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It is frequently claimed that the entire Rebel Alliance was pressent at the Battle of Endor. Given the insignificance of the observed Rebel fleet at Endor, this implies either severe minimilism, or a pitifully small Rebellion on the relative scale of a neighborhood gang in a small US city, lacking in popular support, which should have been incapable of taking Galactic power. Moreover, it suggests sever tactical and strategic incompetance on the part of Rebel Leadership, to put every asset of a gurilla force in one place, including units that would likely serve little purpose in the Endor raid. While this claim can obviously be applied only to the Alliance propper, and not its myriad supporters and sypathizers on various worlds or the other Rebel groups not affiliated with the Alliance, I find it nonetheless difficult to rationalize in the context of the existing continuity or in the context of rational thoughts.

To the best of my knowledge, the main evidence for this claim is the following excerpt from the Return of the Jedi novelization:

"In a remote and midnight vacume beyond the edge of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to it rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bombers, Sullustian cargo freighters, Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian skyhoppers, X-wing, Y-wing, and A-wing fighters, shuttles, transport vehicles, manowars. Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions. They were lead by the largest of the Rebel Cruisers, the Headquarters Frigate.

Hundreds of Rebel commanders, of all species and lifeforms, assembled in the war room of the giant Star Cruiser, awaiting orders from the Hight Command."

What conclusions can be drawn from the above passage? (Aside from the misslabling of Home One as a Frigate rather than as a cruiser or battle ship, and the intersting implication that "Star Cruiser" is a specific class, given the repeated capitallization)

First, if we are to take this quote litteraly rather than as hyperbolly, the entire Rebellion was indeed at this meeting (presumably only the Alliance propper, and not every supporter on every world around the Galaxy or in a rebel group not affilliated with the Alliance).

Second, the fleet was very large, extending "past the range of human vision." However, it is in no way clear that this fleet is identical in composition to the one that arrived at Endor. The diversity of vessels described as pressent in this vast armada is not easily matched to the on-screen fleet, nor is the size of the described armada, and it furthermore includes classes that would likely have little utillity in either a fleet battle or a raid. Granted, the Alliance brought along some transports to Endor that were employed as ram ships, but only a supremely stupid commander would expose every single logistical support unit to needless peril by bringing them on a raid unless it was absolutely nessissary.

Lastly, the meeting described above took place ]outside of the Galaxy, before the Rebellion even gathered at Sullust to prepair for the attack on the second Death Star. Theirfore, unless their is a quote which explicitely says that the entire Rebellion was at Endor, then any lower canon sources that place Rebel forces elsewhere at the time would still presumably, under Lucasfilm's canon policy, be valid. In short, both logic and canon policy seem to suggest that the fleet described above was not entirely pressent at Endor.

Of course this begs the question of why the Rebellion would bring all their forces to a meeting. Less risky, perhaps, than bringing them all to a battle, but still hardly an intelligent or logical move. Frankly, the above quote is irrational, and the Star Wars Universe would be better off without it. However, by recognizing that the above description does not nessissarily refer to the fleet pressent at Endor, it may be possible to limit the damage, and avoid attempts to reduce the Rebellion only to the meagre fleet present at Endor, or to an organization commanded by tactically and strategically incompetant fools. After all, why the hell would the Rebellion deploy tankers against the Death Star? And at the end of the day, it is also simply a question of accuracy.

Ultimately, I would draw two main conclusions from the above quote. First, the Alliance propper was small on a galactic scale, but its fleet was not nessissarily limitted to what was pressent at Endor. Secondly, the canon policy does not (at least in this passage) overrule the possibillity of some Rebel forces being elsewhere during the Battle of Endor. This is fortunate, as it would have been highly irrational for the entire Alliance fleet to be pressent at Endor, and it makes some sense that certain forces would be kept elsewhere to meet nessissary strategic needs (raiding the Emipire, protecting the leadership, safeguarding supportive worlds against a sudden attack, etc). Further, if the fleet at Endor is indeed held to be the entire Rebel fleet, it may become easier for certain parties to, perhaps inacurrately, argue for a minimalist interpretation of the Alliance, which may also feed into minimalist interpretations of the entire Star Wars Universe.

Obviously, this argument all falls apart if other quotes exist in high-level canon that verify that the entire Rebellion was at Endor. I'll be checking the novelization out of the library tomorrow, but if anyone wishes to contradict my reasoning before then, please, fire away.

The Rebellion liked to make goodwill gestures that served little or no military value, if not the opposite. For example, in the ANH novelization, many Rebel leaders from across the galaxy actually gathered at Yavin to be present for the battle. Considering they brought such sterling warships as the "medical frigate" to the engagement, it's hardly surprising the Rebels would bring other near-useless military assets to the battle. And while not explicitely confirming that the entire Rebel Alliance was present, an entire campaign of TIE Fighter is spent making sure the Rebels commit their full force.

Of course, one could simply point to "waited tensely in these ships for instructions" to say that it's highly likely that, yes, they were all committed to Endor.

The whole fleet didn't go to Ender. A task force was sent to make sure that KDY shipyards stayed intact in the Bounty Hunter novel series and other important locations might have rated task forces of their own..

From the Rebel Alliance section on the OS:

Official Site wrote:While history has recorded much of the activities of the core group of Rebels attached the Alliance High Command, the efforts of the many sector groups scattered throughout the galaxy should not go forgotten. These groups, the Sector Forces, proceeded with feint attacks, spreading the Emperor's forces thin, and giving the heart of the Alliance time to regroup and develop its final thrust against Palpatine.

There is also no reason to assume all the "tensely" waiting troops and ships were being sent to Endor. Not to mention the ships used to defend Rebel planets and the Calamari sector.

TC Pilot wrote:The Rebellion liked to make goodwill gestures that served little or no military value, if not the opposite. For example, in the ANH novelization, many Rebel leaders from across the galaxy actually gathered at Yavin to be present for the battle. Considering they brought such sterling warships as the "medical frigate" to the engagement, it's hardly surprising the Rebels would bring other near-useless military assets to the battle. And while not explicitely confirming that the entire Rebel Alliance was present, an entire campaign of TIE Fighter is spent making sure the Rebels commit their full force.

Of course, one could simply point to "waited tensely in these ships for instructions" to say that it's highly likely that, yes, they were all committed to Endor.

They could have been waiting tensely to find out which of 'em were getting sent to Endor, and which ones were being sent elsewhere.

The only problem I have with that is, why are they there in the first place, then? But yeah, you have a valid point.

I wonder what the novel says about the fleet that jumped to hyperspace for the battle. Could be useful.

I always rationalized it to myself by saying that the Rebellion was mostly guerilla fighters on the ground and it was just their space forces that were so pathetic. I'm not sure how much sense that makes in a galaxy where even individual smugglers can afford their own ships, but maybe the difference between something like the Falcon and something like an ISD is comparable to a speedboat vs a nuclear aircraft carrier, in which case it says something a bunch of ragged-assed guerillas could have a fleet of real warships at all.

Its likely that there is a combination of things going on:

1.) the witnessed battle of Endor is not representative of the full event.. we only saw glimpses of it and thus glimpses of the fleet. This can make sense given that in the novel we're told the Rebels were trapped in a pincer, and the fact they never escaped into hyperspace also suggests that there were likely interdictors present. As such we may infer the entire battle spread throughout the system (ships trying to take out the interdictors, for example.)

2.) We know that the entire Rebel fleet could not have been there. We're told by Mon Mothma that the Imperial fleet was "spread throughout the galaxy" attempting to engage the Rebels to such an extent the DS2 could not be (as far as they knew at least) protected. That wouldn't make sense if they were trying to merely trrick the Empire via misinformation (using false ships, EW/decoys, etc.) or using smaller vessels (freighter,s fighters, etc.) They would need to use high-profile ships.

We also know that its unlikely that the Mon Cals totally abandoned their planet and its shipyards to field ships to the Rebels. (There is the "Task force" at KDY but they represented merely a squadron of fighters, so I'm not sure that qualifies.) but its quite likely that some similar facilities may have been highly protected as well.

Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions.

If you want to get really pedantic, the passage only says they were waiting tensely in their ships, not waiting tensely in their ships in the fleet. For all we know rebels all over the galaxy were huddled around their radio for orders to attack shipyards/hold up reinforcements/secure important facilities in the confusion after the battle. Or they were simply waiting for any news of the attack.

Bounty wrote:

Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions.

If you want to get really pedantic, the passage only says they were waiting tensely in their ships, not waiting tensely in their ships in the fleet. For all we know rebels all over the galaxy were huddled around their radio for orders to attack shipyards/hold up reinforcements/secure important facilities in the confusion after the battle. Or they were simply waiting for any news of the attack.

If you want to get really pedantic it says "these ships" - i.e. the ones gathered outside the galaxy waiting to jump to Sullust. On the whole, I think the theory that the novel describes a preliminary staging point, from whence various forces would disperse to their jumping off points for the actual attack (such as Sullust) fits best.

TC Pilot wrote:The Rebellion liked to make goodwill gestures that served little or no military value, if not the opposite. For example, in the ANH novelization, many Rebel leaders from across the galaxy actually gathered at Yavin to be present for the battle. Considering they brought such sterling warships as the "medical frigate" to the engagement, it's hardly surprising the Rebels would bring other near-useless military assets to the battle. And while not explicitely confirming that the entire Rebel Alliance was present, an entire campaign of TIE Fighter is spent making sure the Rebels commit their full force.

Yet Mon Mothma was not apparently present at Yavin. Frankly, I doubt she was pressent at Endor either. and a medical ship is hardly a useless ship to bring on a raid, where you might suffer casualties. Besides, the Nebulon B is hardly a poor combat ship for its size, from what I've heard. Also, bear in mind that the Alliance apparently expected Endor to be more of a raid than an all-out fleet engagement.

Of course, one could simply point to "waited tensely in these ships for instructions" to say that it's highly likely that, yes, they were all committed to Endor.

Well if I understand canon policy correctly, if its not explicitely overruled by something higher on the ladder (like the novelizations), its canon. Theirfor, unless the novel or another G canon source states that every Rebel and their entire fleet was at Endor, other, lower canon sources that say otherwise still count.

Thus, their was a Rebel task force at Kuat, and perhaps defenses at Calimari as well.

Didn't the DESB refer to the Endor fleet as the Rebel Command Fleet? Sounds strange to give the whole navy an alternate name, more fitting for a specific force within a larger structure.

TC Pilot wrote:The only problem I have with that is, why are they there in the first place, then? But yeah, you have a valid point.

I wonder what the novel says about the fleet that jumped to hyperspace for the battle. Could be useful.

Indeed it could. I have a vauge recolection that Lando reflects on how risky it is to have the Rebels all gather in one place, but I can't recall weather the quote is specific enough to rule out rebel forces being elsewhere as well. I would check, but I remembered that our local library will be closed for New Year's. So I will have to wait until the second at the soonest to check up on this. If anyone has the novelization and cares to check before then, it would be greatly appreciated.

In any case, the bulk of the Rebellion's power does seem to have been at Endor. The question is weather the novelization precludes the Rebellion having any forces elsewhere at the same time. I would like to believe that the entire Rebellion doesn't have to be crippled by one unfortunate depiction in the novelization. After all, its not just a question of the Rebellion's size (the arguments against a small and unpopular rebellion rest more on the argument that most of the Alliance's support was not part of the Rebellion propper, but rather from affiliated governments and organizations). Its also a question of weather the Alliance is tactically and strategically moronic, and weather other EU sources are actually overruled by the novelization.

Another passage from the novelisation - Lando's thoughts immediately before the jump to Endor.

They were doing what a guerilla force must never do: engage the enemy like a traditional army. The Imperial army, fighting the Rebellion's guerilla war, was always losing - unless it won. The Rebels, by contrast, were always winning - unless they lost. And now, here was the most dangerous situation - the Alliance drawn into the open, to fight on the Empire's terms: if the Rebels lost this battle, they lost the war.

While still a bit vague, it seems to imply that, at the very least, the vast majority of the Rebellion's strength was present at the battle, to the extent that it would be unable to continue their campaign if they lost.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Yet Mon Mothma was not apparently present at Yavin.

Probably not. But in the novel, Dodonna takes time out to introduce several anonymous Rebel leaders, people who chose to "stand with us at this critical hour" (or something like that) when it wouldn't make a bit of difference to the outcome of the battle.

Well if I understand canon policy correctly, if its not explicitely overruled by something higher on the ladder (like the novelizations), its canon. Theirfor, unless the novel or another G canon source states that every Rebel and their entire fleet was at Endor, other, lower canon sources that say otherwise still count.

Quite right.

Thus, their was a Rebel task force at Kuat, and perhaps defenses at Calimari as well.

The Kuat forces I can't comment on, but I've suggested on at least one occassion that, while the Rebels were at Endor, that doesn't neccesarily mean Mon Calamari was defenseless, but rather that it was left to local defense forces (after all, the people of Mon Cal can hardly be counted as Rebels. The whole world wouldn't be depopulated just to go to this meeting, after all).

TC Pilot wrote: Probably not. But in the novel, Dodonna takes time out to introduce several anonymous Rebel leaders, people who chose to "stand with us at this critical hour" (or something like that) when it wouldn't make a bit of difference to the outcome of the battle.

You forgot something. The novel events occured when the Rebels had just obtained the Death Star plans, BEFORE the Rebels knew the Death Star was attacking Yavin. It could very well be construed as the senators having gathered to support the Rebellion plan to destroy the Death Star, but the senators were later caught onsite when the Death Star showed up.

The Kuat forces I can't comment on, but I've suggested on at least one occassion that, while the Rebels were at Endor, that doesn't neccesarily mean Mon Calamari was defenseless, but rather that it was left to local defense forces (after all, the people of Mon Cal can hardly be counted as Rebels. The whole world wouldn't be depopulated just to go to this meeting, after all).

The quote is probably just hyperbole.......

Isn't this irrelevant? If the problem is that the observed fleet is way, way too small, saying they left an equal number (or even ten times as many) of ships behind doesn't 'fix' it, the alliance is still hideously small. I don't really see why this is a problem, but saying 'some other ships weren't there' isn't helping unless we're talking thousands or more, surely?

Stark wrote:Isn't this irrelevant? If the problem is that the observed fleet is way, way too small, saying they left an equal number (or even ten times as many) of ships behind doesn't 'fix' it, the alliance is still hideously small. I don't really see why this is a problem, but saying 'some other ships weren't there' isn't helping unless we're talking thousands or more, surely?

It doesn't make a huge difference in terms of fire power or numbers relative to the size of the Galaxy, no. But we work with what we have, and in any case, it makes the Rebels less retarded if they didn't bring every single ground soldier and logistical support unit to the battle. Also, I'm tired of hearing claims that the entire Rebellion was at Endor when the evidence does not nessissarily support that and that being the case would defy logic and probabillity. Its simply a question of recognizing the facts based on current canon policy.

PainRack wrote:You forgot something. The novel events occured when the Rebels had just obtained the Death Star plans, BEFORE the Rebels knew the Death Star was attacking Yavin. It could very well be construed as the senators having gathered to support the Rebellion plan to destroy the Death Star, but the senators were later caught onsite when the Death Star showed up.

I managed to find the quote: "You all know these people," he [General Dodonna] intoned with quiet power. "They are the Senators and Generals whose worlds have given us support, whether open or covert. They have come to be with us in what may well prove to be the decisive moment."

I'm fairly certain that comes from the briefing scene, and I'm quite confident that they were well aware that the Death Star was on its way. Unless he was simply lying, it seems pretty straightforward that they either came, or chose to stay, to see the battle through.

The quote is probably just hyperbole.......

You mean "Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions"?

Why would civilians be on a military starship? This isn't Star Trek TNG, is it?

Also, in the SW:CL, the Emperor's galactic holomap show systems and planets that are to be subjugated or punished, so the Rebellion wouldn't be totally gone with the fleet at Endor.

VT-16 wrote:Why would civilians be on a military starship? This isn't Star Trek TNG, is it?

Maybe refugees from the Empire that the Alliance was protecting? Or is "civillian" just short for non-combatant here? After all, the Alliance would have had a lot of maintenence and support personel behind the actual combat units. Maybe "civillian" means not officially part of the Alliance military (though much of this is of course pure speculation).

Also, in the SW:CL, the Emperor's galactic holomap show systems and planets that are to be subjugated or punished, so the Rebellion wouldn't be totally gone with the fleet at Endor.

We know they had at least covert support from the Calimari, and from elements of Corellean and Bothawui. These are fairly major worlds, and while they migh have been giving support, apparently were not counted in the official Rebel Alliance (TC Pilot has already pointed out that they would hardly depopulate Mon Calimari for this meeting). Unless of course it turns out that their's a canon quote that says that Mon Calimari was an official Alliance member, in which case I may have to just start ignoring Lucasfilm's canon policy completely.

Um, GATORW had Rebel groups from all over the galaxy flock to the Calamari sector. The Calamari had a portion of their defense fleet (anti-Imperial fleet, really) join the Alliance fleet, keeping the rest at home.

VT-16 wrote:Um, GATORW had Rebel groups from all over the galaxy flock to the Calamari sector. The Calamari had a portion of their defense fleet (anti-Imperial fleet, really) join the Alliance fleet, keeping the rest at home.

Nice. Does this source explicitely say, then, that Calimari was not a part of the official Alliance, but mearly a state sponsor?

Incidentally, what is GATORW? Its good to know what your sources are, after all.

In ROTJ (film), Mon Mothma makes the comment that the Imperial fleet is "spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us." The implication is that the Rebels have forces sufficient to require the attention of the Imperial fleet (rather than the army, spec. forces, etc.) on a galactic scale, and the armada assembled at Sullust (not outside the galaxy, as the novelization suggests) is a task force intended specifically for the attack on DS2.

Movie > Novel, end of discussion. That's my interpretation and two cents, anyway.

Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds. I think it might be in the glossary on this forum somewhere. The other similar book is CATCW (Coruscant and the Core Worlds).

Since Palpatine stood ready to crush Mon Calamari once "Superweapon no#6553347" was finished, I'd say they'd might as well fully enlist in the RA. One of the RPG books mention a Calamari colony world being destroyed by the Empire in the sector, so they'd have some cause for keeping fleets in there at all times.