ICS: Good Representation of the SW Universe?

[Murazor]

Because I think that the people here should have a chance to give their opinion in this without having to go to SB.com, this is the same poll that has attracted some interest in Spacebattles.

"Do you believe the ICS is a good representation for the SW universe?"

Answer yes or no, please. This is not a thread for rants, arguments, derailments or long explanations, pro or con. Also, there is no "other" option in the poll: if you don't care or don't know, you have no vote.

Please, mods, note that this is not some kind of attempt to make an appeal to majority. I have genuine interest in knowing the opinions about the ICS in this board.

That's all.

[Bounty]

The questions is vague. Are you asking about the ICS' quality from a storytelling point of view, or from a technical one? Are you asking if it stands on its own as a representation of the SW universe or if it's good as a supplemental material? Both? Neither?

[Murazor]

The intent of the original thread seems to be about the technical perspective, since no one has bothered to deny that the ICS books have great artwork.

Regarding the second question, it is more about whether the ICS works in combination with the rest of SW media (both movies and EU) or if it stands out as an outlier.

[VT-16]

The continuing problem is that while the ICS and ITW books treat every location and ship as only a small part of the overall universe, most other EU sources wank off to them as much as possible. Writers who grew up in 1977 still can't shake off the feel that the Imperial-class is somehow a domineering warship design and only eclipsed by a handful of ships 100 times larger than itself. Which its designers apparantly jumped right into, according to old and thankfully outdated rpg books. But don't let that little fact stop TFNtards from stating them as still relevant.

[Bounty]

The continuing problem is that while the ICS and ITW books treat evyer location and ship as only a small part of the overall universe, most other EU sources wank off to them as much as possible.

I've seen people complain the ICS books have pages full of craft that are barely in the movies - hovertaxis, that Utapau fighter, things like the catamaran that only show up for a few seconds. It's a criticism I don't understand; sure, you buy the books to know where the loo is on Amidala's yacht, but the little snippets are just as interesting, if not more so because they highlight parts of the technology that the movies don't have time for or interest in. Is it a sin to devote space to the Coruscant firefighting shuttles when the way he interprets them is actually interesting?

It's not like the ships you do want to see aren't there.

[Ender]

One of the things I continually find amazing is how the numbers sync up. I can take varying scenes and look at them in different ways, but the usual trend is that I end up seeing things fall fairly close to each other. The ICSs do a good job with marking that trend. One of the more frustrating things about SBers is that they exploit marked scientific ignorance to handwave away the fact that so many incidents are so close to each other, and instead cherry pick outliers.


Incidentaly, those some nitwits you are sourcing in the OP are also putting forth the argument that the ICS is wrong because Acclamators do not have weapons based off... well based off their say so really. Might want to consider the sources when transplanting discussions.

[Murazor]

The only guy whom I do mention is the OP creator in Spacebattles. Considering that I am quoting him verbatim and that SD.net is unusually stern in matters involving plagiarism, I decided to play it safe.

Call me a pussy, if you must.

And if bringing up the issue with the Acclamators is a way of asking my position, let me quote my post in the Spacebattles thread.

Voted No.

Not because I hate the ICS or something like that. I actually own the OTL ICS and was never involved in the original STvsSW debate that the AotC ICS killed for all intents and purposes. But because I don't feel that the ICS is a good match with the rest of SW and particularly the EU.

I wouldn't mind if it did. I actually write my fics using the ICS paradigm. But as things stand, I must say that the PT ICS do not match very well at all with about 99% of the Expanded Universe.

Regarding the Acclamators, I can think of a number of reasons for the apparent lack of naval weaponry seen in The Clone Wars so far, from a simple screw-up of the animators (the design of the Munificent bridge was completely different in the movies, IIRC) to an unarmed version of the Acclamator frame (I know that there are at least a couple of known Acclamator variants and Anakin's Venators were supposed to deal with the blockade on their own, so if the landing ships weren't expected to take part in the naval action, it is reasonable that Windu would pick the versions of the ship that offer the most internal space devated to transport of troops/weapons).

But that's probably a debate best left for a dedicated thread, if you are particularly interested in continuing this. This is supposed to be an opinion poll.

EDIT: Corrected quote tags. Hit submit instead of preview. Again.

[Ender]

And if bringing up the issue with the Acclamators is a way of asking my position, let me quote my post in the Spacebattles thread.

No, more just a point at the foolishness of tracking their mud in our house.

Voted No.

Not because I hate the ICS or something like that. I actually own the OTL ICS and was never involved in the original STvsSW debate that the AotC ICS killed for all intents and purposes. But because I don't feel that the ICS is a good match with the rest of SW and particularly the EU.

I wouldn't mind if it did. I actually write my fics using the ICS paradigm. But as things stand, I must say that the PT ICS do not match very well at all with about 99% of the Expanded Universe.

Yeah, you need to justify that claim of difference now. I would be very interested in hearing how something based in part off the EU does not fit the EU. So go ahead and provide your "99%" of it.

Regarding the Acclamators, I can think of a number of reasons for the apparent lack of naval weaponry seen in The Clone Wars so far, from a simple screw-up of the animators (the design of the Munificent bridge was completely different in the movies, IIRC) to an unarmed version of the Acclamator frame (I know that there are at least a couple of known Acclamator variants and Anakin's Venators were supposed to deal with the blockade on their own, so if the landing ships weren't expected to take part in the naval action, it is reasonable that Windu would pick the versions of the ship that offer the most internal space devated to transport of troops/weapons).

But that's probably a debate best left for a dedicated thread, if you are particularly interested in continuing this. This is supposed to be an opinion poll.

EDIT: Corrected quote tags. Hit submit instead of preview. Again.

Or most likely their weapons aren't the optimum ones for the job.

[Murazor]

Yeah, you need to justify that claim of difference now. I would be very interested in hearing how something based in part off the EU does not fit the EU. So go ahead and provide your "99%" of it.

Hmmm.

I knew that I should have added that disclaimer in Spacebattles. That should be "99% of what I've read/seen".

Still, I do not want to make mistakes with this one, as I know that I will be mocked rather harshly if I get my facts wrong.

And it will be a few days at least before I can access some of my books, so would you consider it fair to give me a week to put together a list of what I see as points of discontinuity between the Incredible Cross Sections and other EU products?

To pre-empt the obvious, if I do not put up before the time is up, I acknowledge that the point is as good as conceded and that I fully deserve whatever mockery I get.

Is this agreeable to you?

[VT-16]

The problem is, some of Saxton's writings are based on calculations done based ON films and books. That's the problem when some of the books and comics don't follow the other sources in turn, though I have some difficulty coming up with any example. Of course noted minimalist McEwok, who is not methodological in any sense, outright rejects any visual evidence due to some mistaken shots in the movies.

This is a classical example, instead of using the majority of evidence, point to a scant few outliers and ignore everything as a consequence. But in his case, he does the opposite in RPG terms, and ignores contradictory passages. Anyone tried fitting a RPG stat shuttle into the same RPG system's depiction of the Home One? Let's just say the Endor strike team wouldn't have made it out the door, let alone to Endor.

[Ender]

Yeah, you need to justify that claim of difference now. I would be very interested in hearing how something based in part off the EU does not fit the EU. So go ahead and provide your "99%" of it.

Hmmm.

I knew that I should have added that disclaimer in Spacebattles. That should be "99% of what I've read/seen".

Still, I do not want to make mistakes with this one, as I know that I will be mocked rather harshly if I get my facts wrong.

And it will be a few days at least before I can access some of my books, so would you consider it fair to give me a week to put together a list of what I see as points of discontinuity between the Incredible Cross Sections and other EU products?

To pre-empt the obvious, if I do not put up before the time is up, I acknowledge that the point is as good as conceded and that I fully deserve whatever mockery I get.

Is this agreeable to you?

I'm not in this for blood man. I'm interested in either seeing info that I and others have missed, or correcting and if necessary educating you as to why your line of reasoning was incorrect. Take the time you need, lord knows with the stuff with my mom I have scant time available. But take care in making strong claims with no support.

[The Romulan Republic]

Number-wise the only things that seemed really off to me were the numbers for some of the light guns. Kiloton-level shots from fighters seemed rather high considering R2 survived at least a glancing hit from one. As far as how they fit with the rest of the universe, they are perhaps a bit of an out-lier in the EU, but given the quality of a lot of the EU, that may be a good thing.

One minor complaint I have though is that if I recall correctly, the ICS for the Original Trilogy has very little on capital ships as opposed to fighter designs.

[Batman]

a glancing hit that had already gone through the shields. And if memory serves there were KT level estimates for fighter firepower based on the movies themselves quite a bit before the ICSes ever showed up to begin with.

[The Romulan Republic]

a glancing hit that had already gone through the shields. And if memory serves there were KT level estimates for fighter firepower based on the movies themselves quite a bit before the ICSes ever showed up to begin with.

I wouldn't know, I wasn't around for the good old days of the vs debate. I do recall hearing that their were gigaton level firepower estimates back then, but nothing on fighter weapons.

Anyway, I'm not saying it isn't possible (certainly I don't have the math skills to prove or disprove it myself, and their are too many variables in that scene such as the strength of the X-wing shields and how much of the bolt hit). Just that it seems odd to me. I'd be interested in knowing what the in support of Kt-level fighter guns outside the ICS is however.

[Ghost Rider]

a glancing hit that had already gone through the shields. And if memory serves there were KT level estimates for fighter firepower based on the movies themselves quite a bit before the ICSes ever showed up to begin with.

I wouldn't know, I wasn't around for the good old days of the vs debate. I do recall hearing that their were gigaton level firepower estimates back then, but nothing on fighter weapons.

Anyway, I'm not saying it isn't possible (certainly I don't have the math skills to prove or disprove it myself, and their are too many variables in that scene such as the strength of the X-wing shields and how much of the bolt hit). Just that it seems odd to me. I'd be interested in knowing what the in support of Kt-level fighter guns outside the ICS is however.

A great deal of the KT firepower was done from the fact X-Wings were blowing up sizable amounts of the Death Star's surface.

This was before the ICS.

[The Romulan Republic]

a glancing hit that had already gone through the shields. And if memory serves there were KT level estimates for fighter firepower based on the movies themselves quite a bit before the ICSes ever showed up to begin with.

I wouldn't know, I wasn't around for the good old days of the vs debate. I do recall hearing that their were gigaton level firepower estimates back then, but nothing on fighter weapons.

Anyway, I'm not saying it isn't possible (certainly I don't have the math skills to prove or disprove it myself, and their are too many variables in that scene such as the strength of the X-wing shields and how much of the bolt hit). Just that it seems odd to me. I'd be interested in knowing what the in support of Kt-level fighter guns outside the ICS is however.

A great deal of the KT firepower was done from the fact X-Wings were blowing up sizable amounts of the Death Star's surface.

This was before the ICS.

Well, obviously it was before. I suppose it just never occurred to me that those explosions would take kiloton-level firepower.

Anyway, that answers that. I won't attempt to dispute those claims, since I'm confident whoever came up with the estimations was probably much better at math than I am.

[Ender]

a glancing hit that had already gone through the shields. And if memory serves there were KT level estimates for fighter firepower based on the movies themselves quite a bit before the ICSes ever showed up to begin with.

I wouldn't know, I wasn't around for the good old days of the vs debate. I do recall hearing that their were gigaton level firepower estimates back then, but nothing on fighter weapons.

Anyway, I'm not saying it isn't possible (certainly I don't have the math skills to prove or disprove it myself, and their are too many variables in that scene such as the strength of the X-wing shields and how much of the bolt hit). Just that it seems odd to me. I'd be interested in knowing what the in support of Kt-level fighter guns outside the ICS is however.

A great deal of the KT firepower was done from the fact X-Wings were blowing up sizable amounts of the Death Star's surface.

This was before the ICS.

That suggested a rough oom, but it is the genonsis ring sequence that really provides it. As to them being used against R2, remember that it had to burn through the shields first - we see a shield flare before he gets knocked off line.

[Vympel]

For me the screencap showing the N-1 fighter's shields envelop R2 in TPM was always enough to prove that R2 had a shield around him.

[Connor MacLeod]

The intent of the original thread seems to be about the technical perspective, since no one has bothered to deny that the ICS books have great artwork.

The problem I find with discussing "technical" matters in this context is that it a.) requires people to be very well read on the EU which is rare (I've read everything novel-related up to LOTF, for example, so I am quite familiar with many aspects of the EU on a technical standpoint) and b.) it often depends on the person's knowledge. The more knowledgable about things a person is the better they are at grasping or analyzing techni8cal implications (I know for example that I dont have some of the knowledge that some people, like Mike or Ender do, and that limits my ability to do analysis, and to comment on it, properly.)

More often than not you'll have people falling into either or both category, and that will invariably shape their "view" on Star Wars (or other sci fi). Sci fi analysis isn't a simple thing to do, its incredibly time consuming and complex, but many people insist on trying ot simplify something you can't really simplify.

Regarding the second question, it is more about whether the ICS works in combination with the rest of SW media (both movies and EU) or if it stands out as an outlier.

The E U doesn't even work with itself always. Its a massive kludge. This is what happens when you have too many authors trying ot present their own views on SW as opposed to say waht Lucas does (wo doesnt help matters, I should add.) KJA had his own view, Kube MacDowell (Iblack fleet Crisis) had his own view, Zahn did, the lay who wrote Children of the Jedi and Planet of Twilight did, ,etc. et.c etc...

Authors always bring their own viewpoints into canon, you can't get away from that and its not just restricted to the ICSes (though usualyl when you get ICS you suually find its talking about the AOTC: ICSes and Curtis in particular.)

I have this same particular problem in 40K, but its less pronounced because its more of a fragmented society than SW is.

In these cases you really need to take a VERY VERY Broad approach in your look at the EU as a whole. You can't just look at particular novels, or books, or anything. Its not neccesarily particular or individual sourecs that give the authenticity (the numbers in the ICS HELP, of course, but they aren't the be-all/end all. They're just the simplest/most direct reference, and even then you need to do a bit of extrapolation.) These aren't things you can simplify into a "yes/no" answer or even a single post response (though I know many people will regardless, - its like po litics that way.)

The only guy whom I do mention is the OP creator in Spacebattles. Considering that I am quoting him verbatim and that SD.net is unusually stern in matters involving plagiarism, I decided to play it safe.

Call me a pussy, if you must.

I don't think you can really be accused of "plagarism" if you aren't trying to pass the work off as yourself or your own views or judgements or whatever. People cut/paste referencee what others say elsewhere all the time. Hell, *I* do it. As long as you give credit (or at least note that its not your work but you aren't bringing up names for some valid reason) it should be okay.

And if bringing up the issue with the Acclamators is a way of asking my position, let me quote my post in the Spacebattles thread.

Voted No.

Not because I hate the ICS or something like that. I actually own the OTL ICS and was never involved in the original STvsSW debate that the AotC ICS killed for all intents and purposes. But because I don't feel that the ICS is a good match with the rest of SW and particularly the EU.

I wouldn't mind if it did. I actually write my fics using the ICS paradigm. But as things stand, I must say that the PT ICS do not match very well at all with about 99% of the Expanded Universe.

I have to ask, how much of the EU have you read, and here I include comic books, technical guides (essential guides, SWTJ,) game stuff (video and or RPG sources), etc. etc. As I noted above, exposure really influences that, as does personal knoweldge/education (I know you do some quasi-analysis, I'm sure you know how time consuming it is and how difficult it can be to explain something to a dense person.)

Regarding the Acclamators, I can think of a number of reasons for the apparent lack of naval weaponry seen in The Clone Wars so far, from a simple screw-up of the animators (the design of the Munificent bridge was completely different in the movies, IIRC) to an unarmed version of the Acclamator frame (I know that there are at least a couple of known Acclamator variants and Anakin's Venators were supposed to deal with the blockade on their own, so if the landing ships weren't expected to take part in the naval action, it is reasonable that Windu would pick the versions of the ship that offer the most internal space devated to transport of troops/weapons).

Acclamators in AOTC didn't appear to have weaponry either. One might assume they eitehr retract in, or there are some variants that may not be armed. Or perhaps the ships that landed weren't carrying heavy guns (there was a battle in space, perhaps there were armed vessels up there)

[The Romulan Republic]

For me the screencap showing the N-1 fighter's shields envelop R2 in TPM was always enough to prove that R2 had a shield around him.

To be fair, those are two completely different designs. Though one would expect the X-wing, which appears to be an overall superior fighter, to have at least as good a shield.

[ray245]

Unless Star wars was created to consistent in regards to all the technical details in regards to things like firepower, acceleration and etc, the ICS cannot be a good representation of Star Wars.

In other words, the only way for to say ICS is a good representation is having an Engineer or physicists writing the movies and directing all the special effects.

[Ghost Rider]

Unless Star wars was created to consistent in regards to all the technical details in regards to things like firepower, acceleration and etc, the ICS cannot be a good representation of Star Wars.

In other words, the only way for to say ICS is a good representation is having an Engineer or physicists writing the movies and directing all the special effects.

Do you actually read what you say, or do you fucking babble?

Go back, look at what is being said, what you said and think for just half a second how fucking stupid you are babbling about. Read VT-16's first post on this topic. Then read Bounty's response, and then Ender's.

[ray245]

Unless Star wars was created to consistent in regards to all the technical details in regards to things like firepower, acceleration and etc, the ICS cannot be a good representation of Star Wars.

In other words, the only way for to say ICS is a good representation is having an Engineer or physicists writing the movies and directing all the special effects.

Do you actually read what you say, or do you fucking babble?

Go back, look at what is being said, what you said and think for just half a second how fucking stupid you are babbling about. Read VT-16's first post on this topic. Then read Bounty's response, and then Ender's.

I admit I did babble in my post, and I have yet to correct my habit of reflex posting totally. I think what I am trying to say is this, that the ICS feels somewhat disconnected from the rest of EU especially in many case. Discoonnected from the whole Star Wars series as a whole, which includes all the EU novels and comic books.

While the ICS never really disputed what has happened in the movies and was written as a technical book for fans, it seems like many authors or even the CGI crew making the Clone Wars series never really bothered to use the ICS as a technical reference guide in their stories.

A better way to put it will be they failed to make use of the ICS in a proper manner. Those authors may bother with finding out what is the name of the Canons and how many heavy canons a warship have, but they don't really understand how does those weapons work, and what is the actually effect it has under different circumstances.

Like what is the difference between a ship armed with two medium Turbolasers as opposed to one heavy Turbolasers? What happens when the front part of the ship was hit as opposed to the rear of the ship?

[Bounty]

For me the screencap showing the N-1 fighter's shields envelop R2 in TPM was always enough to prove that R2 had a shield around him.

To be fair, those are two completely different designs. Though one would expect the X-wing, which appears to be an overall superior fighter, to have at least as good a shield.

I would also question why a shield would be designed to specifically bypass the R2 unit when it apparently has no trouble covering other protrusions like the engine intakes or the greeblies in the rear. Especially when the R2 is a pretty vital piece of equipment.

[nightmare]

I would also question why a shield would be designed to specifically bypass the R2 unit when it apparently has no trouble covering other protrusions like the engine intakes or the greeblies in the rear. Especially when the R2 is a pretty vital piece of equipment.

What are you talking about? Last time I checked, bleedthrough was still possible.