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During a recent thread, the composition of the rebel fleet just prior to Endor came up as well as the fleet that attacked Endor and the DSII. During the battle, it is clear that there are at least two Star Cruiser type ships of the Home One class, as well as at least 10 of the various sub classes of Liberty. You can make an argument for up to three Cruisers with perhaps double the Liberty (and sub classes) ships which would give you roughly the ship count and firepower of a sector fleet in the Empire, 24 Stardestroyers, IIRC is the standard TO&E per sector.

That seems like a fairly large commitment for the Mon Calamari to put up for the rebellion, especially since they themselves were supposed to be being oppressed at this time by the Imperial forces. Why would a race, that was enslaved by the government, have a sector fleet worth of warships (even if you buy the EU crap about converted starlinners, they still stood up to warships and thus were comparable).

The Mon Cals appear to have been full members of the Republic, due to Mon Cal's being present in the Senate of the Galactic Republic in RotS, presumably the Senate delegation. So would this battle fleet represent the defense fleet of the member planet and their holdings? Could it have been a sector fleet of the Mon Cals and if so, where has it been for the last twenty years?

If it is a recent build, even in the last five to ten years, how did an enslaved race/sector create a battle fleet while enslaved? I know the Squidheads share the world with the Mon Cal's, and they were Separatists, the Squidheads helped build the Invisible Hand, IIRC. Were the Mon Cal's punished with the Squid's, since they don't seem to be in high regards in the OT much either.

Anyone want to take a crack at this?

I thought many of the (initial, and larger) Mon Cal Ships were converted luxury liners, with added weapons blisters, armor, etc, with a few, (home one) being altered more fully in secret. Then you get to Mon Remonda, actually purpose built and designed warship.

Frankly, I think the Mon Cal were a regional military power the whole time and only recently (as of ROTJ) threw their support behind the rebellion as a direct reaction to the events of ANH.

In essence, they were one of the (many?) star systems that slipped through the Empire's fingers after the Death Star was obliterated.

Knife wrote:During a recent thread, the composition of the rebel fleet just prior to Endor came up as well as the fleet that attacked Endor and the DSII. During the battle, it is clear that there are at least two Star Cruiser type ships of the Home One class, as well as at least 10 of the various sub classes of Liberty. You can make an argument for up to three Cruisers with perhaps double the Liberty (and sub classes) ships which would give you roughly the ship count and firepower of a sector fleet in the Empire, 24 Stardestroyers, IIRC is the standard TO&E per sector.

That seems more like the minimum of what would be nessissary. After all, the Endor fleet was at least sector fleet strength not counting the Executor. Even with superior tactics and starfighters, and the confusion caused by the loss of the communications destroyer, Executor, and Emperor, it should probably have taken at least a sector-level fleet on the part of the Rebels to win the way they did.

That seems like a fairly large commitment for the Mon Calamari to put up for the rebellion, especially since they themselves were supposed to be being oppressed at this time by the Imperial forces. Why would a race, that was enslaved by the government, have a sector fleet worth of warships (even if you buy the EU crap about converted starlinners, they still stood up to warships and thus were comparable).

Didn't the Mon Calimari rebel before Endor and take back control of the system and shipyards? Also, I suppose their might have been rouge Mon Calimari ships roaming around after the Imperial takeover, though probably few if any real warships (converted starliners, remember )?

The Mon Cals appear to have been full members of the Republic, due to Mon Cal's being present in the Senate of the Galactic Republic in RotS, presumably the Senate delegation. So would this battle fleet represent the defense fleet of the member planet and their holdings? Could it have been a sector fleet of the Mon Cals and if so, where has it been for the last twenty years?

I'm doubt it. I haven't heard anything about weather Mon Calimari had a sector fleet or what happened to it after the Empire took over. Also, this would probably conflict with the converted starliners bit, which, like it or not, is part of official literature.

If it is a recent build, even in the last five to ten years, how did an enslaved race/sector create a battle fleet while enslaved? I know the Squidheads share the world with the Mon Cal's, and they were Separatists, the Squidheads helped build the Invisible Hand, IIRC. Were the Mon Cal's punished with the Squid's, since they don't seem to be in high regards in the OT much either.

They were no longer slaves by Endor from what I've heard. More than that vauge possibility, I can't say. More curious is that they apparently survived reconquest and retaliation for any length of time.

DrMckay wrote:I thought many of the (initial, and larger) Mon Cal Ships were converted luxury liners, with added weapons blisters, armor, etc, with a few, (home one) being altered more fully in secret. Then you get to Mon Remonda, actually purpose built and designed warship.

I don't buy the EU crap, about being refitted liners. The EU also say's each one is different, and that is plainly not true from just the visuals of the Battle of Endor. HOWEVER, even if it is true, that they are refitted liners, they stood up to and were comparable with dedicated warships so referring to them as a refitted or upgraded liner is a red herring. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, fires multi-megaton or teraton level turbolasers like a duck...

So then you're faced with the notion of why the Empire would allow an enslaved race and it's holdings to build large super liners that are easily refitted to hugely powerful warships.

Galvatron wrote:Frankly, I think the Mon Cal were a regional military power the whole time and only recently (as of ROTJ) threw their support behind the rebellion as a direct reaction to the events of ANH.

In essence, they were one of the (many?) star systems that slipped through the Empire's fingers after the Death Star was obliterated.

I would tend to agree with that. Hence why I mentioned the possibility of the fleet being the Mon Cal's defense fleet for their sector/holdings in the Republic. I would toss all the EU garbage about them being liners, each one different, and the Mon Cal's being enslaved if I could, but I can't. It would make more sense if the old defense navies and armies of the member states of the Republic still existed for large and powerful sectors even a decade or so after the formation of the Empire. Mon Cal still have a sizable defense fleet even as the Empire slowly took over it's responsibilities for the Mon Cal's and they were slowly expected to phase out their fleet.

I would make is so that after Alderaan was destroyed, the Mon Cal's and others dedicated their defense fleets to the Rebel Alliance.

of course the Mon Cals could have built them under the nose of/bribed a Sector Moff to look the other way, (Pleasure yacht, etc,) while building in heavier armor, shields, weapon install points, etc. Something that can be easily upgraded into a decent sort of warship, but nothing too powerful. Also, a luxury liner would be pretty easy to turn into a Hospital Ship-did the Death Star frag one like that?

The Romulan Republic wrote: That seems more like the minimum of what would be nessissary. After all, the Endor fleet was at least sector fleet strength not counting the Executor. Even with superior tactics and starfighters, and the confusion caused by the loss of the communications destroyer, Executor, and Emperor, it should probably have taken at least a sector-level fleet on the part of the Rebels to win the way they did.

Yeah, the rebels clearly didn't expect a sector fleet to be waiting for them at Endor, though having a SSD and escorts didn't seem to worry their advance team so some Imperial naval presence was clearly expected, just not a whole sector fleet. They sent enough ships to quickly overwhelm what they thought would be there and set up a perimeter around the target.

Though that never made much sense, unless it was more a blockade, to prevent smaller ships from launching from the DSII and escaping, rather than some sort of actual perimeter to duke it out with the DSII. They expected it to be inoperable.

Didn't the Mon Calimari rebel before Endor and take back control of the system and shipyards? Also, I suppose their might have been rouge Mon Calimari ships roaming around after the Imperial takeover, though probably few if any real warships (converted starliners, remember )?

Might have, I don't know. But to have that many *spare* ships out floating around is odd.

I'm doubt it. I haven't heard anything about weather Mon Calimari had a sector fleet or what happened to it after the Empire took over. Also, this would probably conflict with the converted starliners bit, which, like it or not, is part of official literature.

I don't like it and it's an easy retcon; hell the EU crap about being each different is obvious bunk, why believe the converted liner crap. However like I mentioned before, even if they are liners, they built them with a *wink wink, nod nod* liners since they could convert them over to be so effective at being a warship.

DrMckay wrote:of course the Mon Cals could have built them under the nose of/bribed a Sector Moff to look the other way, (Pleasure yacht, etc,) while building in heavier armor, shields, weapon install points, etc. Something that can be easily upgraded into a decent sort of warship, but nothing too powerful. Also, a luxury liner would be pretty easy to turn into a Hospital Ship-did the Death Star frag one like that?

The only vessel that's referred to as a medical ship so far as I am aware is the "medical frigate," which was a Nebulon B, not a Mon Calimari design.

DrMckay wrote:of course the Mon Cals could have built them under the nose of/bribed a Sector Moff to look the other way, (Pleasure yacht, etc,) while building in heavier armor, shields, weapon install points, etc. Something that can be easily upgraded into a decent sort of warship, but nothing too powerful. Also, a luxury liner would be pretty easy to turn into a Hospital Ship-did the Death Star frag one like that?

You are still dealing with something the size of a sector fleet. While perhaps a drop in the bucket for the entire Imperial fleet, enough ships to duel with one of your sector fleets would be noticed.

And as for the 'Hospital ship', in the novelization, they refer to the Medical Frigate. On screen, when they say it, in regards to some Tie's heading toward the Medical Frigate; it's the Nebulon shown.

You can get into the argument that one of the Mon Cal cruisers were called a frigate; though I can pull out a two tiered system where a lower tier Cruiser can be considered an upper tier Star-destroyer/frigate, thus making one of the cruisers referable as a frigate.

You can get into the argument that one of the Mon Cal cruisers were called a frigate; though I can pull out a two tiered system where a lower tier Cruiser can be considered an upper tier Star-destroyer/frigate, thus making one of the cruisers referable as a frigate.

I believe the novel of ROTJ refers to the "Headquarters Frigate." If it is Home One they're talking about, their is absolutely no way you can justify calling Home One a frigate. Its either a light battleship/battlecruiser, or a heavy cruiser. Its probably better to just consider this an error, and rationalize it in-universe as, for example, deliberate misinformation from the Rebels.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

You can get into the argument that one of the Mon Cal cruisers were called a frigate; though I can pull out a two tiered system where a lower tier Cruiser can be considered an upper tier Star-destroyer/frigate, thus making one of the cruisers referable as a frigate.

I believe the novel of ROTJ refers to the "Headquarters Frigate." If it is Home One they're talking about, their is absolutely no way you can justify calling Home One a frigate. Its either a light battleship/battlecruiser, or a heavy cruiser. Its probably better to just consider this an error, and rationalize it in-universe as, for example, deliberate misinformation from the Rebels.

Meh, I adore the Home One, however it is hardly a battleship or battlecruiser, compared to Imperial battleships/battlecruisers. I would, however, put it squarely in the Star [cruiser] range, though probably on the lower end if not mid range due to size and power. That said, if you're just going off of size, most modern day frigates and cruisers are of fairly comparable size, not one being three times longer than the other. But I agree, Home One being a Starfrigate is fairly dumb.

Knife wrote:Meh, I adore the Home One, however it is hardly a battleship or battlecruiser, compared to Imperial battleships/battlecruisers. I would, however, put it squarely in the Star [cruiser] range, though probably on the lower end if not mid range due to size and power. That said, if you're just going off of size, most modern day frigates and cruisers are of fairly comparable size, not one being three times longer than the other. But I agree, Home One being a Starfrigate is fairly dumb.

Ok, fair enough, its probably a cruiser not a battleship. Not that it matters that much to me one way or the other.

Possible nitpick here... But Knife, you don't buy the "EU crap" that they are refitted luxury liners, but isn't it also "EU crap" that they are a slave race? Why go with that then? Certainly the movies don't substantiate it and, IIRC, the novelizations don't mention it either. Actually, from the points you raised, ROTJ makes a nice case for them not being a slave race at all.

Granted this is from the mouth of a complete EU hater.

havokeff wrote:Possible nitpick here... But Knife, you don't buy the "EU crap" that they are refitted luxury liners, but isn't it also "EU crap" that they are a slave race? Why go with that then? Certainly the movies don't substantiate it and, IIRC, the novelizations don't mention it either. Actually, from the points you raised, ROTJ makes a nice case for them not being a slave race at all.

Granted this is from the mouth of a complete EU hater.

Well if we're completely throwing out canon policy, you can just come up with whatever explanation you'd prefer for the Mon Cal fleet.

Maybe I have a logical explanation: the first Mon Cal ships were built alongside the failed experiments of the Imperial Calamarian-style ships as armoured and armable starliners under the nose of the governor to mantain the know-how from the Clone Wars (in the war they had at least a capital ship), and then, after kicking the Empire out (and I suppose that the Empire didn't bothered to reconquer-exterminate them partly because they were relatively isolated and partly because in the beginning they believed the Mon Cal not-dangerous), armed their 'starliners' and began to mass-produce the armed version of the best starliner design and, maybe, even produced the ships designed for the Empire (the project was a failure because the control systems were designed for Mon Cal and Quarren), creating a fleet strong enough to defend them against what the Empire was willing to use against them before the second Death Star.

The Mon Cals could have originally have built them as warships (I believe that there is an example in the Medstar duology) during the Clone Wars and later converted them to civilian use after the establishment of the New Order. After all, the Lucrehulks were still kept around for various purposes and one could easily retrofit a Star Cruiser back into a warship if you planned it properly and paid off the right people.

Galvatron wrote:Frankly, I think the Mon Cal were a regional military power the whole time and only recently (as of ROTJ) threw their support behind the rebellion as a direct reaction to the events of ANH.

In essence, they were one of the (many?) star systems that slipped through the Empire's fingers after the Death Star was obliterated.

You have a bad habit of just asserting things on your own authority, rather than showing how you reasoned them from available evidence.

We know they did indeed control an area of the galaxy. They had mining colonies on asteroids in other star systems, and several colony worlds with shipyards. It became a Rebel stronghold after Yavin, when they joined the Alliance. (GATORW)

havokeff wrote:Possible nitpick here... But Knife, you don't buy the "EU crap" that they are refitted luxury liners, but isn't it also "EU crap" that they are a slave race? Why go with that then? Certainly the movies don't substantiate it and, IIRC, the novelizations don't mention it either. Actually, from the points you raised, ROTJ makes a nice case for them not being a slave race at all.

Granted this is from the mouth of a complete EU hater.

Oh, I accept it grudgingly. Though the RotJ disproves the 'each one a separate work of art' crap, however I don't like it. Anyways, like I mentioned earlier; calling them a converted liner is a red herring anyways, since converted or not they can stand toe to toe with dedicated, purpose built warships.

By and far, most recent source books, and even the same EU material that describes their ships as "converted liners" in the same breath say that the Mon Calamari are superior shipbuilders etc. etc. But regardless how you cut it, there is no way a converted liner can be described as having the same armour as an ISD. It will require incredibly extensive rebuilding, and by the time you are done, the time and resources taken could have built an entirely new ship.

This has been raised before, on the Fleet Junkies threads ages ago, and after much of the old descriptions of the Mon Calamari were retcon off as Imperial propaganda, there lies a small possibility that much of the converted liner crap was also Imperial Propaganda. Of course, asking for such a retcon from ILM is a vain hope.

Well there is a MC80 Liberty schematic in the article on ship-plans stolen by Separatists, so they seem to have had a military beginning.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You have a bad habit of just asserting things on your own authority, rather than showing how you reasoned them from available evidence.

My rationale is that even Alderaan had strong defenses, albeit passive ones, so I doubt that the Empire was able to force systems that were well-represented in the senate to completely disarm in only 20 years. Thus I have no problem believing that many of them still had operational planetary shields and fleets at the pivotal time of ANH.

And, yes, this all fits in with my perception of the Death Star as a crucial strategic weapon for the Empire, despite what the EU might say.

I always figured the "liners" were liners in name only and really cruisers without guns and military grade shields so the Mon Calamari could "lose" them to Rebellion and then arm them without the Empire immediately figuring out that they were in the capital ship building business and razing their shipyards.

Galvatron wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You have a bad habit of just asserting things on your own authority, rather than showing how you reasoned them from available evidence.

My rationale is that even Alderaan had strong defenses, albeit passive ones, so I doubt that the Empire was able to force systems that were well-represented in the senate to completely disarm in only 20 years. Thus I have no problem believing that many of them still had operational planetary shields and fleets at the pivotal time of ANH.

And, yes, this all fits in with my perception of the Death Star as a crucial strategic weapon for the Empire, despite what the EU might say.

No I agree, but I don't know if I think the likely outcome is outright open defiance and spontaneous and overt rebellion galaxywide. I like Mike's idea that the Mon Cal government played ball (like most) but was a Rebel supporter with plausible deniability and like its brethren, looking for an opportune moment. Hence why the Rebellion could count on so much in-built support as soon as the Empire went into a political crisis.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:No I agree, but I don't know if I think the likely outcome is outright open defiance and spontaneous and overt rebellion galaxywide. I like Mike's idea that the Mon Cal government played ball (like most) but was a Rebel supporter with plausible deniability and like its brethren, looking for an opportune moment. Hence why the Rebellion could count on so much in-built support as soon as the Empire went into a political crisis.

That's kinda what I meant. I don't imagine that the Mon Cal government or their Imperial Senator openly defied the Empire prior to ANH any more than, say, Bail Organa did. I expect they were far more judicious than that and politely declined to disarm their forces and it was these entrenched regional militaries that the Death Star was intended to deal with so the starfleet wouldn't have to.