Turbolasers as physical shells

[Kurgan]

I know this is an old, old thread (one I missed), but I thought it interesting that nobody really discussed the following:

- we see ejected shell casings from guns in ANH (though good call in mentioning this happening in ESB for Han's blaster shooting at Vader)

- ammo clips ARE used for blasters in the games (FPSs like the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight series and Republic Commando)

- blocking blaster bolts with lightsabers (and occasionally bigger bolts fired by vehicles)

Of course that could all be pointless if blasters and turbolasers are a seperate technology entirely, rather than just "scaled up" versions of the same thing.

Otherwise, feel free to lock & ignore if you think that wasn't contribution enough!

[Bounty]

ammo clips ARE used for blasters in the games

IIRC, the Jedi Knight series was very vague as to what the weapon pickup actually was; an icon with a number can refer to bullets but it's just as easily seen as a power pack with X shots. They are games anyway, so this probably falls under mechanics.

As for shells - were the ESB ones part of the special effects mechanics for that scene or something? I don't recall them.

[Kurgan]

Physical ammo/Clips?

http://strategy.jediknight.net/jka/item ... ge=weapons

http://www.hillside.co.uk/glyn/dark/wea ... Rifle%20(3

http://www.darkforces.jediknight.net/scr-mod01.shtml

Note the pictures.

[Ghost Rider]

Or you could start a new topic, fucknugget.

[Kurgan]

Original thread: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=104332

Do the guns have clips & ammo? In the games, yes:

Pictures of JKA ammo

Pictures of Republic Commando ammo

Pictures of Dark Forces Weapons with apparent clips

3D Models based on the Dark Forces weapons with clips for ammo

Note the pictures.

[Batman]

Leaving alone the incredibly low position games reside in on the Canon totem pole, no, them using magazines does NOT mean they're actually projectile weapons. It merely means they rely on a finite supply ammunition storage system. We use those today. They're called 'batteries'.

[Kurgan]

Shells For Laser Ammunition
1h 12m 53s
1h 15m 19s SE

SCENE: Virtually in any battle, the best is in the battle with the stormtroopers immediately after Leia has been pulled out of her cell (right before she blows a hole in the wall).

EVENT: The laser rifles are actually modified Sterling 9mm submachine guns, and when filming the shootouts they used blank bullets (so they would feel when the guns were shot and would simulate "kickback") which ejected spent cases as if they were real bullets.

Sorry I don't have a picture...

http://www.egosystem.com/starwars/anh/anh08.htm

[atg]

IIRC The Bacta War novel specifically mentions that the 'ammo clips' used in hand weaponry are power supplies. Note also that 'slugthrowers' in the novels appears to be the term used to describe projectile weopans, such as Lando used in Vision of the Future.

[Connor MacLeod]

In practice we dont really know enough about blasters or TLs or anything from the movies to really decide what they are. There's too much confusing/bizarre/insane evidence (IE han closing his eyes and his blaster ejecting casings in TESB) to come up with a single, unifying theory. Adding the EU just complicates things.

Generally I just assume that lots of different kinds of "blasters" exist, including projectile and beam variants of all kinds, and the terminology are just catch all phrases. Its so much simpler that way, especially where the movies are concerned. Realistically it is kind of silly to rely on a single kind of weapon as it is, as they can have different kinds of effects/capabilities also.

[SylasGaunt]

Shells For Laser Ammunition
1h 12m 53s
1h 15m 19s SE

SCENE: Virtually in any battle, the best is in the battle with the stormtroopers immediately after Leia has been pulled out of her cell (right before she blows a hole in the wall).

EVENT: The laser rifles are actually modified Sterling 9mm submachine guns, and when filming the shootouts they used blank bullets (so they would feel when the guns were shot and would simulate "kickback") which ejected spent cases as if they were real bullets.

Sorry I don't have a picture...

http://www.egosystem.com/starwars/anh/anh08.htm

I'd say that falls under the umbrella of 'special effects error'. The reasons for why they spit out shell casings are given. You can see something similar in Aliens where, despite the fact that Pulse Rifles are explicitly stated to be caseless, you see Vasquez' spitting out shell casings in the air duct scene. Compare it then to the modern star wars films and I'm betting you won't see any of those shell casings cropping up.

[McC]

I'd say that falls under the umbrella of 'special effects error'. The reasons for why they spit out shell casings are given. You can see something similar in Aliens where, despite the fact that Pulse Rifles are explicitly stated to be caseless, you see Vasquez' spitting out shell casings in the air duct scene. Compare it then to the modern star wars films and I'm betting you won't see any of those shell casings cropping up.

Horseshit. This doesn't get to be an error while damage-before-impact shots are enshrined as canon.

[Ender]

I'd say that falls under the umbrella of 'special effects error'. The reasons for why they spit out shell casings are given. You can see something similar in Aliens where, despite the fact that Pulse Rifles are explicitly stated to be caseless, you see Vasquez' spitting out shell casings in the air duct scene. Compare it then to the modern star wars films and I'm betting you won't see any of those shell casings cropping up.

Horseshit. This doesn't get to be an error while damage-before-impact shots are enshrined as canon.

Your personal complaints about how TLs work aside, damage before impact was deliberately added to the prequels where as shell casings from blasters were not. That makes it pretty clear that damage before impact is enshrined as canon, while the shell casings are the result of SFX limits at the time.

[McC]

damage before impact was deliberately added to the prequels

It was? This is news to me. Is there a reference to these shots somewhere?

where as shell casings from blasters were not.

Has it been firmly established what type of weapon the spent casings from the starship guns in Episode III are? I wasn't aware of this, either.

[Ender]

damage before impact was deliberately added to the prequels

It was? This is news to me. Is there a reference to these shots somewhere?

It is most clearly seen in ROTS when Yoda is overseeing the battle and the shots come at him, but there are a few others.

where as shell casings from blasters were not.

Has it been firmly established what type of weapon the spent casings from the starship guns in Episode III are? I wasn't aware of this, either.

Yes, it is canonically stated to be a mass-driver.

If you aren't aware of any of the facts surrounding the issue under discussion, why wade in at all?

[McC]

If you aren't aware of any of the facts surrounding the issue under discussion, why wade in at all?

This is a bit of a silly question, isn't it? "If you don't know everything, don't say anything." But what if you don't know whether or not you know everything? For all I knew, DBI was limited to a few scenes in the OT. I've now learned otherwise. I don't really see why that's bad.

Edit: I'm too tired. I typed "prequels" rather than "OT".

[Vympel]

Yes, it is canonically stated to be a mass-driver.

"Proton cannon" according to the latest TCW episode, as well. They load the same shells into it, and they're stated to "penetrate" the shields of the Acclamators landing on Ryloth - we see one get it's engine blown clean off. It's massively inconsistent later in the episode.

[Ender]

If you aren't aware of any of the facts surrounding the issue under discussion, why wade in at all?

This is a bit of a silly question, isn't it? "If you don't know everything, don't say anything." But what if you don't know whether or not you know everything? For all I knew, DBI was limited to a few scenes in the OT. I've now learned otherwise. I don't really see why that's bad.

Edit: I'm too tired. I typed "prequels" rather than "OT".

There is a marked difference between asking a question, and leading into a rant about something you have made your displeasure about known by decrying ti as "horseshit".

[Murazor]

"Proton cannon" according to the latest TCW episode, as well. They load the same shells into it, and they're stated to "penetrate" the shields of the Acclamators landing on Ryloth - we see one get it's engine blown clean off. It's massively inconsistent later in the episode.

Seconded.

I mean, the bolt that hits the Acclamator results in a fireball/dust cloud that is several hundred meters in diameter. Then, when Kenobi commandeers one of the guns (also, would someone kindly explain to me why the creepy droid eyes, considering that they apparently have no inbuilt AI) they have all the devastating firepower of an anemic bazooka.

[VT-16]

Scalable yield? That's the excuse for other projectiles like the missiles from the Galaxy Gun.

[Ender]

"Proton cannon" according to the latest TCW episode, as well. They load the same shells into it, and they're stated to "penetrate" the shields of the Acclamators landing on Ryloth - we see one get it's engine blown clean off. It's massively inconsistent later in the episode.

Seconded.

I mean, the bolt that hits the Acclamator results in a fireball/dust cloud that is several hundred meters in diameter. Then, when Kenobi commandeers one of the guns (also, would someone kindly explain to me why the creepy droid eyes, considering that they apparently have no inbuilt AI) they have all the devastating firepower of an anemic bazooka.

Haven't seen the ep, but your description would suggest to me that most of the power for the fireball came from the ship itself. Holding a 20 million ton craft aloft is not going to be easy.

[Murazor]

Haven't seen the ep, but your description would suggest to me that most of the power for the fireball came from the ship itself. Holding a 20 million ton craft aloft is not going to be easy.

A couple of additional notes:

1- The shells are relatively small. Two clones can lift one with some effort, so I'd say that they must weight something between fifty and one hundred and fifty kilos.

2- The proton guns are small (the size of a small truck or a large van, IIRC) and they aren't connected to an external power source.

3- There isn't a lot of recoil, so the shells aren't launched at ultrahigh speeds.

With all this, I'd say that they might use the same kind of explosives found in proton torpedoes (explaining the "proton" part) and probably incorporate some kind of shield piercing technology. Kenobi might have chosen to fire his shells unprimed, which would mean that the damage observed in the courtyard was just the kinetic energy of the inert projectiles and more or less explain the serious differences between the first shots fired against Windu's ships and the comparatively puny booms seen at the end of the episode.

[Vympel]

Haven't seen the ep, but your description would suggest to me that most of the power for the fireball came from the ship itself. Holding a 20 million ton craft aloft is not going to be easy.

They create huge explosion/ flak burst clouds in mid-air as well, hence the inconsistency with their explosive effects later.

[Ender]

Haven't seen the ep, but your description would suggest to me that most of the power for the fireball came from the ship itself. Holding a 20 million ton craft aloft is not going to be easy.

They create huge explosion/ flak burst clouds in mid-air as well, hence the inconsistency with their explosive effects later.

I'll watch when I get a free minute, but off the top of my head I would suggest a bomb pumped laser - flak would result if it was a lower power weapon, which would be consistent with being low wavelength, and thus able to penetrate shields.

[Kurgan]

Haven't seen the ep, but your description would suggest to me that most of the power for the fireball came from the ship itself. Holding a 20 million ton craft aloft is not going to be easy.

They create huge explosion/ flak burst clouds in mid-air as well, hence the inconsistency with their explosive effects later.

Have we ruled out "shield interactions" for those "flak bursts"? I can't remember...

[FSTargetDrone]

Have we ruled out "shield interactions" for those "flak bursts"? I can't remember...

If memory serves, some of the bursting shots exploded well away from any of the large vessels, seemingly too far to be directly interacting with the shields.