StarDestroyer.Net BBS

When Yoda went into hiding at the end of ROTS what was his plan? We dont see him arriving at Degobah so we dont know if he took a ship there or had the Senator drop him off there. So we do not know if Yoda had a means to get off the planet. I assume the overal plan was for Obiwan to watchover Luke in person and Leia through the media and when they grew to the right age he would collect them and the three of them would go to Degobach for training.

But in ANH its mentioned that Obiwan wanted to give Luke the lightsaber years earlier but backed down just from Uncle Owens ranting. Which does not make sense. Giving a kid a lightsaber would draw way too much attention to him, or he might get himself killed playing with it. But if Obiwan wanted to give it to him to begin Luke's training then I dont see the mere complaints of Uncle Owen stopping him. He could just take Luke and leave with him.

Then there is the training on Degobah by Luke under Yoda. We know more from the novelization that Yoda trained him heavily in the use of his lightsaber, and added better control to his telekinetic abilities. The telekinetic I am assuming Luke taught to himself. We never see Obiwan show him or even demonstrate in Luke's presence how to move things with the Force. Yet in the beginning of ESB we see Luke display a basic telekinetic ability.

But we do not see or get the impression that Luke is trained to deal with Force Lightning. In fact it appears that there is no mention of Palpatine being a sith lord or the power that title represents. When Luke defeats Vader in ROTJ he then throws aside his saber and tells Palpatine that "you have lost" to me this suggests that Luke felt that Vader was the muscle and Palpatine was the brains. Further when Palpatine released Lukes cuffs there is a look of surprise on Luke's face that sys he had no idea that Palpatine had any force abilities at all.

One could suggest that Yoda's training was cut short, but when Luke returned at the beginning of ROTJ he is told by Yoda that his training is done. That is a great pat on the back for Luke but I bet at the end of the movie he was wishing that Yoda had mentioned the whole throwing lightning out of your fingertips trick so Luke could be ready to defend against it.

All of this suggests to me that Obiwan opened the door for Luke and gave him the most basic lightsaber knowledge. Yoda expanded that knowledge, expanded Luke's self-taught telekinetic ability, and taught him the ability to enhance his muscles, force jump, etc. Oh and Yoda taught him how to see the past and future through the force which seems like a big mistake. If he had not taught that they Luke wouldnt have run off early.

Luke then self-trained on how to telekinetic a bit, force choke (I just dont see Yoda teaching this), and under stress self-tech how to deflect force lightning using the force alone (ROTJ novelization) though under the stress of attack he is not able to deflect it enough and Palpatine just ramped up the power.

Which goes back to my main question. What was Yoda's plan? No attempt was ever made to bring Leia, which would have been easy for Luke to do if he was just told by Obiwan's ghost. Worse none of the important information on how dangerous Palpatine was given to Luke. If Luke had chopped off Vaders leg instead of hand then Luke would have died to Palpatine. The DS2 would have probably still been destroyed but no Jedi would have seriously screwed the New Republic.

Bilbo wrote:When Yoda went into hiding at the end of ROTS what was his plan? We dont see him arriving at Degobah so we dont know if he took a ship there or had the Senator drop him off there. So we do not know if Yoda had a means to get off the planet. I assume the overal plan was for Obiwan to watchover Luke in person and Leia through the media and when they grew to the right age he would collect them and the three of them would go to Degobach for training.

Apparently, according to RotS comic, Yoda used the Wookiee escape pod to get to Dagobah.

But in ANH its mentioned that Obiwan wanted to give Luke the lightsaber years earlier but backed down just from Uncle Owens ranting. Which does not make sense. Giving a kid a lightsaber would draw way too much attention to him, or he might get himself killed playing with it. But if Obiwan wanted to give it to him to begin Luke's training then I dont see the mere complaints of Uncle Owen stopping him. He could just take Luke and leave with him.

Besides the fact that the Lars household has been Luke's home from his infancy and that Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are his parent figures while "crazy old Ben" is just some hermit who's not too big on Uncle Owen's friend list? Just taking Luke away from his family could have done some bad things to Luke himself and exactly would Obi-Wan take Luke away? By force? Thus coming very close to the dark side?

Even when Luke didn't want to come with Obi-Wan to Alderaan, the old Jedi didn't try to force the issue. He respected Luke's right to make a choice for himself.

Then there is the training on Degobah by Luke under Yoda. We know more from the novelization that Yoda trained him heavily in the use of his lightsaber, and added better control to his telekinetic abilities. The telekinetic I am assuming Luke taught to himself. We never see Obiwan show him or even demonstrate in Luke's presence how to move things with the Force. Yet in the beginning of ESB we see Luke display a basic telekinetic ability.

What is your point?

But we do not see or get the impression that Luke is trained to deal with Force Lightning. In fact it appears that there is no mention of Palpatine being a sith lord or the power that title represents. When Luke defeats Vader in ROTJ he then throws aside his saber and tells Palpatine that "you have lost" to me this suggests that Luke felt that Vader was the muscle and Palpatine was the brains. Further when Palpatine released Lukes cuffs there is a look of surprise on Luke's face that sys he had no idea that Palpatine had any force abilities at all.

One could suggest that Yoda's training was cut short, but when Luke returned at the beginning of ROTJ he is told by Yoda that his training is done. That is a great pat on the back for Luke but I bet at the end of the movie he was wishing that Yoda had mentioned the whole throwing lightning out of your fingertips trick so Luke could be ready to defend against it.

The ONLY Jedi Master who we have seen in the movies to deflect Force lightning with his bare hands is Master Yoda, who has had incredibly long lifetime to develop his skills. Even Mace Windu used his lightsaber to deflect Palpatine's assault. Luke's gesture was foolish from that point of view, yes, but it simply underlined his decision to not use violence to kill Vader. And the RotJ novelization notes that Luke in fact was able to re-direct some of Palpatine's Force lightning, until the Emperor intensified his attack. Luke's training, for all intents and purposes, was over. He was ready to be a Jedi Knight. He could fight a powerful Sith Lord to a stand-still and refuse the temptation of the dark side.

All of this suggests to me that Obiwan opened the door for Luke and gave him the most basic lightsaber knowledge. Yoda expanded that knowledge, expanded Luke's self-taught telekinetic ability, and taught him the ability to enhance his muscles, force jump, etc. Oh and Yoda taught him how to see the past and future through the force which seems like a big mistake. If he had not taught that they Luke wouldnt have run off early.

And to forget an important part of Jedi training? To see the past and the future is important for a Jedi and his understanding of the Force. And visions do occur even without the Force-user's consent (case in point, Anakin Skywalker). If the Jedi can exert even some control over those visions, he is better prepared to deal with them.

Luke then self-trained on how to telekinetic a bit, force choke (I just dont see Yoda teaching this), and under stress self-tech how to deflect force lightning using the force alone (ROTJ novelization) though under the stress of attack he is not able to deflect it enough and Palpatine just ramped up the power.

As noted above, Luke was, for a short time, able to deflect some of Palpatine's attack. And Force lightning is not something that every opponent will throw around willy-nilly. It is likely that Yoda figured that Luke's education with deflection (using a lightsaber) was enough.

Which goes back to my main question. What was Yoda's plan? No attempt was ever made to bring Leia, which would have been easy for Luke to do if he was just told by Obiwan's ghost. Worse none of the important information on how dangerous Palpatine was given to Luke. If Luke had chopped off Vaders leg instead of hand then Luke would have died to Palpatine. The DS2 would have probably still been destroyed but no Jedi would have seriously screwed the New Republic.

Both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda stressed over and over again how dangerous the Sith Lords were. And do you SERIOUSLY think that Leia Organa, who has no idea whatsoever that she has the ability to manipulate the Force, would heed the call of some apparition? And that she, an important Rebel leader, would just abandon the Alliance to go to seek some mystical Jedi Master in the remote corner of the galaxy that has never interested anyone?

Yoda's plan was to ensure that Skywalker's heir could defeat Vader and just possibly bring balance to the Force, as the prophecy had foretold. Luke fit the bill quite nicely, since he showed Force potential (which Leia didn't). Yoda and Kenobi wanted Luke to defeat Vader and the Emperor (and quite likely to re-start the Jedi tradition). That was their plan. Obi-Wan was supposed to be the teacher, until he sacrificed himself; then Yoda had to do so. Leia was, as cold as it is to say, a backup.

Bilbo wrote:When Yoda went into hiding at the end of ROTS what was his plan? We dont see him arriving at Degobah so we dont know if he took a ship there or had the Senator drop him off there. So we do not know if Yoda had a means to get off the planet. I assume the overal plan was for Obiwan to watchover Luke in person and Leia through the media and when they grew to the right age he would collect them and the three of them would go to Degobach for training.

I doubt any plan of his involved Leia unless Luke died or turned to the dark side. That's was why she "remained safely anonymous." She was a contingency only, IMO.

Bilbo wrote:But in ANH its mentioned that Obiwan wanted to give Luke the lightsaber years earlier but backed down just from Uncle Owens ranting. Which does not make sense. Giving a kid a lightsaber would draw way too much attention to him, or he might get himself killed playing with it. But if Obiwan wanted to give it to him to begin Luke's training then I dont see the mere complaints of Uncle Owen stopping him. He could just take Luke and leave with him.

Obi-wan doesn't strike me as the kidnapper type. He probably abided by Owen's wishes despite his disagreement with them. After all, he probably figured, as Beru said, Luke couldn't stay there forever.

Bilbo wrote:But we do not see or get the impression that Luke is trained to deal with Force Lightning.

He didn't need to be. A lightsaber can deflect Force lightning as well as blaster fire.

Bilbo wrote:Further when Palpatine released Lukes cuffs there is a look of surprise on Luke's face that sys he had no idea that Palpatine had any force abilities at all.

"Luke, you can destroy the emperor. He has foreseen this."

It should have come as no surprise to Luke that Palpatine had Force abilities.

Bilbo wrote:One could suggest that Yoda's training was cut short, but when Luke returned at the beginning of ROTJ he is told by Yoda that his training is done.

"Unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training."

It seems to me that Luke completed his training by facing Vader the first time, not when he was still on Dagobah.

Bilbo wrote:That is a great pat on the back for Luke but I bet at the end of the movie he was wishing that Yoda had mentioned the whole throwing lightning out of your fingertips trick so Luke could be ready to defend against it.

Was Obi-wan trained to deal with it? Prior to his encounter with Count Dooku, when was the last time a Jedi had dealt with Force lightning at all?

Bilbo wrote:Worse none of the important information on how dangerous Palpatine was given to Luke.

"Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor or suffer your father's fate you will."

That sounds like quite a warning to me.

Bilbo wrote:The DS2 would have probably still been destroyed but no Jedi would have seriously screwed the New Republic.

Until Kyle Katarn showed up.

Bilbo wrote:When Yoda went into hiding at the end of ROTS what was his plan? We dont see him arriving at Degobah so we dont know if he took a ship there or had the Senator drop him off there. So we do not know if Yoda had a means to get off the planet. I assume the overal plan was for Obiwan to watchover Luke in person and Leia through the media and when they grew to the right age he would collect them and the three of them would go to Degobach for training.

I thought Yoda got their via escape pod (perhaps carried en route by Senator Organa's ship), then used parts from the pod in the construction of his house. I can't remember where I heard it, but if so I doubt he had a way off world imediately at hand. However, its possible he could have communicated to Obi-wan at a distance to come pick him up if need be.

But in ANH its mentioned that Obiwan wanted to give Luke the lightsaber years earlier but backed down just from Uncle Owens ranting. Which does not make sense. Giving a kid a lightsaber would draw way too much attention to him, or he might get himself killed playing with it. But if Obiwan wanted to give it to him to begin Luke's training then I dont see the mere complaints of Uncle Owen stopping him. He could just take Luke and leave with him.

It seems that Obi-wan and Yoda changed their outlook on the Jedi policy of taking kids from their familly shortly after birth. Doesn't the ROTS novelization reveal that Yoda had a revellation while fighting Sideous that the Order had stagnated under his leadership? Perhaps bowing to Owen's wishes was a reflection of this policy. Or perhaps they were following the Will of the Force.

Then there is the training on Degobah by Luke under Yoda. We know more from the novelization that Yoda trained him heavily in the use of his lightsaber, and added better control to his telekinetic abilities. The telekinetic I am assuming Luke taught to himself. We never see Obiwan show him or even demonstrate in Luke's presence how to move things with the Force. Yet in the beginning of ESB we see Luke display a basic telekinetic ability.

Luke was the son of the Chosen One. It seems reasonable to believe that, once he was aware of the Force, he might have been able to teach himself some tricks during the three years between Episodes 4 and 5, does it not? Also, wasn't Kenobi's ghost in contact with him during this period?

[/quote]But we do not see or get the impression that Luke is trained to deal with Force Lightning. In fact it appears that there is no mention of Palpatine being a sith lord or the power that title represents. When Luke defeats Vader in ROTJ he then throws aside his saber and tells Palpatine that "you have lost" to me this suggests that Luke felt that Vader was the muscle and Palpatine was the brains. Further when Palpatine released Lukes cuffs there is a look of surprise on Luke's face that sys he had no idea that Palpatine had any force abilities at all.[/quote]

Or perhaps surprise that he released the cuffs? That said, Luke's apparent iggnorence of Sith lightning attacks suggests a major and difficult to explain gap in his training. As for the "you have lost" line, wasn't that reffering to having failed to turn Luke?

One could suggest that Yoda's training was cut short, but when Luke returned at the beginning of ROTJ he is told by Yoda that his training is done. That is a great pat on the back for Luke but I bet at the end of the movie he was wishing that Yoda had mentioned the whole throwing lightning out of your fingertips trick so Luke could be ready to defend against it.

Before dueling Vader at Bespin, Luke might not have advanced far enough in his training to learn about things like Sith lightning. When he returned, Yoda didn't have much time left to tell him about it, given he was old and dying. You'd think Kenobi's ghost would have mentioned it or something. Like just telling Luke what the lighting is and how to block it with his lightsaber.

Which goes back to my main question. What was Yoda's plan? No attempt was ever made to bring Leia, which would have been easy for Luke to do if he was just told by Obiwan's ghost. Worse none of the important information on how dangerous Palpatine was given to Luke. If Luke had chopped off Vaders leg instead of hand then Luke would have died to Palpatine. The DS2 would have probably still been destroyed but no Jedi would have seriously screwed the New Republic.

Well, I believe others have already pointed out warnings Luke recieved about Palpatine. However, the extent of his knowledge is unclear. As to why Leia wasn't brought, perhaps it was a combination of being too old, being a polititian, and being important to the Alliance war effort? However, Yoda seemed to entertain the idea of training her if Luke failed, and suggested to Luke that he should train her on his death bed.

As to what Yoda's plan was, I think the idea was to let Luke and Leia grow up in safety with normal families (and hope they turn out better adjusted than Anakin), then train one or both when they were old enough. Owen's objections delayed Luke's training. I'm not sure why Leia wasn't trained. Maybe Yoda just felt she was "too old" or somesuch (note Obi-wan had to convince him not to dismiss Luke the same way).

Quick response:
Yoda stays in hiding until Luke is ready. Refocus and rethink the Jedi and the Order with the help of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn.
Obi-Wan watches over Luke until he is ready and the time is right to use him as a weapon against Vader and the Emperor.
Leia is kept in reserve, as a last resort.
Luke will usher in a new breed of Jedi.

Galvatron wrote:

Bilbo wrote:But we do not see or get the impression that Luke is trained to deal with Force Lightning.

He didn't need to be. A lightsaber can deflect Force lightning as well as blaster fire.

But Luke just saw an old man without a weapon and threw aside his weapon to show his contempt for the Emperor as a threat. If he had been told that Palpatine was more powerful than Vader and could throw Force Lightning he would have never disarmed himself the way he did.

havokeff wrote:Quick response:
Yoda stays in hiding until Luke is ready. Refocus and rethink the Jedi and the Order with the help of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn.
Obi-Wan watches over Luke until he is ready and the time is right to use him as a weapon against Vader and the Emperor.
Leia is kept in reserve, as a last resort.
Luke will usher in a new breed of Jedi.

I guess I am just confused over why none of that training included "watch out the old crippled guy kicked Yoda's ass in a fight once and can throw lightning from his fingertips."

Galvatron wrote:

Bilbo wrote:When Yoda went into hiding at the end of ROTS what was his plan? We dont see him arriving at Degobah so we dont know if he took a ship there or had the Senator drop him off there. So we do not know if Yoda had a means to get off the planet. I assume the overal plan was for Obiwan to watchover Luke in person and Leia through the media and when they grew to the right age he would collect them and the three of them would go to Degobach for training.

I doubt any plan of his involved Leia unless Luke died or turned to the dark side. That's was why she "remained safely anonymous." She was a contingency only, IMO.

Bilbo wrote:But in ANH its mentioned that Obiwan wanted to give Luke the lightsaber years earlier but backed down just from Uncle Owens ranting. Which does not make sense. Giving a kid a lightsaber would draw way too much attention to him, or he might get himself killed playing with it. But if Obiwan wanted to give it to him to begin Luke's training then I dont see the mere complaints of Uncle Owen stopping him. He could just take Luke and leave with him.

Obi-wan doesn't strike me as the kidnapper type. He probably abided by Owen's wishes despite his disagreement with them. After all, he probably figured, as Beru said, Luke couldn't stay there forever.

Bilbo wrote:But we do not see or get the impression that Luke is trained to deal with Force Lightning.

He didn't need to be. A lightsaber can deflect Force lightning as well as blaster fire.

Bilbo wrote:Further when Palpatine released Lukes cuffs there is a look of surprise on Luke's face that sys he had no idea that Palpatine had any force abilities at all.

"Luke, you can destroy the emperor. He has foreseen this."

It should have come as no surprise to Luke that Palpatine had Force abilities.

Bilbo wrote:One could suggest that Yoda's training was cut short, but when Luke returned at the beginning of ROTJ he is told by Yoda that his training is done.

"Unfortunate that you rushed to face him. That incomplete was your training."

It seems to me that Luke completed his training by facing Vader the first time, not when he was still on Dagobah.

Bilbo wrote:That is a great pat on the back for Luke but I bet at the end of the movie he was wishing that Yoda had mentioned the whole throwing lightning out of your fingertips trick so Luke could be ready to defend against it.

Was Obi-wan trained to deal with it? Prior to his encounter with Count Dooku, when was the last time a Jedi had dealt with Force lightning at all?

Bilbo wrote:Worse none of the important information on how dangerous Palpatine was given to Luke.

"Do not underestimate the powers of the emperor or suffer your father's fate you will."

That sounds like quite a warning to me.

Bilbo wrote:The DS2 would have probably still been destroyed but no Jedi would have seriously screwed the New Republic.

Until Kyle Katarn showed up.

Yes Leia could have been left in reserve but once Obiwan was dead Yoda had to have known his time for training was limited. Since he so conveniently died when he did I am guessing he was living on borrowed time and somehow using the Force to stay alive till he had the last conversation with Luke. So if Luke had failed there would have been no one to train Leia around.

Vader tells Luke this but does Luke believe him? If Palpatine had such a vision why would he ever tell Vader.

Obiwan probably never faced Force Lightning before that point. But he had probably at least read about it and I am sure its good Jedi training that when something dangerous comes at you the lightsaber should go inbetween.

I had forgotten the warning from Obiwan. Its a pretty nebulous one though.

Another thing comes to mind. Force Lightning is a sith ability not a Jedi one. Would Obiwan or Yoda know that Vader was unable to use Force Lightning, we know from the statement of Lucas, but how would they? Palpatine was willing to train Dooku or Dooku figured it out himself so its not a power exclusive to Palpatine.

By not telling Luke about Force Lightning for all they knew 2 minutes after meeting Vader he could have been cooked by it.

Galvatron wrote:

Bilbo wrote:The DS2 would have probably still been destroyed but no Jedi would have seriously screwed the New Republic.

Until Kyle Katarn showed up.

well said, god knows CALLISTA wasn't coming to the rescue.

Themightytom wrote:

Galvatron wrote:

Bilbo wrote:The DS2 would have probably still been destroyed but no Jedi would have seriously screwed the New Republic.

Until Kyle Katarn showed up.

well said, god knows CALLISTA wasn't coming to the rescue.

I played the game a long time ago. I have never read anything book wise that included him. Could Katarn have taken the place of Luke in Dark Empire and defeated the Emperor?

Bilbo wrote:But Luke just saw an old man without a weapon and threw aside his weapon to show his contempt for the Emperor as a threat. If he had been told that Palpatine was more powerful than Vader and could throw Force Lightning he would have never disarmed himself the way he did.

"Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor. Or suffer your father's fate you shall."
-Yoda

Luke's gambit was as much about redeeming Vader as anything else. That's why he turned himself in and otherwise afterall.

Bilbo wrote: But Luke just saw an old man without a weapon and threw aside his weapon to show his contempt for the Emperor as a threat. If he had been told that Palpatine was more powerful than Vader and could throw Force Lightning he would have never disarmed himself the way he did.

That's not why he threw his saber aside.
He did in defiance of the Emperor, and the Dakside.
He was basically saying

"I beat Vader without falling to the darkside.
It's over. I won, you lost."

He knew Palpatine was powerful.
Everyone made it clear.
Yoda, Obi-wan, Vader
Hell, Vader, the most feared man in the galaxy,
bows before him and calls him master.

Bilbo wrote:

havokeff wrote:Quick response:
Yoda stays in hiding until Luke is ready. Refocus and rethink the Jedi and the Order with the help of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn.
Obi-Wan watches over Luke until he is ready and the time is right to use him as a weapon against Vader and the Emperor.
Leia is kept in reserve, as a last resort.
Luke will usher in a new breed of Jedi.

I guess I am just confused over why none of that training included "watch out the old crippled guy kicked Yoda's ass in a fight once and can throw lightning from his fingertips."

I'll expand on my original post when I have more time tonight...

Bilbo
I don't think it was either Yoda or Obi-Wan's intention to have Luke confront Palpatine. In fact they stressed that Luke must confront Vader. Both were very aware of Anakin's place in the prophecy of the Chosen One, and only needed Luke to defeat Vader in order to set in motion their ultimate goal of Vader rising against his Master.

havokeff wrote:

Bilbo wrote:

havokeff wrote:Quick response:
Yoda stays in hiding until Luke is ready. Refocus and rethink the Jedi and the Order with the help of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn.
Obi-Wan watches over Luke until he is ready and the time is right to use him as a weapon against Vader and the Emperor.
Leia is kept in reserve, as a last resort.
Luke will usher in a new breed of Jedi.

I guess I am just confused over why none of that training included "watch out the old crippled guy kicked Yoda's ass in a fight once and can throw lightning from his fingertips."

I'll expand on my original post when I have more time tonight...

Bilbo
I don't think it was either Yoda or Obi-Wan's intention to have Luke confront Palpatine. In fact they stressed that Luke must confront Vader. Both were very aware of Anakin's place in the prophecy of the Chosen One, and only needed Luke to defeat Vader in order to set in motion their ultimate goal of Vader rising against his Master.

Just seems damn dangerous to send him out without a full understanding of what he might be facing. And like I said in another post. How did Obiwan an Yoda know that Vader did not also possess force lightning?

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:

Bilbo wrote: But Luke just saw an old man without a weapon and threw aside his weapon to show his contempt for the Emperor as a threat. If he had been told that Palpatine was more powerful than Vader and could throw Force Lightning he would have never disarmed himself the way he did.

That's not why he threw his saber aside.
He did in defiance of the Emperor, and the Dakside.
He was basically saying

"I beat Vader without falling to the darkside.
It's over. I won, you lost."

He knew Palpatine was powerful.
Everyone made it clear.
Yoda, Obi-wan, Vader
Hell, Vader, the most feared man in the galaxy,
bows before him and calls him master.

Yes. Best scene in all the movies IMO. Also the true Return of the Jedi, as Luke had passed his final trial, and even Palpatine acknowledged his status.

Bilbo wrote:Just seems damn dangerous to send him out without a full understanding of what he might be facing. And like I said in another post. How did Obiwan an Yoda know that Vader did not also possess force lightning?

Well, there is the whole more machine than man bit. Considering that Obi-wan left Vader to die on Mustafar, sans-limbs, only to learn of Vader's sudden appearance as the Emperor's armored enforcer, it probably wasn't to hard to guess that the armor is in fact Vader's life support, and Force Lightning would probably fry that.

Bilbo wrote: I played the game a long time ago. I have never read anything book wise that included him. Could Katarn have taken the place of Luke in Dark Empire and defeated the Emperor?

Yes.

Katarn was still very in tune with the Force and the Valley of the Jedi around the time of Dark Empire. If he'd come face to face with the Emperor, he would have found a way to escape if he couldn't defeat him, take off to the valley, and power up, then proceed to kick the Emperor's ass.

Case in point, that's what he did after he turned his back on the Force and then ran into Desann. 'Okay, I can't beat this guy, time to go power up'.

Also, Katarn is one of a very, very, very rare breed of Jedi. Apparently, he can use Force Lightning without it being Dark Side. How that works, I have no idea.

Bilbo wrote: But Luke just saw an old man without a weapon and threw aside his weapon to show his contempt for the Emperor as a threat. If he had been told that Palpatine was more powerful than Vader and could throw Force Lightning he would have never disarmed himself the way he did.

It wasn't that he saw Palpatine as not a threat. He knew Palpatine was a threat.

It was about redeeming Vader, not defeating Palpatine. Especially with the PT, it is clear Luke Skywalker did what Vader couldn't twenty years ago. Seeing his son make the decision that he, Anakin, should have but didn't have the courage to make, turned Darth Vader back.

Luke Skywalker wasn't there to defeat Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine with pure combat skills, though perhaps Obi Wan may have thought so (but I doubt it). Luke Skywalker was there to redeem Vader and to redeem the Light Side of the Force and the Jedi by rejecting the Dark Side.

"You have failed, you Highness." Was the ultimate climax of a battle raging for twenty years. The two greatest Force users of two consecutive generations made the opposite choice when confronted with the same question, and upon seeing that it was possible to sacrafice for the right, for good, Anakin saw that his choice was wrong. Anakin was willing to kill and corrupt anything he had to, to save what he wanted. Luke was willing to sacrifice himself to save what he wanted. When he did that, the sham, the house of cards Anakin built to justify his position came crumbling down, probably didn't hurt that the last bits of what was Padme were there in Luke too.

Defeating Palpatine wasn't Luke's job, that was Anakin's. Luke's job was to redeem Vader, so Vader could fulfill his destiny.

Solauren wrote:Yes.

Katarn was still very in tune with the Force and the Valley of the Jedi around the time of Dark Empire. If he'd come face to face with the Emperor, he would have found a way to escape if he couldn't defeat him, take off to the valley, and power up, then proceed to kick the Emperor's ass.

Case in point, that's what he did after he turned his back on the Force and then ran into Desann. 'Okay, I can't beat this guy, time to go power up'.

Also, Katarn is one of a very, very, very rare breed of Jedi. Apparently, he can use Force Lightning without it being Dark Side. How that works, I have no idea.

The only thing is whether or not Katarn would ever be in a position to confront the Emperor in the first place. Palpatine only kidnapped Luke because of he was the son of Skywalker. I don't think Katarn is high profile enough to attract attention.

AFAIK, Katarn actually does channel the Dark Side when the situation calls for it, but he takes care to ensure he doesn't actually get corrupted by its influence.

Knife wrote:Defeating Palpatine wasn't Luke's job, that was Anakin's. Luke's job was to redeem Vader, so Vader could fulfill his destiny.

Excellent post. It's an interesting thing, in that none of the participants really saw it in terms of its whole significance except Anakin. Obi-wan believed that Vader was unredeemable (I don't know what Yoda's thoughts were on the matter).

As for the OP - I don't think Obi-wan and Yoda really had a plan, other than making sure that the Skywalker children were safe growing up, and would have someone to train them IF the Force brought them to them (Yoda and Obi-wan, who obviously believed that the Force would). The ROTS novelization seemed to be clear on that point, particularly with Yoda - that they would put the Force in the driver's seat, instead of trying to force them into a path that hadn't worked.

Guardsman Bass wrote:

Knife wrote:Defeating Palpatine wasn't Luke's job, that was Anakin's. Luke's job was to redeem Vader, so Vader could fulfill his destiny.

Excellent post. It's an interesting thing, in that none of the participants really saw it in terms of its whole significance except Anakin. Obi-wan believed that Vader was unredeemable (I don't know what Yoda's thoughts were on the matter).

As for the OP - I don't think Obi-wan and Yoda really had a plan, other than making sure that the Skywalker children were safe growing up, and would have someone to train them IF the Force brought them to them (Yoda and Obi-wan, who obviously believed that the Force would). The ROTS novelization seemed to be clear on that point, particularly with Yoda - that they would put the Force in the driver's seat, instead of trying to force them into a path that hadn't worked.

Considering Yoda's musings on Vader during Episode III ("The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader.") I don't think that he believed Anakin/Vader to be redeemeable. Although we can't know for sure, since the issue was never adequately brought up between luke and Yoda; between Obi-Wan and Luke, yes.

I really don't think Yoda and Obi had a plan, in general, at the time of RotS.

At the time of ROTS? Plans for Luke, no. Plans to preserve their wisdom and the Jedi Order and it's legacy, yes. That was why Yoda instructed Obi-Wan how to communicate with Qui-Gon, to expand their own power and knowledge and to be able to carry it with them and still be able to pass it on if something were to happen. Also why they kept Luke and Leia in hiding, so that they would have something to build on when the time was right.

Tiriol wrote:Considering Yoda's musings on Vader during Episode III ("The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader.") I don't think that he believed Anakin/Vader to be redeemeable. Although we can't know for sure, since the issue was never adequately brought up between luke and Yoda; between Obi-Wan and Luke, yes.

I would disagree with this. Yoda and Obi-Wan spent the next 20 years meditating and thinking on the situation and communing with Qui-Gon. If they didn't have a sense that Vader could be redeemed, I don't think they would have even bothered with training Luke. Assuming of course that they still believed in the Prophecy of the Chosen one, which I think is highly probable since Qui-Gon strongly believed in it.

Anakin will bring balance to the Force, at this point it was going to be by being redeemed by his son and destroying the Sith, instead of at the point in ROTS, where he killed Dooku, but made the wrong decision in regards to Palpatine.

havokeff wrote:
Anakin will bring balance to the Force, at this point it was going to be by being redeemed by his son and destroying the Sith, instead of at the point in ROTS, where he killed Dooku, but made the wrong decision in regards to Palpatine.

Indeed, there is a good reason why the scene on the Invisible Hand is so close to the scene on the DSII. Though, I don't think Anakin cemented his choice till Coruscant and disarming Windu. That was the point of no return for him, rather like Luke's about to be fried to death by Force lightening.