall more such characters, although it is possible they are still around.

Yeah, but how is that jumping the shark, especially considering that the two jedi masters do not really influence the story and that Krayt's identity only served as a plot point to explain his hate for Skywalkers?

It's not. There has been no "The Fonz Jumps A Shark On Water Skies" utterly ridiculous moment. I agree with Ender about the use of old nobody characters, but in universe it isn't that unreasonable that younger nobody Jedi will grow and mature into more powerful Jedi and take leadership roles. I think however, that quite a few people, including myself, like the idea of Yoda actually being the last of the Prequel type Jedi and Luke being the first of a new breed, and having all these other Jedi show up from seemingly everywhere cheapens that.

havokeff wrote:It's not. There has been no "The Fonz Jumps A Shark On Water Skies" utterly ridiculous moment. I agree with Ender about the use of old nobody characters, but in universe it isn't that unreasonable that younger nobody Jedi will grow and mature into more powerful Jedi and take leadership roles. I think however, that quite a few people, including myself, like the idea of Yoda actually being the last of the Prequel type Jedi and Luke being the first of a new breed, and having all these other Jedi show up from seemingly everywhere cheapens that.

Yeah, I can see that and I do agree that it cheapens the significance of Yoda. However, I believe that Legacy is actually very tame in that regard - the Jedi in question are absolute isolationists, so much that the leader of them literally took root where her lover was buried. Seriously, she could not have influenced things that much, so I do not mind those two that much. As for Krayt, he spent most of his life in hiding.

I believe Lucas really did cheapen that, since he was the instigator for Quinlan "Wank" Vos surviving Order 66 (of all the people, they had to save him...why not Aayla? At least she was easy on the eyes...) and is behind all that crap that turns out "Jedi survive Order 66, try to flee empire" which seems to be the plot point of every new game.

I have no problem with Jedi surviving Order 66. It has always been my assumption that Vader and the Empire had hunted them all through out the time up until ROTJ. Obi-Wan says in ANH that the Jedi are all but extinct, implying that there are some left. Yoda is very specific in ROTJ that once he is dead, Luke is the last. One can read into that however one likes, but I take it literally.

I do agree Legacy doesn't get carried away with it and has introduced a whole new group of Force users that are from the correct time frame to off set Hett, but I still think it is lame.

Tiriol wrote:The Jedi of the KotOR era are not raised inside the Jedi Temple.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of the Padawan killing Masters in the KotOR comics raised as Jedi? Isn't it the Padawan who was raised by his family as a normal person, before joining the Jedi and who has less of a connection/strength in the Force then his peers, who out wits and out smarts even physically defending himself from these same Temple raised Jedi masters?

Tiriol wrote:And no, Jedi are not raised to believe themselves to be infallible. That is stressed enough in various sources. However, many do become arrogant because of their skills, abilities with the Force and usually more holistic view of life and death than that of the average person.

"Why do I sense that we've picked up another pathetic life form?"-Obi-wan Kenobi The Phantom Menace(I don't know if that quote is word for word, but I definitely remember the "pathetic lifeform" bit).

Also while the Jedi do not teach that they are superior to "lesser beings", they do teach that they are special, have special powers and that they have a special calling. While they also teach that all life is sacred and that having special powers means you have to be especially responsible, etc. The very fact that they're raised separate from the very people they are supposed to protect and serve and they're told they're special is going to lead to a subconscious "we're better then them" mentality. Yoda even comments on the arrogance of the younger generations! This subconscious "we're better then them" mentality is a major weakness, in fact I would argue that it is the weakness that allowed the Sith to subtly influence the Galaxy and cloud the Force for generations without the Jedi realizing.

This is main reason I like the KotOR era so much, you do have normal people being discovered and trained as Jedi. It's not the hidebound stagnant organization it's become by the PT.

Kartr_Kana wrote:

Tiriol wrote:The Jedi of the KotOR era are not raised inside the Jedi Temple.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of the Padawan killing Masters in the KotOR comics raised as Jedi? Isn't it the Padawan who was raised by his family as a normal person, before joining the Jedi and who has less of a connection/strength in the Force then his peers, who out wits and out smarts even physically defending himself from these same Temple raised Jedi masters?

The KOTOR game itself suggests it all just depends on a Jedi's particular circumstances. Bastila was taken at a young age, but not so young that she doesn't remember (and have strong opinions about) her parents. On the other hand, Juhani was old enough to leave Taris on her own and go look for the order, and they still took her in anyway. (The Dantooine Jedi Council also mentions that brainwashed Revan would be too old under normal circumstances, but since at that point Revan would have to at least be in her mid-to-late twenties that's not really saying much.)

I'm not arguing that KotOR era Jedi aren't all raised in the Temple, just those who are more arrogant, less competent and are generally stupid.

Juhani is actually a good example of how the Temple/Jedi training can and does turn one into an arrogant and retarded fool. She shows up coming from the humblest beginnings with the intelligence, common sense and smarts to survive Taris. Then after a few years of Jedi training she thinks that she is so powerful and special that she was able to kill her master using the Dark Side. She can't even figure out that her master didn't die (which is telling since Master and Apprentice have special "bond") or that it was a test that she failed. After she realizes how blinded and stupid her arrogance made her she settles down into a very normal, humble, well rounded person.

The Jedi actually help plant the seeds of the Dark Side by isolating them from the outside world and fostering a sense of superiority (however subconscious). All the Sith have to do is nurture that feeling of being superior to "pathetic life forms" and promise them their rightful place at the top of the pecking order. It's what Sidious did to Anakin in Ep3!

Kartr_Kana wrote:"Why do I sense that we've picked up another pathetic life form?"-Obi-wan Kenobi The Phantom Menace(I don't know if that quote is word for word, but I definitely remember the "pathetic lifeform" bit).

How are you going to quote Obi-Wan like that, and completely disregard that his Master and his beliefs and philosophy are completely contrary to that quote? And *GASP* some Jedi are fucking jerks. Just like some cops are jerks, or some ministers are jerks, or some teachers, or engineers, or firemen... Obi-Wan being an arrogant prick does not mean the entire order is that way. Jedi, despite all the "brainwashing" bullshit people spew, are completely individual.

Also while the Jedi do not teach that they are superior to "lesser beings", they do teach that they are special, have special powers and that they have a special calling. While they also teach that all life is sacred and that having special powers means you have to be especially responsible, etc.

Most of, if not all of which is true. What about any of that is wrong?

The very fact that they're raised separate from the very people they are supposed to protect and serve and they're told they're special is going to lead to a subconscious "we're better then them" mentality.

Separate from which people exactly? They defend an ENTIRE GALAXY. No matter how or where you raise them ,they are going to be separate from almost the entire rest of the galaxy's population. It's not like the state National Guard. And do you really want properly trained Jedi children mixing with regular kids? What if the other kids pick on him? What if she picks on the other kids? Do you want a 7 year old that can crush people with his thoughts getting mad or throwing a temper tantrum on the playground?

Yoda even comments on the arrogance of the younger generations! This subconscious "we're better then them" mentality is a major weakness, in fact I would argue that it is the weakness that allowed the Sith to subtly influence the Galaxy and cloud the Force for generations without the Jedi realizing.

It isn't directed at the younger Jedi, but the older Jedi that should know better and specifically in that situation, Obi-Wan, who,again, has been an arrogant jerk for most of his life. And his point wasn't about a "better than them mentality", but the Jedi growing too content with their place in the galaxy and their lack of growth in the Force. Arrogance that they have learned all there is to learn in regards to the Force and that their ways are the most powerful and only ways.

havokeff wrote:

Kartr_Kana wrote: "Why do I sense that we've picked up another pathetic life form?"-Obi-wan Kenobi The Phantom Menace(I don't know if that quote is word for word, but I definitely remember the "pathetic lifeform" bit).

How are you going to quote Obi-Wan like that, and completely disregard that his Master and his beliefs and philosophy are completely contrary to that quote?

The same beliefs and philosophy that kept Qui-gon off the council. I haven't watched TPM in years, but doesn't Obi-wan tell Qui-gon that he needs to stop acting according to those very beliefs if he wants to be a part of the Council? I like Qui-gon I think he's the best Jedi in the PT and isn't it telling that his beliefs of following the living Force and helping/protecting the weak is frowned upon by the Jedi Council and by extension the rest of the Order?

havokeff wrote:Most of, if not all of which is true. What about any of that is wrong?

Yes it's true, and yeah you can't really get around it. My problem is that they cloister away those kids, which keeps them from seeing that in every other way they are "normal". Some kids are good at shockball, some at painting, some writing, and some with musical instruments. Jedi kids just have a different talent, albeit one that has the potential to be far more destructive.

havokeff wrote:Separate from which people exactly? They defend an ENTIRE GALAXY. No matter how or where you raise them ,they are going to be separate from almost the entire rest of the galaxy's population. It's not like the state National Guard.

Is raising a family, going to work and paying taxes so different from one end of the Galaxy to the other? Yes I know there are some pretty bizarre worlds and cultures out there, but for the most part the values and culture seems to be very similar. Even across species, I mean the Bothans, Mon Cal, Correllians, Alderaanians, Nabooians and many others all seem to value family, try and raise kids in good homes, work a day(or night job), pay taxes, etc. etc.

havokeff wrote:And do you really want properly trained Jedi children mixing with regular kids? What if the other kids pick on him? What if she picks on the other kids? Do you want a 7 year old that can crush people with his thoughts getting mad or throwing a temper tantrum on the playground?

Who said anything about them having been trained? I'm saying let them live a normal life until they reach at least their teen years, maybe even their early twenties. Once they've grown up and learned the basics of life, by living it instead of reading about it then you train them. That's what happened with Luke and he turned out far better then the Old Order would have predicted.

havokeff wrote:It isn't directed at the younger Jedi, but the older Jedi that should know better and specifically in that situation, Obi-Wan, who,again, has been an arrogant jerk for most of his life. And his point wasn't about a "better than them mentality", but the Jedi growing too content with their place in the galaxy and their lack of growth in the Force. Arrogance that they have learned all there is to learn in regards to the Force and that their ways are the most powerful and only ways.

I haven't seen AotC in a very long time so I can't really refute this. The impression that I have from that was that Obi-wan was complaining about Anakin and Yoda was gently rebuking him by pointing out that since he had joined the Jedi Order they'd become more arrogant. Like I said I could be wrong it's been a very very long time since I've watched either of the first two movies.

Kartr_Kana wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Kartr_Kana wrote: "Why do I sense that we've picked up another pathetic life form?"-Obi-wan Kenobi The Phantom Menace(I don't know if that quote is word for word, but I definitely remember the "pathetic lifeform" bit).

How are you going to quote Obi-Wan like that, and completely disregard that his Master and his beliefs and philosophy are completely contrary to that quote?

The same beliefs and philosophy that kept Qui-gon off the council. I haven't watched TPM in years, but doesn't Obi-wan tell Qui-gon that he needs to stop acting according to those very beliefs if he wants to be a part of the Council? I like Qui-gon I think he's the best Jedi in the PT and isn't it telling that his beliefs of following the living Force and helping/protecting the weak is frowned upon by the Jedi Council and by extension the rest of the Order?

Or, the Jedi, like every organization in existence, has rules and Qui-Gon breaks them. This is also made very clear. The council makes the rules. If you break the rules, you don't get to be on the council. You are also assuming Qui-Gon even wanted to be on the council, but that is beside the point. And it isn't his beliefs that the council frowns upon, but his particular actions and absolute stubbornness in carrying them out. Remember, if Qui-Gon had listened to them, they would all still be alive. The council isn't a "Do this just because we say so group" and they have dissent on decisions even amongst themselves. They do what they do and lay down their rules for the good of the Jedi and the Order as a whole.

havokeff wrote:Most of, if not all of which is true. What about any of that is wrong?

Yes it's true, and yeah you can't really get around it. My problem is that they cloister away those kids, which keeps them from seeing that in every other way they are "normal". Some kids are good at shockball, some at painting, some writing, and some with musical instruments. Jedi kids just have a different talent, albeit one that has the potential to be far more destructive.

I don't see that. Based on every Jedi child we have seen, they act just like normal kids, but happen to have super powers. Why is the Order any different from sending kids away to military or boarding school? Other than when the kids get sent there.

havokeff wrote:Separate from which people exactly? They defend an ENTIRE GALAXY. No matter how or where you raise them ,they are going to be separate from almost the entire rest of the galaxy's population. It's not like the state National Guard.

Is raising a family, going to work and paying taxes so different from one end of the Galaxy to the other? Yes I know there are some pretty bizarre worlds and cultures out there, but for the most part the values and culture seems to be very similar. Even across species, I mean the Bothans, Mon Cal, Correllians, Alderaanians, Nabooians and many others all seem to value family, try and raise kids in good homes, work a day(or night job), pay taxes, etc. etc.

And why do you assume that the Jedi do not instill and provide family type relationships? In fact we see that they do. Obi-Wan is devastated when Qui-Gon dies. Clearly Obi-Wan and Anakin love each other. Yoda acts as the funny little grandpa to all the younglings. No, it is certainly not a "traditional" family, but there is nothing wrong with it.

havokeff wrote:And do you really want properly trained Jedi children mixing with regular kids? What if the other kids pick on him? What if she picks on the other kids? Do you want a 7 year old that can crush people with his thoughts getting mad or throwing a temper tantrum on the playground?

Who said anything about them having been trained? I'm saying let them live a normal life until they reach at least their teen years, maybe even their early twenties. Once they've grown up and learned the basics of life, by living it instead of reading about it then you train them. That's what happened with Luke and he turned out far better then the Old Order would have predicted.

Really? I think he turned out exactly as Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted and hoped. And keep in mind that they left the Order of the Jedi in Luke's hand on purpose knowing full well that he wasn't trained traditionally as they had been. None of this was done on accident. And again, you are reading too much into what you think you are seeing and what we actually know. Luke was a farmer. He didn't get any great life experiences farming water on Tattooine and hanging out with his friends at Toshe Station. Basically, Luke was a fucking hick that had never gone anywhere or seen anything out side of getting to fly his T-16 and shoot at vermin.

And seriously... you are saying how great it is to let the Jedi start training people in their teens and early twenties, forgetting for the moment that that is when most people are at their most emotional, dumbass, arrogant states of life, but what has history shown of the Jedi Order that doesn't do things the way we see in the PT? Whole armies of Sith, many taken straight from the ranks of the Jedi and galactic scale conflicts because of them. When we see the Prequel Jedi, there are two Sith and it has been 1000 years since they were able to bring conflict to the Jedi and the galaxy and only 20 members have left the order. It is a much more stable and safe system than that of the past and future Jedi.

havokeff wrote:It isn't directed at the younger Jedi, but the older Jedi that should know better and specifically in that situation, Obi-Wan, who,again, has been an arrogant jerk for most of his life. And his point wasn't about a "better than them mentality", but the Jedi growing too content with their place in the galaxy and their lack of growth in the Force. Arrogance that they have learned all there is to learn in regards to the Force and that their ways are the most powerful and only ways.

I haven't seen AotC in a very long time so I can't really refute this. The impression that I have from that was that Obi-wan was complaining about Anakin and Yoda was gently rebuking him by pointing out that since he had joined the Jedi Order they'd become more arrogant. Like I said I could be wrong it's been a very very long time since I've watched either of the first two movies.

That is one of Yoda's points as well.

P.S. I guess I am going to tread into this argument after all.

Hav that bit about there not being a galactic war in the last 1000 years... well I don't have a counter for it. You're right there system does work better as a whole. Even though sometimes a kid who grew up in a traditional family can out smart Jedi Masters I guess it wasn't really what I had expected (from the OT), and I'd let my preconceptions cloud my judgment.

Still there ain't nuthin wrong with hicks

There are a lot of responsible and emotionally well adjusted 18-20 year olds, you just never hear about them

Kartr_Kana wrote:Juhani is actually a good example of how the Temple/Jedi training can and does turn one into an arrogant and retarded fool. She shows up coming from the humblest beginnings with the intelligence, common sense and smarts to survive Taris. Then after a few years of Jedi training she thinks that she is so powerful and special that she was able to kill her master using the Dark Side. She can't even figure out that her master didn't die (which is telling since Master and Apprentice have special "bond") or that it was a test that she failed. After she realizes how blinded and stupid her arrogance made her she settles down into a very normal, humble, well rounded person.

Juhani was not well-adjusted when she came to the Jedi training: her family had been taken away from her, her species as a whole had suffered, she had been treated like chattle on Taris and she resented all that. It is no wonder that she had enough uncontrolled anger insider her to briefly be seduced by the dark side, however lightly.

There are a lot of responsible and emotionally well adjusted 18-20 year olds, you just never hear about them

True, but it still is a very emotionally charged time, just like the teenage years before. The body is still changing, hormones are still raging and there is comparatively little experience with the world and most likely there hasn't been much higher education. Most people of that age are well-adjusted, but it is still very stormy time.

Quite true Tiriol