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OK, so the entire GFFA is ridiculously minimalist. This is because most people would rather read a story where a small group of people can have some effect on the fate of whatever the hell it's about. So if you want the fate of the galaxy, you have to make that turn on something small enough that it's not utterly dumb to have a few people in the right place at the right time make the difference.

On the subject of the Navy, has anyone ever thought about the command and control problems of running a thousand-strong fleet, never mind a hundred-thousand-strong one? Somewhere, there must come a point where any further tactical concentration of force is utterly counter-productive, especially as expended ordnance in space keeps going so you're in serious danger of hitting your allies with every miss. Hell, if you start microjumping you can shoot yourself down - and quite easily. In other words, the maximum useful tactical unit is a damn sight smaller than the fleets at the end of RotJ - that's why Ackbar's tactics make a sort of sense. On the logistical/strategic scale, the sector is too big by an order of magnitude to be a fleet sub-division - what useful contribution can a command over 50,000 worlds make to the defence any of them? Not the ships, the actual officers and men supposedly in charge of disposing of them? Why have them? Except that you have to, because there's a galaxy-spanning fleet in charge of them

The reason the Empire shrinks in the EU isn't that authors have never thought about the size of the Empire - it's that they have, they've concluded that it's just too big to be any use, too big to exist, too big to possibly suspend disbelief if you actually start writing it down and asking people to pay. The majority of the Empire wouldn't have noticed it was an Empire before it was the Republic again. The only thing an Emperor or any central government can be (without the Dark Side, anyway) is a semi-mythical figurehead that you hear from maybe once in your lifetime, to announce that, say, the galaxy is being invaded. Why would any world, ever, pay tax to something like that? It's never going to notice, you're a rounding error. Either the Empire is permanently disintegrating and only the Emperor's megalomania even maintains the pretence that it rules a fraction of the galaxy, or it just can't exist. A few thousand worlds is at least conceivable, the GFFA as it logically ought to be just isn't.

WH40K, say, is even more stupid, but at least some of its writers have an idea how insane the Imperium's size must make it. Which works, if you're taking Grimdark to really, really ridiculous heights to create a bureaucracy that would scare Kafka, but you can't possibly take it even semi-seriously. Either you get very, very silly novels because the scale makes any individual involvement look vastly unrealistic, or you accept a degree of minimalism - which I will accept has been carried too far.

Split ...read the fucking rules. I mean that think was nearly a year old.

I won't cover the rest of the gut instincts or it cannot be or what not.

Regarding the thread, can't we say the same about modern society? I don't think anyone back in the 18th or 17th century could've thought a country of nearly 300 million people would've been at all manageable, but the USA today is doing relatively just fine as a government and a people. Or the thought of coordinating a military that's fighting a huge war on nearly opposite ends of the worlds such as the USA was doing for the Pacific and European theater at WW2.

As for your second example with the whole Emperir, figurehead, and tax thing; well think about it. Obama is likely a man you will never meet in your entire lifetime, and only hear occasionally on TV or the internet. Same with the IRS or government, we only hear about them on the news or when we have to file our taxes. But we file our taxes anyway, don't we? Millions of people across the country could opt not to simply because they are so and so distance away from Washington, but they for the vast majority do so.

Someone else can put what I'm trying to say much more eloquently.

So, you're saying that the Empire is too big to have existed, because it couldn't possibly be able to effectively hold together that much space and communicate across it, even though it did? In a galaxy where civilian ships can go from one end to the other in a day, you're saying that it's not possible for a galaxy spanning government to exist?

Somewhere, there must come a point where any further tactical concentration of force is utterly counter-productive, especially as expended ordnance in space keeps going so you're in serious danger of hitting your allies with every miss.

That only applies if your ships are in each others line of fire. Space is big enough that even with billiond, there will still be space to jam more guns into the front. Come on- lets try so math. Lets say a SD is 1km by 1km square and they can engage at 10000 km. Using area for a sphere (pi*r^2) and taking half of that we get we get about 157,000,000 km^2 that you can fit ships in a half shell against your opponent. Even a million SDs would take up less than 1% of the area.

On the logistical/strategic scale, the sector is too big by an order of magnitude to be a fleet sub-division - what useful contribution can a command over 50,000 worlds make to the defence any of them? Not the ships, the actual officers and men supposedly in charge of disposing of them? Why have them?

It depends heavily on how built up said worlds are. It could be that this is the smallest size fleet that is effectively unstopable against any possible opponent, but that it needs this many worlds to supply it because many of the worlds are poor, underpopulated or lack facilities to provide for the fleet.

It's never going to notice, you're a rounding error.

Fear will keep the taxpayers in line. Fear of the fleet. Fear of what happens to those found behind in their taxes.

Either the Empire is permanently disintegrating and only the Emperor's megalomania even maintains the pretence that it rules a fraction of the galaxy, or it just can't exist.

The Empire mostly uses intermediaries to run systems. The Empire rules the galaxy because all those factions admit the supremacy of the Empire and their obedience to it.

Machiavelli Jr wrote:OK, so the entire GFFA is ridiculously minimalist. This is because most people would rather read a story where a small group of people can have some effect on the fate of whatever the hell it's about. So if you want the fate of the galaxy, you have to make that turn on something small enough that it's not utterly dumb to have a few people in the right place at the right time make the difference.

If so, you need it smaller than modern-day nations, since most of those cannot realistically be changed by a few underdogs. How large a Rebel army would you need to topple the US federal government? That particular aspect was never all that realistic, nor supposed to be, really (although it helps that in the EU, Palpatine deliberately designed the Empire to break up if he was incapacitated).

On the subject of the Navy, has anyone ever thought about the command and control problems of running a thousand-strong fleet, never mind a hundred-thousand-strong one?

Um, yes. "Doc" Smith did so already in the '40s with his Lensman series, made it quite a major point in fact. His solution? Better command and control facilities, communications, computer assistance, and so on. You do know the Empire has access to quantum computers and faster than light "radio", no?

Somewhere, there must come a point where any further tactical concentration of force is utterly counter-productive, especially as expended ordnance in space keeps going so you're in serious danger of hitting your allies with every miss. Hell, if you start microjumping you can shoot yourself down - and quite easily. In other words, the maximum useful tactical unit is a damn sight smaller than the fleets at the end of RotJ - that's why Ackbar's tactics make a sort of sense.

One unjustified assumption and a questionable inference that does not logically follow, even given the premises.

On the logistical/strategic scale, the sector is too big by an order of magnitude to be a fleet sub-division - what useful contribution can a command over 50,000 worlds make to the defence any of them? Not the ships, the actual officers and men supposedly in charge of disposing of them? Why have them? Except that you have to, because there's a galaxy-spanning fleet in charge of them

The Sector has a level of force assigned to it because it is the major political sub-division in the Empire (and before it, the Republic), not because it is the optimum fleet size. And the pan-Galactic Imperial Navy obviously is not supposed to be concentrated in any one place at any one time; its objective is to defend Imperial assets throughout from internal or external aggression, which is why it is sub-divided into numerous smaller commands.

The reason the Empire shrinks in the EU isn't that authors have never thought about the size of the Empire - it's that they have, they've concluded that it's just too big to be any use, too big to exist, too big to possibly suspend disbelief if you actually start writing it down and asking people to pay.

Yes, we know they are morons who have the "No Big Numbers" gut feeling.

The majority of the Empire wouldn't have noticed it was an Empire before it was the Republic again. The only thing an Emperor or any central government can be (without the Dark Side, anyway) is a semi-mythical figurehead that you hear from maybe once in your lifetime, to announce that, say, the galaxy is being invaded.

Yet another unjustified assumption. What do you base this off? As has been pointed out, most people alive today will not see Obama in person, but thanks to television you can be sure all but the most backwards corners of the Earth will know who he is. The same is true for the Empire, courtesy of Holovision. You are basically disregarding the impact of cheap and easy faster than light communication.

Your entire argument comes down to an argument from personal incredulity.

Why would any world, ever, pay tax to something like that? It's never going to notice, you're a rounding error. Either the Empire is permanently disintegrating and only the Emperor's megalomania even maintains the pretence that it rules a fraction of the galaxy, or it just can't exist.

Again, you ignore communications. Historically, a state could not be kept together over a larger area than, say, a typical European country, or else central power would be too weak to control its outer provinces (as in, not able to deliver and enforce its orders in a reasonable timespan). Modern communications change all that. Take a good look at your argument, and then think about how much of it would apply to the United States in lieu of telephones, telegraphs, television . . . except we have all those, so it is a pointless argument to make.

A few thousand worlds is at least conceivable, the GFFA as it logically ought to be just isn't.

Again, an unjustified argument based on gut feeling, personal incredulity and failure to compute with the established technological factors of the Star Wars galaxy.

WH40K, say, is even more stupid, but at least some of its writers have an idea how insane the Imperium's size must make it.

The Imperium does not have reliable and cheap faster than light communications, which is exactly what makes it stupid and feudalistic (or rather, a large part of what does so). It is not remotely comparable to the GE in this regard.

Which works, if you're taking Grimdark to really, really ridiculous heights to create a bureaucracy that would scare Kafka, but you can't possibly take it even semi-seriously.

What would a Founding Father think of the bureaucracy in Washington today? My guess is, he would be horrified . . . if he could even comprehend its sheer scope. A more powerful government necessitates a bigger government by default.

Either you get very, very silly novels because the scale makes any individual involvement look vastly unrealistic, or you accept a degree of minimalism - which I will accept has been carried too far.

Or, as most of us have probably said at some point, scale down the character involvement. Not every story arc needs to be about an uber galactic threat; you could make a perfect epic about a single Sector, or Hell, a single planet (somehow, novels set on Earth in real life can still manage to work . . .). As it is, when the galaxy is threatened every other weak that is mightily cheapened anyway, even were the authors to write the threats on a proper scale (the Vong at least tried, after half the series or so).

How does he go from 'commanding thousands or hundreds of thousands of ships is a challenge' to 'only tactical units thirty and below are viable'? That's an outrageous leap.

Stark wrote:How does he go from 'commanding thousands or hundreds of thousands of ships is a challenge' to 'only tactical units thirty and below are viable'? That's an outrageous leap.

Shhh...... You don't want to tell him that the Americans commanded hundreds of ships, and had a thousand ship navy with primitive radio and using paper maps and models to represent ships. And of course, thousand of planes.

Neither do you want to tell him how the Royal Navy had hundreds of ships via primitive telegraph and flag signalling, and were able to coordinate actions with tens of ships with flag signals.

He implies, to me anyway, that he thinks the Imperial Fleet is some how supposed to work as one giant fleet in some scenarios as opposed to thousands and thousands of commands and task forces. I can see his skepticism for millions of ships holding formation in one gigantic blob on an operation, but I see little need for a complete muster of the OOB of the Imperial Navy. Rather it is a Star Fleet as an institution rather than a formation of vessels and smaller 'fleets' provide better coverage and CCC.

Star Wars has demonstrated rather impressive computation abilities. Given such examples, along with mentions of quantum computers and "tachyonic processors", I really cannot see why they should not be able to manage hugely impressive fleets with dedicated computer assistance, were the Imperial Operations Command by some token to deem it gainful or necessary to do so. Of course, it is hard to imagine a scenario where they would need millions of ISDs in any one place . . .

I think realistic assessments of traffic make it imaginable that there could be at least tens of thousands in a dedicated action around a major commercial and population hub, like say - Coruscant or Kuat. Really, the numbers we're given for those worlds isn't enough for basic policing functions such as traffic control, customs duties, and counterterrorism. The mass-energy of a large freighter can easily be on the level of a BDZ operation. Traffic will have to be well-controlled, with resources available to deal with any problems should they arise.

Knife wrote:He implies, to me anyway, that he thinks the Imperial Fleet is some how supposed to work as one giant fleet in some scenarios as opposed to thousands and thousands of commands and task forces. I can see his skepticism for millions of ships holding formation in one gigantic blob on an operation, but I see little need for a complete muster of the OOB of the Imperial Navy. Rather it is a Star Fleet as an institution rather than a formation of vessels and smaller 'fleets' provide better coverage and CCC.

Actually, my understanding based on the old threads was that fleets didn't nessissarily maintain formation once the battle was joined, but that once the fleets closed it might just disintegrate into one big chaotic brawl, with lots of individual ship dules but no complicated formations. Was I missinformed?

In either case, though, I've never heard any mention in Star Wars of massive million-ship fleets. Didn't Pellaon reflect in Heir to the Empire that 4 ISDs plus support ships was a big deal? With a galaxy that size, it makes sense that the fleet would be spread out in smaller task forces. So the above makes sense on that count.

The Romulan Republic wrote:

Knife wrote:He implies, to me anyway, that he thinks the Imperial Fleet is some how supposed to work as one giant fleet in some scenarios as opposed to thousands and thousands of commands and task forces. I can see his skepticism for millions of ships holding formation in one gigantic blob on an operation, but I see little need for a complete muster of the OOB of the Imperial Navy. Rather it is a Star Fleet as an institution rather than a formation of vessels and smaller 'fleets' provide better coverage and CCC.

Actually, my understanding based on the old threads was that fleets didn't nessissarily maintain formation once the battle was joined, but that once the fleets closed it might just disintegrate into one big chaotic brawl, with lots of individual ship dules but no complicated formations. Was I missinformed?

In either case, though, I've never heard any mention in Star Wars of massive million-ship fleets. Didn't Pellaon reflect in Heir to the Empire that 4 ISDs plus support ships was a big deal? With a galaxy that size, it makes sense that the fleet would be spread out in smaller task forces. So the above makes sense on that count.

You are remebering from either Wongs site or Episodes 3 and 6.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... ctics.html

Battle lines are not used. Fleets travel in formation which break up when combat is joined, as seen in ROTJ. The Rebel and Imperial fleets began exchanging long-range fire without any regard for formation, although Emperor Palpatine's decisions ultimately led to an Imperial defeat despite what was probably superior firepower. Piett's ships engaged long-range fire with the Rebel fleet as described in the ROTJ novelization, but they apparently targeted smaller ships before larger ships for the purpose of prolonging Palpatine's dramatic demonstration. Even Jerjerrod chose his targets in the same manner, aiming the first superlaser blast at the Liberty rather than the far more massive and heavily armed Rebel flagship Home One. On the other hand, Ackbar wisely concentrated his fleet's firepower on the Imperial flagship Executor first..

Tactics of maneuver are non-existent. Capital ships simply exchange fire with enemy capital ships, without regard for formations or "flanking", "encirclement", or "breakthrough" maneuvers.

As for million ship fleets, if you count fighters you could wasily get that many. For actual capital ships, the Empire is supposed to number in excess of hundreds of thousands. It might hit millions, but I doubt they would all be in one place at the same time.

Pellaon isn't exactly a great source.

Samuel wrote:You are remebering from either Wongs site or Episodes 3 and 6.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tac ... ctics.html

Battle lines are not used. Fleets travel in formation which break up when combat is joined, as seen in ROTJ. The Rebel and Imperial fleets began exchanging long-range fire without any regard for formation, although Emperor Palpatine's decisions ultimately led to an Imperial defeat despite what was probably superior firepower. Piett's ships engaged long-range fire with the Rebel fleet as described in the ROTJ novelization, but they apparently targeted smaller ships before larger ships for the purpose of prolonging Palpatine's dramatic demonstration. Even Jerjerrod chose his targets in the same manner, aiming the first superlaser blast at the Liberty rather than the far more massive and heavily armed Rebel flagship Home One. On the other hand, Ackbar wisely concentrated his fleet's firepower on the Imperial flagship Executor first..

Tactics of maneuver are non-existent. Capital ships simply exchange fire with enemy capital ships, without regard for formations or "flanking", "encirclement", or "breakthrough" maneuvers.

That's the kind of thing I was reffering to, yes. I'd actually forgotten that particular analysys by Wong, so thanks for reminding me.

Pellaon isn't exactly a great source.

Why not? He's spent many years serving as an officer in the fleet. You'd think he'd be fairly informed on the usual tactics and fleet compositions of the Empire.

Er....except for the pincher maneuver they used to trap the rebel fleet.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Why not? He's spent many years serving as an officer in the fleet. You'd think he'd be fairly informed on the usual tactics and fleet compositions of the Empire.

He also spent decades of that service as a commander, so he was not exactly at the top of the promotion list. On top of that, he is canonically on record as making utterly moronic statements (such as the famous "the construction of the Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire!" one in Darksaber), and he also worshipped Thrawn and supported the "brilliant" Daala's terroristic ambitions. In short, he is borderline insane, and one should not take anything he says for granted as true unless corroborated.

Darth Hoth wrote:He also spent decades of that service as a commander, so he was not exactly at the top of the promotion list.

So? He was no Nelson, but that hardly makes him incompetent

On top of that, he is canonically on record as making utterly moronic statements (such as the famous "the construction of the Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire!" one in Darksaber)

Again, so? He's a (evidently somewhat ill-informed) naval officer, not an economist.

he also worshipped Thrawn

As did pretty much the entire galaxy.

supported the "brilliant" Daala's terroristic ambitions.

He supported the one person who had the initiative and ruthlessness to reunify the warlords into a single entity. Daala managed to fuck up pretty much everything else she tried her hand at, but she succeeded on that point, and should be given credit where credit's due

In short, he is borderline insane, and one should not take anything he says for granted as true unless corroborated.

In short you've shown nothing save that Pellaeon isn't infallible. Whip crack away.

Regarding the statement about being bankrupted by the Executor, while I have not read the exact quote, it sounds like something so utterly illogical that one must either dismiss it, or go to great lengths to rationalize it. However, their are probably better ways to rationalize it than assuming that Pellaeon was certifiably retarded, when his conduct otherwise does not indicate such (unambitious and unimaginative, perhaps. A coward, maybe. But not stupid. The fact that Thrawn allowed him to serve such a prominent role should speak volumes).

Please, I'd really like to see anything comparably idiotic he said. As for the Daala incident, again, not a book I've read, but I feel that Daala isn't nearly as stupid as most people think. People talk about how she was trying to threaten the galaxy with 4 ISDs, but as I remember the Jedi Academy Trilogy, she was basically planning to conduct a terror campaign for revenge. I don't recall her ever stating an intent to take or hold ground. He plan was to fuck up the Alliance with terrorist attacks, which the modern world has shown even a small number of woefully ill-equipped fools could do successfully. Bearing in mind that she was using tactics over a decade old, as well. People might also argue that she got her rank by sleeping with Tarkin, but even if that is true, it doesn't prove in and of itself that she was incompetent.

While my knowledge of Daala is limited to reading most of Jedi Academy in high school and reading about her in places like this, I'm inclined to view her as a fairly average officer in the Empire, who climbed the chain a bit faster than most by fucking her boss, but was not extraordinarily incompetent so much as she was ill-equipped, behind the times, and rather unlucky.

Didn't Death Star say that Daala was a promising officer until she had a head injury or something?

Captain Seafort wrote:So? He was no Nelson, but that hardly makes him incompetent

I am sure Illuminatus will not mind if I quote his rebuttal to this from the last time it came up:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It had more than that; and that's a single counterexample. I don't know why when WEG obviously deals more with Rimworld sectors (the ISB is really an internal rebel document on Imperial preparedness and structure) that a single example means we should completely throw out the ISB's statements as opposed to regarding Elrood as a rare exception (inevitable in thousands upon thousands of sectors). Why all the desperation to validate Pelleaon, who is legally considered an incompetent failure. Yes I know all the Zahnites and such are about to descend and say unfair! But his record is terrible, and canon actually establishes that "unlike some military organizations, promotion of Imperial officers is mandatory within a certain amount of time, unless adequate proof of incompetence or dishonesty exists" [emphasis mine, thanks to Publius for the reference] (Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope). Pelleaon was officially considered incompetent and/or dishonest in order to have failed to be advanced for DECADES. So in light of that, why would we cling to the figure which makes least sense rationally, with plenty of documented sources and circumstantial evidence at the highest canon which refutes it?

Again, so? He's a (evidently somewhat ill-informed) naval officer, not an economist.

Apparently Pellaeon is not the only minimalist here . . .

When the Executor-class Super Star Destroyer is canonically established as the standard Sector Command Ship (Starships of the Galaxy and other sources), he is off by quite a large margin, since this means there were manufactured at least thousands of them. What would you call a general officer who said, "That's impossible! A single M1A1 Abrams tank nearly bankrupted the United States, we can't have built another one!" when he was inspecting an armoured division? An idiot, most likely, and were you his superior you would probably write him an efficiency report sufficient to bust him down to PFC.

On top of that, he made other similarly retarded statements, such as the one that the sum total of the Imperial Navy's deployed assets never exceeded 25,000 Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

As did pretty much the entire galaxy.

Not with quite the same religious fervour.

He supported the one person who had the initiative and ruthlessness to reunify the warlords into a single entity. Daala managed to fuck up pretty much everything else she tried her hand at, but she succeeded on that point, and should be given credit where credit's due

He thought she had a reasonable chance of taking on the New Republic in a conventional campaign with something like, what, hundreds of ISDs under her command. Again, he shows himself as completely ignorant of very basic facts of scale and military strategy in the galaxy.

In short you've shown nothing save that Pellaeon isn't infallible. Whip crack away.

Concession accepted.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Regarding the statement about being bankrupted by the Executor, while I have not read the exact quote, it sounds like something so utterly illogical that one must either dismiss it, or go to great lengths to rationalize it. However, their are probably better ways to rationalize it than assuming that Pellaeon was certifiably retarded, when his conduct otherwise does not indicate such (unambitious and unimaginative, perhaps. A coward, maybe. But not stupid.

If it was an isolated incident, perhaps, but I have shown other examples showing that it was not. Canonically, he was considered incompetent and/or dishonest (hence left out from promotion) and has consistently shown himself to be unaware of the most basic facts of scale. Yes, we can assume he is stupid and ignorant.

The fact that Thrawn allowed him to serve such a prominent role should speak volumes).

Yes, because his other protégés have shown themselves as such wonders (Voss Parck in the Hand of Thrawn duology basically came across as an alarmist paranoid with delusions of grandeur).

Please, I'd really like to see anything comparably idiotic he said.

Two other examples have been provided.

As for the Daala incident, again, not a book I've read, but I feel that Daala isn't nearly as stupid as most people think. People talk about how she was trying to threaten the galaxy with 4 ISDs, but as I remember the Jedi Academy Trilogy, she was basically planning to conduct a terror campaign for revenge. I don't recall her ever stating an intent to take or hold ground. He plan was to fuck up the Alliance with terrorist attacks, which the modern world has shown even a small number of woefully ill-equipped fools could do successfully.

And she could not manage that. Her "tactics" were retarded no matter what strategic objective she had set up; I can provide specific examples if you like. Starting right with the Sullustan ship she hijacked.

Bearing in mind that she was using tactics over a decade old, as well.

Yes, in a galaxy with relative technological stasis over tens of millennia, missing out on a decade's innovations will woefully cripple you . . .

People might also argue that she got her rank by sleeping with Tarkin, but even if that is true, it doesn't prove in and of itself that she was incompetent.

No. Her actions and command decisions, however, do.

While my knowledge of Daala is limited to reading most of Jedi Academy in high school and reading about her in places like this, I'm inclined to view her as a fairly average officer in the Empire, who climbed the chain a bit faster than most by fucking her boss, but was not extraordinarily incompetent so much as she was ill-equipped, behind the times, and rather unlucky.

You ought to reread the books, then.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:It had more than that; and that's a single counterexample. I don't know why when WEG obviously deals more with Rimworld sectors (the ISB is really an internal rebel document on Imperial preparedness and structure) that a single example means we should completely throw out the ISB's statements as opposed to regarding Elrood as a rare exception (inevitable in thousands upon thousands of sectors). Why all the desperation to validate Pelleaon, who is legally considered an incompetent failure. Yes I know all the Zahnites and such are about to descend and say unfair! But his record is terrible, and canon actually establishes that "unlike some military organizations, promotion of Imperial officers is mandatory within a certain amount of time, unless adequate proof of incompetence or dishonesty exists" [emphasis mine, thanks to Publius for the reference] (Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope). Pelleaon was officially considered incompetent and/or dishonest in order to have failed to be advanced for DECADES. So in light of that, why would we cling to the figure which makes least sense rationally, with plenty of documented sources and circumstantial evidence at the highest canon which refutes it?

Darth Hoth wrote:When the Executor-class Super Star Destroyer is canonically established as the standard Sector Command Ship (Starships of the Galaxy and other sources), he is off by quite a large margin, since this means there were manufactured at least thousands of them. What would you call a general officer who said, "That's impossible! A single M1A1 Abrams tank nearly bankrupted the United States, we can't have built another one!" when he was inspecting an armoured division? An idiot, most likely, and were you his superior you would probably write him an efficiency report sufficient to bust him down to PFC.

The standard Sector Command Ship? Since when? My knowledge of the EU is somewhat limited, but they hardly seemed that common. Also, weren't they only built starting around the Battle of Yavin?

Also, we're not talking about him being stupid, we're talking about him being utterly retarded. How the fuck could someone miss the fact that SSDs were the standard command ship of every sector, if what you claim is true? As much as I would like to respect canon, this is one of those statements (like "3 million clones") that it might be wise to just disregard as incompatible with the rest of the universe. But no, we instead have to start with the extremely illogical statement and then justify it by portraying Pellaeon as unimaginably retarded, when his behavior elsewhere does not nessissarily justify it. It is like trying to justify the numbers for the Grand Army by concluding that most of the Jedi, Senate, and media were complete retards. Canon or not, at some point something is so stupid that you might just have to dismiss it to avoid concluding that the entire universe is composed of morons. Perhaps this is one of those points.

In other words, I will not accept one extreem example as proof of Pellaeon's idiocy. Unless you can show from other examples that he really is that stupid, I feel it is wiser to disregard the one exception as evidence of his stupidity.

On top of that, he made other similarly retarded statements, such as the one that the sum total of the Imperial Navy's deployed assets never exceeded 25,000 Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

What's wrong with that? 25,000 Star Destroyers (especially if it aplies only to Imperator class SDs) is not exactly a tiny number. Yes, I know its a big galaxy, but throw in hyperdrive and all the far more numerous support ships, and that number seems fairly believable. Dismissing established canon is a rather drastic step, and I hardly think its justified here.

If you're going to use a canon statement as proof of a character's stupidity simply because you don't like it, then this discussion is pointless. Why don't you just go rewrite the entire Star Wars franchise the way you like it, and when you're done, we can debate that?

He thought she had a reasonable chance of taking on the New Republic in a conventional campaign with something like, what, hundreds of ISDs under her command. Again, he shows himself as completely ignorant of very basic facts of scale and military strategy in the galaxy.

The Rebels did it starting with less. Besides, these were die-hard Imperial loyalists, so their was probably a certian level of propoganda induced blindness. And its not like the New Republic didn't turn into quite the pathetic government on deffense matters if the Yuzzan Vong war was any indication.

I will donate this small piece of advice. Either learn more EU or don't bandy "You think...". They can choose where to hit you and at what points and you're demonstrating that you cannot refute except what you believe. It's a poor place to stand in a debate.

Darth Hoth wrote:If it was an isolated incident, perhaps, but I have shown other examples showing that it was not. Canonically, he was considered incompetent and/or dishonest (hence left out from promotion) and has consistently shown himself to be unaware of the most basic facts of scale. Yes, we can assume he is stupid and ignorant.

Sorry, the examples you've given are hardly enough to persuade me that he's that stupid. No one's suggesting he was a military genius, and its possible that he was iggnorent of a lot of the scale and structure of the military, if that knowledge fell outside his responsibilities as an officer. I'll gladly concede that. But in trying to make that point, I think you have exaggerated the man's ignorance and incompetence beyond what is justified based on his character, dialog, and actions in the EU. As for the specific examples you gave, I refuted them above, and will do so again further in this post.

Pellaeon (at least in The Thrawn Trilogy) is not so much stupid as he is average, and perhaps a bit cowardly (the latter could explain the lack of promotion just as well as stupidity or incompetence).

Yes, because his other protégés have shown themselves as such wonders (Voss Parck in the Hand of Thrawn duology basically came across as an alarmist paranoid with delusions of grandeur).

Haven't read those books, so I don't know.

Two other examples have been provided.

His support for Daala and the 25,000 Star Destroyers comment?

Those prove nothing. I haven't read the books relating to Daala beyond the Jedi Academy Trilogy, but from what's been posted in this thread it doesn't sound that unreasonable. Daala's incompetance is in my opinion exaggerated, and believing that she could win seems quite plausible in the context of the New Republic's military ineptitude, the fact that the Rebellion fought the Empire with less, and the fact that these are people who would have spent most of their adult lives hearing (and preaching) Imperial propoganda.

And she could not manage that. Her "tactics" were retarded no matter what strategic objective she had set up; I can provide specific examples if you like. Starting right with the Sullustan ship she hijacked.

Please do provide those examples. I don't own the books given their relative suckiness, and I'm not going to do the work of proving your case for you regardless.

Yes, in a galaxy with relative technological stasis over tens of millennia, missing out on a decade's innovations will woefully cripple you . . .

Considering that their hadn't been a major war for a millenia when the Clone Wars began, it seems reasonable to believe that they might be reinventing a lot of military tactics and strategies. Also, even if the basic technologies were largely the same, the scale appears to have increased. As far as I am aware, Death Star scale weaponry was pretty much unprecidented in recent history.

No. Her actions and command decisions, however, do.

Again, the burden of proof is on you.

From the DESB, the Empire had one or multiple SSDs or torpedo spheres available to the "average sector commander or moff" throughout the Galactic Civil War. We don't know whether some of these refers to the centuries- or decades-old warships that were built under the Republic, or if it was brand new designs built at each sector deep dock. With the decentralization at the Empire's height, individual moffs could just commission whatever naval project they felt would advance their forces, after all.