StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I was browsing in a RPG shop today and stumbled across a Clone Wars supplement for the Saga Edition of the Star Wars RPG. Flipping through it I find out a few interesting fluff tidbits. One is the Providence Class was considered a particularly capable class of Star Destroyer and that is was, to a certain extent, customizable.

The other was a picture of our friend the Malevolence with the caption that it was a Subjugator-class heavy cruiser. The class rating is pleasantly non-minimalist, as it's clearly a big bastard but not in the Executer's league. There's some fluff about it being the most effective battleship the Separatists fielded, which would mean that by being designed and built as dedicated warship instead of a converted civilian design it was more effective than the Lucrehulks. Also, since the class wasn't named Malevolence, they obviously built more than one.

Wookiepedia now has an article on it.

click me

Does the CIS have any brains or PR people? This is a worse name than Stardestroyer!

It was mentioned on the CW thread, but I guess that's more a general debate thread about the series in general.

Been working hard on that article, and the other CW era stuff that's been leaking out slowly. There's actually been more than I could have hoped for, what with the indirect and direct references to Republic battleships alongside the regular cruisers like the Venator-class. (on the naval organization page, they have heavier cruisers and battleships forming lines of 3-4 ships, line when heavier capital ships are involved, flotilla of 4-12 ships when it's just lighter ships, from the TCWCG mentioned in the OP). I know the Republic battleships escorted by Venators have been referenced since ROTS:ICS, but it's nice to see more and more info, even if there's no class name(s) yet.

VT-16 wrote: There's actually been more than I could have hoped for, what with the indirect and direct references to Republic battleships alongside the regular cruisers like the Venator-class. (on the naval organization page, they have heavier cruisers and battleships forming lines of 3-4 ships, line when heavier capital ships are involved, flotilla of 4-12 ships when it's just lighter ships, from the TCWCG mentioned in the OP).

Wait, is this did they actually say Venators are cruisers? As in, is this canon confirmation that "Star Destroyers" are in fact cruisers, not destroyers?

Also, I'll agree that Subjugator is a questionable name from a PR point of view, and that having this class as a heavy cruiser would be a nice bit of anti-minimalism. I'm not getting my hopes up on the latter though: the OP mentions fluff that describes it as a battleship, a contradiction which to me suggests that someone called it a cruiser while having no idea what a cruiser is, while actually meaning battleship. Much like how the Return of the Jedi novelization refers to a "Headquarters Frigate."

Maybe SUBJUGATOR was the Republic and Allied reporting name for the class, similar the NATO designations for each of the Soviet bloc designs.

Well, they're referred to by Obi-Wan as "mainline cruisers" though he could have referred to some other type of craft in episode 7 of the TV series. I think they're usually referred to as cruisers, and in SOTG07, Star Destroyers are referred to as usually being "star cruisers" (though the recent TCSWE even calls Strike-class cruisers "star cruisers"). It could be general, it could be specific. If anything, the actual destroyers are morphed into a subset of the cruiser section in SW.

Also, interesting that the pro-Republic narrator/reporter refers to it as a battleship at the beginning of the second Malevolence episode, yet the CIS itself classifies it as a heavy cruiser. Maybe it's like with the real-life Kirov-class battlecruiser, a missile cruiser to the Russians, a battlecruiser to the West (due to size/displacement etc.).

Or it's a battleship using one system (such as the Mon Cals') a cruiser by another (the Imperial one). It's not as if there's a shortage of different systems.

Maybe the line in the book about the Subjugator-class being "one of the largest ships to come out of Confederate shipyards" hints at a modernization of the Separatist Navy. With pre-war battleships like the Lucrehulk-class being outdone by larger cruisers and battleships in turn.

Captain Seafort wrote:Or it's a battleship using one system (such as the Mon Cals') a cruiser by another (the Imperial one). It's not as if there's a shortage of different systems.

That makes sense. Star Wars has a whole Galaxy and 25,000 years to develop different systems of classification.

To be honest, as nice as it would be to see more anti-minimalism from Lucasfilms, I'd have thought that the Malevolance would be either a battle ship or battle cruiser.

Given the implicit dismissal by a Republic official of the Malevolence being 8km or longer, it's possible most star battlecruisers at the time were smaller than it turned out to be. So, for a Republic observer, it could be like a star battlecruiser or a star dreadnaught, but to the Separatists, it's a heavy cruiser and just the start of an extensive naval development program.

Out of curiosity, is it the biggest Seperatist warship we know of, or is that place taken by something else, like the Lucrehulks?

Neither, the Campaign Guide refers to the Subjugator-class as one of the largest ships to come out of the Confederate shipyards, thus there's at least one unnamed design that's bigger, but not at the time of the Malevolence's existence. The Subjugator-class represented by the Malevolence in The Clone Wars Visual Guide is said to be the largest warship in the CIS, but that seems to focus on the early part of the war.

There's the Shadowblade from the Living Force Campaign, but I don't know its size. It was a big warship though, but also described as a cruiser. Built at the very end of the war.

VT-16 wrote:Given the implicit dismissal by a Republic official of the Malevolence being 8km or longer, it's possible most star battlecruisers at the time were smaller than it turned out to be. So, for a Republic observer, it could be like a star battlecruiser or a star dreadnaught, but to the Separatists, it's a heavy cruiser and just the start of an extensive naval development program.

That was just a pundit, and it was a fanon inside joke. Incorrect appraisals, especially by public commentators, of military equipment is very commonplace - especially the enemies' military resources. Furthermore, Wookiee's retarded fixation on length versus volume or mass notwithstanding, it would not be difficult to imagine a very bulky warship in the 8-9 km range whose volume was competitive with HIMS Executor. Furthermore, we know the "Super-class" disinformation successfully and deliberately confused observers.

VT-16 wrote:Neither, the Campaign Guide refers to the Subjugator-class as one of the largest ships to come out of the Confederate shipyards, thus there's at least one unnamed design that's bigger, but not at the time of the Malevolence's existence.

What are you saying? The statement "Y was one of the largest X of a time period" is not necessarily logically equivalent to "Y was the largest X when Y was first built" AND "There was a X, known as Z, larger than Y built after Y". It just means "one of the largest"; no additional intrinsic information is contained.

VT-16 wrote:The Subjugator-class represented by the Malevolence in The Clone Wars Visual Guide is said to be the largest warship in the CIS, but that seems to focus on the early part of the war.

Okay, well that lends credence to your theory. But it still doesn't establish that larger vessels were necessarily built after CSS Malevolence.

VT-16 wrote:There's the Shadowblade from the Living Force Campaign, but I don't know its size. It was a big warship though, but also described as a cruiser. Built at the very end of the war.

Do you have data on this?

You know, working hard to extract any tiny piece of info I can on ships that don't pay attention to fanwank over the ISD, really doesn't get any more fun if you have to fucking nitpick details that I can't add anywhere on Wookieepedia without having it reverted. No, length is not an ideal for measuring anything, unlike volume and mass, but it's often the only available size info that can get on the Wookieepedia. Trust me, it's a wonder I sometimes even manage to find the necessary info at all. Yes, the whole podcast was meant to be largely a joke, too bad it can't get excused that way, or McFuck and his gang would have a field day with it.

I was also going off of the VG when I wrote about the Malevolence. The CG says it's one of the largest, while the VG, dealing with the early part of the war, says it was the biggest CIS ship at that point. That's it. I'm sure other, larger designs came online later on in the war, otherwise the sentence makes no sense.

As for the Shadowblade, they refer to it being so large and intimidating, singling it out among other types of CIS vessels, so I assume it's massive as well.

Samuel wrote:Does the CIS have any brains or PR people? This is a worse name than Stardestroyer!

We field the Predator and Reaper class UAV drones. Sometimes the PR is a nasty scary name.

Ender wrote:

Samuel wrote:Does the CIS have any brains or PR people? This is a worse name than Stardestroyer!

We field the Predator and Reaper class UAV drones. Sometimes the PR is a nasty scary name.

Yeah, but those send a message- we are going to kill you. "Subjugator" is like openly admiting you are the bad guys. It would be like having a ship named Corruption or Tyranny.

Samuel wrote:

Ender wrote:

Samuel wrote:Does the CIS have any brains or PR people? This is a worse name than Stardestroyer!

We field the Predator and Reaper class UAV drones. Sometimes the PR is a nasty scary name.

Yeah, but those send a message- we are going to kill you. "Subjugator" is like openly admiting you are the bad guys. It would be like having a ship named Corruption or Tyranny.

It's not the worst name the EU has come up with. In XWA, they named one of the bad guy's personal Star Destroyer the Corruptor.

Totally doesn't fit the imperial naming scheme at all. Someone at lucasarts dropped the ball big time.

What exactly is the Imperial naming scheme then? Even in the stuff surrounding Death Squadron we were given the Tyrant, and Isard's destroyers in "The Bacta War" were Corrupter, Avarice and Virulence. The Empire isn't exactly averse to giving its ships nasty names.

Samuel wrote:

Ender wrote:

Samuel wrote:Does the CIS have any brains or PR people? This is a worse name than Stardestroyer!

We field the Predator and Reaper class UAV drones. Sometimes the PR is a nasty scary name.

Yeah, but those send a message- we are going to kill you. "Subjugator" is like openly admiting you are the bad guys. It would be like having a ship named Corruption or Tyranny.

It sends the message "we are going to crush you", which is what the separatists want. Scare the Republic into letting them secede. Keep in mind that only the Sith Lords know this is all a scam. Everyone else really thinks that the Separatists legitimately want their own government and territory, and the Republic wants to keep the galaxy united.

What exactly is the Imperial naming scheme then? Even in the stuff surrounding Death Squadron we were given the Tyrant, and Isard's destroyers in "The Bacta War" were Corrupter, Avarice and Virulence. The Empire isn't exactly averse to giving its ships nasty names.

That's because the author's who invented those idiotic names were under the impression that the Empire revelled in being objectively evil. Those names are propaganda, and not the real ones, AFAIC.

Vympel wrote:

What exactly is the Imperial naming scheme then? Even in the stuff surrounding Death Squadron we were given the Tyrant, and Isard's destroyers in "The Bacta War" were Corrupter, Avarice and Virulence. The Empire isn't exactly averse to giving its ships nasty names.

That's because the author's who invented those idiotic names were under the impression that the Empire revelled in being objectively evil. Those names are propaganda, and not the real ones, AFAIC.

Evidence that those are not the real names?

Vympel wrote:

What exactly is the Imperial naming scheme then? Even in the stuff surrounding Death Squadron we were given the Tyrant, and Isard's destroyers in "The Bacta War" were Corrupter, Avarice and Virulence. The Empire isn't exactly averse to giving its ships nasty names.

That's because the author's who invented those idiotic names were under the impression that the Empire revelled in being objectively evil. Those names are propaganda, and not the real ones, AFAIC.

In universe it is probably either
1) Different translation for the same word that is the ships real name. We know ships are named in various tongues and their translation to basic can result in multiple ships with both the same and different name eg the Chiss Victory class star destroyer, the Rendeli Victory class Star destroyer, and all the other warships named Victory

2) The created name for the pulp holonovel propaganda that casts the Empire as objectively evil for propaganda/money making purposes

3) Part of one of Palpatine's games with the Admiralty, as described in Starfighters of Adumar

Ender wrote: 3) Part of one of Palpatine's games with the Admiralty, as described in Starfighters of Adumar

I like this option.

Although he doesn't get much exposition in the game, I can't help but think of Admiral Holtz (The Corruptor's skipper) as an insufferable douchbag who got sent after the Rebels with a shitty fleet (In the scan mission his fleet isn't even an even match for the Defiance's meager battlegroup) so they could do Imperial Command a favor and kill him off
Something like this

Imp officer#1: Holtz's being send after the rebels again. Do you think they'll kill him this time?
Office#2: God I hope so.

I thought it was just a small task force or detachment that you had to scan in that mission.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

That's because the author's who invented those idiotic names were under the impression that the Empire revelled in being objectively evil. Those names are propaganda, and not the real ones, AFAIC.

Evidence that those are not the real names?

As far as he cares; meaning he has none, and is responding to yet more stupid shit from LFL by either disregarding it or charitably reinterpreting it into something not stupid that doesn't suck. Try it sometime. Jedi Knights won't come to your house and arrest you for having your own personal continuity, and canon only really matters when you're debating something, which he's not.